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[Overclocking Support Thread] MSI X99 OC & GAMING Motherboards


mr. robot

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Btw some guy on the MSI forum is claiming there is an issue with Godlike 1.4 bios flashing killing ram. Crazy but true!

 

 

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Wow thats seems crazy. I hope this is not true. But my problems with the board are all over the place. Can you give me a link to the thread in the msi forum please? Thanks

 

Btw. "good" (not really) to see i am not aloone with the problem. I think i will flash the second bios chip back to version 1.1 and try it again. Some weird stuff is going on with the "Godlike" bios.

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Good one Maarten, dunno if anything above 3333C11 is worthwhile on HSW-E, maybe with Broadwell E it will have a better usage of extra bandwidth...

 

How where the RTLs ? As in the screenshot or tighter ? I had 47-49ish here

 

I couldn't pull this one off with my other hardware man... like Sabi suggested, always dropping channels here 16-24 but not real 32GB in Winblows

Edited by Leeghoofd
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Good one Maarten, dunno if anything above 3333C11 is worthwhile on HSW-E, maybe with Broadwell E it will have a better usage of extra bandwidth...

 

 

 

How where the RTLs ? As in the screenshot or tighter ? I had 47-49ish here

 

 

 

I couldn't pull this one off with my other hardware man... like Sabi suggested, always dropping channels here 16-24 but not real 32GB in Winblows

 

 

 

Admittedly I had been trying on R5E+5930k, so either MSI OC socket is better, or my 5960x has a stronger IMC:

 

9dc5444f3dc039a918a7518a77e7cbc7.jpg

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Wow thats seems crazy. I hope this is not true. But my problems with the board are all over the place. Can you give me a link to the thread in the msi forum please? Thanks

 

Btw. "good" (not really) to see i am not aloone with the problem. I think i will flash the second bios chip back to version 1.1 and try it again. Some weird stuff is going on with the "Godlike" bios.

 

Here is the link: https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=269740.0

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The issue might not only be related to the BIOS flash itself. I've had a stick of RAM going bad while trying to load optimized default before attempting to flash A.40. Was on A.30 at that time, in case it matters.

 

To make it more clear, the stick of RAM stayed dead afterward, RMA'd it already.

Edited by MKroenke
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I got something like this on my msi x99a xpower ac and bios a31.

I wanted to update to a40 and didn't have any usb device in my usb ports which had any bios file on it. My pc didn't boot anymore.

I expected it to look at my hard drive but I forgot to place the bios file directly in the root folder which msi wants.

My second bios with the tc8 bios gave a warning about a missing medium.

The problem was solved after plugging the usb stick in.

Fact is that this part is behind on other manufacturers.

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Does anybody have any idea how to oc the Cache/NB in the newer bios's?

 

Before when I gave "Ring oc 1" option I could go above 4GHz for the cache/NB. In newer bios versions this option doesn't work anymore.

 

Oh and my b die is on 3333MHz cas 10-11-11-11 150 1T now.

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Does anybody have any idea how to oc the Cache/NB in the newer bios's?

 

Before when I gave "Ring oc 1" option I could go above 4GHz for the cache/NB. In newer bios versions this option doesn't work anymore.

 

I looked into the problem.

In my TC.8 bios I set these voltages and speeds:

 

CPU: 5GHz

Cache: 4.8GHz

CPU: 1.35v

VCCIN: 1.9v

Ring 1.15v

SA: 1.1v

VCCIO: 1.05v

 

Ring OC 1: 1.5v

Ring OC 2: Auto (1.5v works as well, maybe it can even go lower)

 

With these settings I can run 5/4.8 without any problems.

With newer bios files (at least A.20 and later) I can not run cache over 4GHz.

When I try thse settings (or lot's of other settigs) it does not work.

 

CPU: 5GHz

Cache: 4.8GHz

CPU: 1.35v

VCCIN: 1.9v

Ring 1.15v

SA: 1.1v

VCCIO: 1.05v

 

Ring OC 1: 1.5v

Ring OC 2: 1.5v (or Auto, 1.14v, 1.45v, 1.8v etc...)

 

When I boot it seems to not give any problem for a long time.

But in the end I get a code 95 on the display.

