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Thinking about points for Enthusiast/Air


Massman

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I don't really see why the points should be adjusted to make some people feel better about what they do. "Teach" people to focus on rankings, not points. I'd like to think that people who start to dabble in any kind of competitive OC are smart enough to see why Extreme scores get more points and rookies should look within class for a relevant point comparison.

 

This ++++ and even rankings are sometimes meeuuuuhhh... don't get too obsessed, just have fun...

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I don't really see why the points should be adjusted to make some people feel better about what they do.

 

Let me bounce this back: is it fine to have the points make people feel worse about what they do?

 

If someone puts in hours of work to fine-tune their system on air cooling, end up first in their class, and only receive 5.8pts. Then see someone randomly running LN2 and receive 20-odd points, just because the frequency is much higher. Is that good for you? :)

 

Your argument of "points shouldn't matter" goes both ways. If they don't matter in your opinion, then you should have no problem accepting additional points for air submissions. It's not mutually exclusive with teaching new overclockers that overclocking is more than just the points.

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Let me bounce this back: is it fine to have the points make people feel worse about what they do?

 

If someone puts in hours of work to fine-tune their system on air cooling, end up first in their class, and only receive 5.8pts. Then see someone randomly running LN2 and receive 20-odd points, just because the frequency is much higher. Is that good for you? :)

 

Your argument of "points shouldn't matter" goes both ways. If they don't matter in your opinion, then you should have no problem accepting additional points for air submissions. It's not mutually exclusive with teaching new overclockers that overclocking is more than just the points.

 

Just get rid of points all together.

I'm sick to death of hearing about points.

 

Just do the rankings per benchmark, per class. Simple and no more bunnyextraction over some imaginary point system that means bunny all in the grand scheme of things.

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Let me bounce this back: is it fine to have the points make people feel worse about what they do?

 

If someone puts in hours of work to fine-tune their system on air cooling, end up first in their class, and only receive 5.8pts. Then see someone randomly running LN2 and receive 20-odd points, just because the frequency is much higher. Is that good for you? :)

 

Your argument of "points shouldn't matter" goes both ways. If they don't matter in your opinion, then you should have no problem accepting additional points for air submissions. It's not mutually exclusive with teaching new overclockers that overclocking is more than just the points.

 

I think that's a BS post and a very dumb counter-comment ....yet I can't argue with it, it DOES work both ways.

 

It's not HWB's job to make people feel better about their work, a user has to figure it out in their own head.

 

 

People who go go-carting at the weekend might take part in a weekend tournament and win out of 30 drivers and get £500... same weekend that the Monaco grand prix is on and see (whoever) win 6-figures and spray champagne.

 

 

They know in advance that that's what the game is. What's the motivation for stepping up? If points are so damned important, then points are the motivator, it sure as sh** ain't gonna be money!

 

A few of HWB's ideas recently seem to suggest that a lot of money is about to dropped into the (upper?) leaderboards and that should be the only real-world motivator and league-separator.

 

If so, better start backing that up.

 

 

If the points are the same, the money is nowhere to be seen and a silicon quirk means that aircooled can score very close to LN2...... what comes next?

Edited by K404
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"Is it really more difficult to reach top-20 with LN2 than it is to reach #1 amongst Enthusiasts?"

Well, points are not rewarded by how difficult it is to get a score or ranking...points are rewarded by how they rank. Which brings me to that I agree the points don't matter, it's the ranking that matters. And it will be screwed up by rewarding aircooling high points. If that is the case then you have to separate the enthusiast from extreme completely. And that does not seem like a good idea...

 

I do not think overclocking will be more popular be quick rewards, it's not candy crush...Overclocking requires a lot of time and effort, if you don't have the patience and interest you will never continue anyway. OC will never be for the masses. I'm fine with that, it's great fun the way it is for those of us who has the special interest needed.

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I feel like we're having two discussions in this thread.

 

1) On the principles of overclocking: "should points matter?"

2) On the practical matter: newbies at HWBOT are often discourage because the only way to get to the top is with LN2 -> what's a solution.

 

I sense this idea is not good enough, and that there's better things to spend our time on. Thanks for the feedback, though! :)

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K404, Rasparthe: it's partially about psychology, but mainly about rewarding overclocking ability fairly. In the slides included in the opening post, you'll find the problem description. The question is: "Is it really more difficult to reach top-20 with LN2 than it is to reach #1 amongst Enthusiasts?"

 

In the current system, the highest reward goes to people who run their hardware using liquid nitrogen. Although part of our mission is to foster and grow the extreme overclocking community, the reality states that not everyone is interested in trying out liquid nitrogen. In fact, the large majority will never go beyond custom water cooling builds. Effectively, that means a person who chooses to never use subzero cooling can only earn a fraction of the points of someone who tries liquid nitrogen. Look at SuperPI 32M: #1 enthusiast has 5.8pts; #20 on LN2 has 35.8pts.

 

This is true, but isn't that the way it should be? But I think this is where you lose me. As K404 said, its all about psychology, since everyone in Enthusiast is in the exact same boat. To answer your first question, I would say they both take an equal amount of effort. Both are pretty hotly contested goals but the playing field is level. No one in EL has the benefit of LN2 cooling so making it to the top of the league is done using the small amounts of globals that are available to them. The only reason to add points is for added bump of pride of competing with the LN2 guys.

 

 

Evaluating your proposal, Rasparthe, I have the sense that we are somewhat on the same page. Your suggestion looks good on paper, but as you mention the arbitrary nature of the "global points multiplier (GPM)" is a problem. That's what's avoided by what I proposed in the opening post. The "multiplier" is establish by taken into consideration how many participants there are within a certain class. In your proposal you run the risk of having an improperly configured GPM that favors a specific class. I can imagine this would've been the case in Sandy Bridge era when ambient cooling systems were competing at the top of the global rankings. This is not a problem with the proposal from the first post for the simple reason that the increase in global points is directly related to the amount of participants, and the amount of participants of a specific class will always be lower or equal to (but not higher) than the amount of overall participants.

 

Not sure, but I think we actually agree on the principle. Thanks for the feedback though, Tony. For some reason I always enjoy reading your contributions here. You're always to the point! :D

 

 

I wouldn't say that I'm sold on your reasoning. My proposal was just an option to get the same effect but to make it easier to understand with a simple multiplier (which all overclockers undestand ;) ).

 

To be truthful though, I'm much more apt to say leave it how it is. I think its well understood that if you want the top scores you have to move to Extreme. If you believe that the low scores are what is causing loss of interest, or lukewarm participation then you should probably be thinking about splitting the scores posted down the lines of done under Extreme or Ambient. Two totally different databases, with everyone participating in one or the other. Or another completely different setup?

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I feel like we're having two discussions in this thread.

 

1) On the principles of overclocking: "should points matter?"

2) On the practical matter: newbies at HWBOT are often discourage because the only way to get to the top is with LN2 -> what's a solution.

 

I sense this idea is not good enough, and that there's better things to spend our time on. Thanks for the feedback, though! :)

 

As an answear to 2) I think alot of it got to do with the current situation that once you do one single submit with cold your sudenly moved up and competing with the pros. My guess is that this stops alot of people from taking the step and buying some DICE just to test it out and thereby missing out the feeling of geting hocked for real.

 

To touch on 1), I kind of guess they do or well not really, but the competition part of them do. Taking myself as an example. Im pretty new here, working my way up in the novice league atm with some oldschool hardware but I already have a Cascade at home, I got results with it worth way more points then what I got registered but I havent uploaded them yet becouse I dont want to fly up into the elite league yet as I cant compete there with the expensive new hardware it takes to get global points.

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