Code 95 should be: Invalid load current CMOS option or PCI Bus Request Resources

 

My question is if MSI deliberately crippled or disabled this function?

Or is this some kind of bug?

 

This is still an OC board isn't it?

I cannot win any benchmark competition as it is now and I have no good hopes with Broadwell-E comming soon.

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Was wondering if you guys don't mind sharing your memory overclock settings on the Godlike? I've been trying to get 2666 mhz stable without luck on my 5820K on a Zalman CNPS9900Max. Been playing the Division and it keeps crashing and rebooting sometimes I get a message 'Your overclock settings have failed - press F1'. Been keeping the cpu frequency at stock I got the system agent at + 0.50 volts and XMP enabled on my HyperX 2800mhz Predators. Is there any thing else?

 

Thanks

 

I need more info to be able to help you, could you provide the part/model number of your memory and your complete current OC settings? Are you also experiencing similar crashes in other games/softwares?

 

Well I have a bad feeling about this board and that it's not the 'Godlike' board it was billed as. I mean I lose confidence when I see them release a bios and take it back. I also get those 'Overclock failed press F1' messages.

 

I think you should see it the other way around: Be confident that we have been able to quickly fix an issue and release a better BIOS version shortly after it was noticed. ;)

 

At least they kind of fixed my double post cold boot issue sort of. Works and starts up smoothly non stop at default bios settings but not at all if I change just one bios setting!

 

What was (is?) your "double post cold boot issue" in the end?

I remember that you have complained several times about it in previous posts, but you never detailed it clearly to me thus we couldn't even try to reproduce it!

 

Btw some guy on the MSI forum is claiming there is an issue with Godlike 1.4 bios flashing killing ram. Crazy but true!

 

How can you claim this is true without any proof?

Here is some technical fact for you: That is not even technically possible, as updating BIOS doesn't have any access to RAM, only to BIOS EPROM.

The only possible way that a BIOS version could kill memory is if the JEDEC SPD auto-rule was broken and sets crazy high voltage, which is not (As mentioned above I just tested 5 kits with this BIOS and all are alive and working fine).

In that very unlikely case, ALL memory modules would be affected and we would have noticed excessive voltage in validation process, before the BIOS would have even be released.

Edited by pepinorang
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Hi. Thanks for replying. I eventually figured out the 'Failed Overclock press F1' issue. I started over fresh and set SA voltage to Auto where as my seas much lower at .965 vs Auto's at 1.215 volts. I also manually set looser timings and turned off XMP. No more Press F1 error message. I also figured out that my double post cold boot issue was due to setting the M.2 PCH link to M.2 PCI-E. Now setting M.2 to SATA and no more double post. Though earlier bios releases prior to 1.4 would easily double post no matter what you set anything.

 

As far as that guy on MSI forum saying that the flashing killed the memory I'm only the messenger. Personally think he should RMA his board if that's the case. Interesting though way you explained the theoretical reason why it could happen.

 

As far as a better bios release for the board where do I find one?

 

Thanks.

 

Specs:

 

MSI Godlike - 5820K - Hyperx 2800 MHz Predators 32gb

Evga Kingpin 980 Ti

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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For me it seems that XMP is totally broken with latest bios on my Godlike. Also the dram voltage sometimes work and sometimes not. If so my settings work fine. If not i get "overclocking failed pres f1" mostly when booting up after a longer period in standby. I then need to switch voltage in bios for + or - 0.15v for dram and save and reboot and hopefully it boots with 1.35v and above. Mostly it will do not. With XMP enabled it stays strictly at 1.20v and so is when its set it self back.

 

I just tested X99A XPOWER AC/X99A GODLIKE GAMING/X99A GODLIKE GAMING CARBON in a row with latest BIOS versions available and G.SKILL TridentZ 3866, Corsair Vengeance 2666, Corsair Dominator Platinum 2800, HyperX Predator ES 3333, HyperX Predator ES 3466: XMP is working perfectly fine here.

If I understand well your OC issue, it's that your memory isn't fully stable with XMP enabled and you randomly need to increase vDIMM to boot, correct?

What are your memory model number, specs and nominal voltage?

 

Bios 1.0 and 1.1 were working well.

Also remember bios version 1.3 was taken back by MSI and they released version 1.4 . But bios still seems to be broken. With bios 1.2 the problems started. But 1.4 seems even more worse.

 

I can't understand why you are updating your BIOS if your setup was already working properly then?!

Moreover, if new BIOS create issues on your setup why not go back to the previous version which apparently was fine for you?

BIOS 1.3 was pulled out of the website for an issue which is not related to MSI and unless you have access to an early ES Broadwell-E CPU sample, it didn't even concern end-users.

 

my problems with the board are all over the place.

 

Btw. "good" (not really) to see i am not aloone with the problem. I think i will flash the second bios chip back to version 1.1 and try it again. Some weird stuff is going on with the "Godlike" bios.

 

Please elaborate your "problems with the board are all over the place", each separately and clearly with as many details as possible on the issue, the whole setup and settings.

This way I'll be able to help you properly because so far it's unclear to me.

 

Who else has issues with the BIOS?? You are claiming that XMP is broken while davidm71_2 is unable to set a stable OC, how is that an issue?

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Hi. Thanks for replying. I eventually figured out the 'Failed Overclock press F1' issue. I started over fresh and set SA voltage to Auto where as my seas much lower at .965 vs Auto's at 1.215 volts. I also manually set looser timings and turned off XMP. No more Press F1 error message. I also figured out that my double post cold boot issue was due to setting the M.2 PCH link to M.2 PCI-E. Now setting M.2 to SATA and no more double post. Though earlier bios releases prior to 1.4 would easily double post no matter what you set anything.

 

As far as that guy on MSI forum saying that the flashing killed the memory I'm only the messenger. Personally think he should RMA his board if that's the case. Interesting though way you explained the theoretical reason why it could happen.

 

As far as a better bios release for the board where do I find one?

 

Thanks.

 

Specs:

 

MSI Godlike - 5820K - Hyperx 2800 MHz Predators 32gb

Evga Kingpin 980 Ti

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

You should not need to lose timings if the kit is on the QVL list.

Setting proper SA/IO and in some case vDIMM should be sufficient to get memtest stable.

 

Once again, what is a "double post cold boot issue" you never detailed it so I don't even understand what you mean with this...

 

What I meant is that v1.3 had a bug with Broadwell-E not related to MSI, we fixed it and quickly released the better BIOS v1.4.

For Official BIOS releases: http://www.msi.com

For BETA/TEST OC BIOS: This thread (I'll update it later today).

But once again Why update BIOS if your setup is working properly?! There is no valid reason to this, unless specified by MSI...

Edited by pepinorang
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I got something like this on my msi x99a xpower ac and bios a31.

I wanted to update to a40 and didn't have any usb device in my usb ports which had any bios file on it. My pc didn't boot anymore.

I expected it to look at my hard drive but I forgot to place the bios file directly in the root folder which msi wants.

My second bios with the tc8 bios gave a warning about a missing medium.

The problem was solved after plugging the usb stick in.

Fact is that this part is behind on other manufacturers.

 

So you don't follow the correct flash procedure and encounter issues and that's the manufacturer's fault? I see...

 

I looked into the problem.

In my TC.8 bios I set these voltages and speeds:

 

CPU: 5GHz

Cache: 4.8GHz

CPU: 1.35v

VCCIN: 1.9v

Ring 1.15v

SA: 1.1v

VCCIO: 1.05v

 

Ring OC 1: 1.5v

Ring OC 2: Auto (1.5v works as well, maybe it can even go lower)

 

With these settings I can run 5/4.8 without any problems.

With newer bios files (at least A.20 and later) I can not run cache over 4GHz.

When I try thse settings (or lot's of other settigs) it does not work.

 

CPU: 5GHz

Cache: 4.8GHz

CPU: 1.35v

VCCIN: 1.9v

Ring 1.15v

SA: 1.1v

VCCIO: 1.05v

 

Ring OC 1: 1.5v

Ring OC 2: 1.5v (or Auto, 1.14v, 1.45v, 1.8v etc...)

 

When I boot it seems to not give any problem for a long time.

But in the end I get a code 95 on the display.

Code 95 should be: Invalid load current CMOS option or PCI Bus Request Resources

 

My question is if MSI deliberately crippled or disabled this function?

Or is this some kind of bug?

 

This is still an OC board isn't it?

I cannot win any benchmark competition as it is now and I have no good hopes with Broadwell-E comming soon.

 

This has been discussed many, many, many times (last time 5 pages ago), I'm growing tired of people that don't make the effort of a little research in this thread!

 

In TC8 (a TEST BIOS for XOC which as warned by the disclaimer on the main page, may contain bugs) the auto-rule is crippled and it will increase Ring voltages depending on ring ratio, despite of your manual settings.

Which is why you could achieve 4.8GHz Ring with those settings, in reality Ring voltage with 48x ratio was 1.45v not 1.15v (which would never suffice to stabilize at that 4.8GHz).

In newer BIOS versions, the ring auto-rule is working properly and you have to set some voltage manually, which you are doing totally wrong:

 

- Ring 1.15v = It will never get you to 4.8GHz, check the Auto-Rule table below to give you an idea of what is needed.

- Ring OC1 1.5v = This is not needed and might be dangerous for the CPU, 0.95v or AUTO is more than enough!

- Ring OC2 1.5v = That is more like it but this might be too much on aircooling, as said several times in previous page, my recommendation is vRing 1.25v~1.3v and Ring OC2 1.4v~1.45v for 24/7

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=3530&d=1448349323

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The cold boot double post issue is when the board powers on, from a cold powered down state, after three seconds and few bios codes flashing on the LED, the motherboard shuts down for a half second and then powers up again repeating those bios post codes and continuing to boot into Windows. After which it will boot non stop without delay as long as the board is warm and juiced. I first noticed this when I upgraded from the X99S ACK gaming 9 board that had no posting issues but even at default settings the Godlike exhibited this odd behavior. I even tried another brand of ram and same thing happened. So I started over and by a process of elimination found it was the pic-e m.2 setting at fault. One minute later I found out someone else's account detailing the same thing on MSI's support forum. As I have a Samsung 950 pro I thought it's preferable to set it at M.2 PCI-E link mode but I also ready it makes no difference as long as the strap setting is set to Auto. Apparently it does as I got that double post as result of PCi-E mode.

 

As far as XMP timings tripping the Memtest resulting in Press F1 I guess it could be because of my memory controller on the 5820K? I read someone's account in a review somewhere that they're previous ram timings didn't work when they went to the Godlike from an Asus board. So maybe there's something going on with XMP being picky. Speaking of Asus they have a setting called 'Eventual ram voltage' allowing you to set the prepost ram voltage different from the eventual ram voltage. Is there something similar on MSI boards?

 

 

Thanks.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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So you don't follow the correct flash procedure and encounter issues and that's the manufacturer's fault? I see...

 

 

 

This has been discussed many, many, many times (last time 5 pages ago), I'm growing tired of people that don't make the effort of a little research in this thread!

 

In TC8 (a TEST BIOS for XOC which as warned by the disclaimer on the main page, may contain bugs) the auto-rule is crippled and it will increase Ring voltages depending on ring ratio, despite of your manual settings.

Which is why you could achieve 4.8GHz Ring with those settings, in reality Ring voltage with 48x ratio was 1.45v not 1.15v (which would never suffice to stabilize at that 4.8GHz).

In newer BIOS versions, the ring auto-rule is working properly and you have to set some voltage manually, which you are doing totally wrong:

 

- Ring 1.15v = It will never get you to 4.8GHz, check the Auto-Rule table below to give you an idea of what is needed.

- Ring OC1 1.5v = This is not needed and might be dangerous for the CPU, 0.95v or AUTO is more than enough!

- Ring OC2 1.5v = That is more like it but this might be too much on aircooling, as said several times in previous page, my recommendation is vRing 1.25v~1.3v and Ring OC2 1.4v~1.45v for 24/7

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=3530&d=1448349323

 

You tell me that I don't follow the correct procedure for flashing my bios.

I know I forgot something when the file was not in the root folder.

But when I press the update tab in the bios the pc freezes, reboots and hangs again and with every reset you do it hangs after this. This is solved by a complete bios reset (battery).

 

I find it strange that I don't even get a warning.

You say I did something wrong?

No this is a software bug.

 

 

About the cache overclock part.

If your older bios files have these serieus kind of bugs and you get this many questions about it then maybe you should place the right info on the front page.

Now I read the info before and it still was not clear for me. So I will try again.

And about using tc.8. You may hide behind a test bios disclaimer, but you know I for one would do almost anything to get that top score out of the board. We are not boy scouts here.

Maybe I am still waiting for a mature software version of the bios. Is that to much to ask?

And yes I can say this because my first golden cpu was crippled by your beta bios which I got directly from msi to fix a problem.

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Thank you for those settings. I tested the recommended settings and these work better although they were a little high for what was needed for my CPU.

 

I now succeed for 5/4.8 (CPU/Cache)

CPU: 1.35v

VCCIO: 1.05v

vRing: 1.25v

vRing OC1: Auto

vRing OC2: 1.5v (it might go a little lower)

 

And for 5/5 (CPU/Cache):

 

CPU: 1.35v

VCCIO: 1.05v

vRing: 1.35v

vRing OC1: Auto

vRing OC2: 1.52v

 

I checked TC.8 and 1.15v for vRing gave 1.45v in Windows.

Leaving vRing OC2 on auto worked perfectly (as said before).

 

I didn't try any higher clock settings as I was on my SS (and not my Cascade).

Both settings were XTU stable.

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The cold boot double post issue is when the board powers on, from a cold powered down state, after three seconds and few bios codes flashing on the LED, the motherboard shuts down for a half second and then powers up again repeating those bios post codes and continuing to boot into Windows. After which it will boot non stop without delay as long as the board is warm and juiced. I first noticed this when I upgraded from the X99S ACK gaming 9 board that had no posting issues but even at default settings the Godlike exhibited this odd behavior. I even tried another brand of ram and same thing happened. So I started over and by a process of elimination found it was the pic-e m.2 setting at fault. One minute later I found out someone else's account detailing the same thing on MSI's support forum. As I have a Samsung 950 pro I thought it's preferable to set it at M.2 PCI-E link mode but I also ready it makes no difference as long as the strap setting is set to Auto. Apparently it does as I got that double post as result of PCi-E mode.

 

As far as XMP timings tripping the Memtest resulting in Press F1 I guess it could be because of my memory controller on the 5820K? I read someone's account in a review somewhere that they're previous ram timings didn't work when they went to the Godlike from an Asus board. So maybe there's something going on with XMP being picky. Speaking of Asus they have a setting called 'Eventual ram voltage' allowing you to set the prepost ram voltage different from the eventual ram voltage. Is there something similar on MSI boards?

 

 

Thanks.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

What you describe is a normal behavior after CLEAR CMOS, that is the Intel ME firmware that does this as it needs to be reset.

However you seems to encounter this behavior at every boot after normal power off (which is not normal), is it correct?

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The double post is a normal behavior after clear cmos? Please clarify that statement?

 

But yes I encountered this problem after a normal power off (i.e. when psu was shut off). As I detailed prior this happened with every bios release however ver 1.4 almost has fixed the issue as long as M.2 PCH Link is not set to PCI-E mode. No problems booting with SATA M.2 mode. All the other bios releases prior to 1.4 it didn't matter what M.2 PCH Link was set to. Anyhow warm restarts were always issue free.

 

Thanks

 

PS: that MSI thread can be found easily by just a Google search.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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You tell me that I don't follow the correct procedure for flashing my bios.

I know I forgot something when the file was not in the root folder.

But when I press the update tab in the bios the pc freezes, reboots and hangs again and with every reset you do it hangs after this. This is solved by a complete bios reset (battery).

 

I find it strange that I don't even get a warning.

You say I did something wrong?

No this is a software bug.

 

That's not the issue that you described in your previous post but anyway, it wouldn't happen if you strictly follow the correct flashing procedure.

You can find an HOW-TO video on the first page along with MP/BETA BIOS versions (It's for Z87 but there is no major difference with X99):

 

About the cache overclock part.

If your older bios files have these serieus kind of bugs and you get this many questions about it then maybe you should place the right info on the front page.

Now I read the info before and it still was not clear for me. So I will try again.

And about using tc.8. You may hide behind a test bios disclaimer, but you know I for one would do almost anything to get that top score out of the board. We are not boy scouts here.

 

In fact this bug wasn't really a bad thing since it helped you and many others to achieve higher Ring frequency without any knowledge about required settings.

The downside was that auto-rule was taking over manual settings of vRING and vRING OC1/2, which could be annoying if your CPU needed more or less volts than said auto-rule.

However, the absence of this bug in MP/BETA BIOS wouldn't have been an issue for you if you did a little research about what voltages were required for Ring OC, which I posted along with max volts for 24/7 about 5 times in this thread now. But you are right, 5 times is probably not enough and I should probably post a full X99 OC guide on the front page.

 

Maybe I am still waiting for a mature software version of the bios. Is that to much to ask?

And yes I can say this because my first golden cpu was crippled by your beta bios which I got directly from msi to fix a problem.

 

The Ring auto-rule bug was only present in the non-official XOC TEST BIOS TC7/TC8 which are about 1 year old now!

Please, tell me what's not clear in this: ***WARNING : A TEST BIOS IS EXACTLY WHAT ITS NAME IMPLIES AND MIGHT CONTAIN SOME MINOR BUGS.

HOWEVER THEY ARE OPERATIONAL AND MIGHT ALSO IMPROVE OC/COMPATIBILITY, SO USE THOSE BIOS AT YOUR OWN RISK, MSI CANNOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE!

FPT is required to flash Test BIOSes, you can download it from this thread: X99 BIOS, facts, stats and list of mainboards***

And I don't understand what you mean by "mature", at Computex 2015 we did about 10 GFP on this board with TC7 and BIOS only got better since then.

There's no issue with the current MP/BETA BIOS and each new version improve memory compatibility as we keep validating new memory kits in QVL.

I'm curious about "your first golden cpu that was crippled by our beta bios which you got directly from msi to fix a problem", please DO elaborate, I'm all ears...

 

Thank you for those settings. I tested the recommended settings and these work better although they were a little high for what was needed for my CPU.

 

I checked TC.8 and 1.15v for vRing gave 1.45v in Windows.

Leaving vRing OC2 on auto worked perfectly (as said before).

 

I didn't try any higher clock settings as I was on my SS (and not my Cascade).

Both settings were XTU stable.

 

Glad it worked for you, as usual these settings are just a base and voltages need to be fine tuned depending on CPU quality.

Yes, as I said above in TC7/TC8 the auto-rule table I posted before will apply no matter your manual settings, thus it will (almost) always manage to achieve good ring frequency.

Edited by pepinorang
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The double post is a normal behavior after clear cmos? Please clarify that statement?

 

But yes I encountered this problem after a normal power off (i.e. when psu was shut off). As I detailed prior this happened with every bios release however ver 1.4 almost has fixed the issue as long as M.2 PCH Link is not set to PCI-E mode. No problems booting with SATA M.2 mode. All the other bios releases prior to 1.4 it didn't matter what M.2 PCH Link was set to. Anyhow warm restarts were always issue free.

 

Thanks

 

PS: that MSI thread can be found easily by just a Google search.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Yes, as I said above the double post is normal after CLEAR CMOS.

The board will POST once, then reboot right before loading OS and POST again without training the memory.

This happens because after each CLEAR CMOS the Intel ME firmware included in BIOS also needs to be reset.

That wasn't the case with old versions of Intel ME but it's been a long time already that it behave like this.

 

However you said it's happening after turning of the PSU and that might be a bug, let me check this and get back to you asap!

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Yes, as I said above the double post is normal after CLEAR CMOS.

The board will POST once, then reboot right before loading OS and POST again without training the memory.

This happens because after each CLEAR CMOS the Intel ME firmware included in BIOS also needs to be reset.

That wasn't the case with old versions of Intel ME but it's been a long time already that it behave like this.

 

However you said it's happening after turning of the PSU and that might be a bug, let me check this and get back to you asap!

 

 

Yeah this happens when the board has been powered down and discharged. Heres the MSI thread detailing another users account:

 

https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=254837.7

 

Thanks

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Yeah this happens when the board has been powered down and discharged. Heres the MSI thread detailing another users account:

 

https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=254837.7

 

Thanks

 

What do you mean by powered down and discharged? PSU switch off and no more juice in the motherboard?

That actually might be similar for ME as well but I'm already checking this with R&D.

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