Adjustment Global Points - General Discussion

[K404]

The only way to reduce your opponent's points is by improving the #1 score

 

 

 

Ummmm... have you phrased this badly?

 

 

 

 

A lot more points in HW rankings (easy 20pts), even for uncompetitive rankings

 

 

Can the server handle the number of points that Knop will now have? :D

 

I guess users just need to re-evaulate what "nothing" is.

 

Makes me think of The Depression and needing a wheelbarrow of cash to buy bread: https://keripeardon.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/wheelbarrows-of-money-and-the-weimar-republic/

 

 

 

I know, my account is without points, all I see at the moment are rankings. I guess "it doesn't matter" how many points XYZ is "worth" because the value is in the total amount Vs "someone else's" total amount. I'm cynical of "LOOK! BIG NUMBERS!" All that matters is the context

Edited December 28, 2015 by K404

[steponz]

I still think your missing the whole point of 3D.

 

It should be like how it is with 2D cpu. You should be able to bench skylake for vantage, 3d11... just like doing 5960x for legacies..

and get points. The current platform kills 3d.... People wouldn't have to buy each platform... and get top points...

Also the reason why you don't see the latest smaller generation used so much.... doesn't get much points... I personally don't bench for points...... but alot of people do and thats what drives them to bench. Until you fix that piece, nothing you do will change 3d and will eventually make it obsolete.

 

I bench for fun... not for rank.... thats what ruins oc.

[Guest george.kokovinis]

I still think your missing the whole point of 3D.

 

It should be like how it is with 2D cpu. You should be able to bench skylake for vantage, 3d11... just like doing 5960x for legacies..

and get points. The current platform kills 3d.... People wouldn't have to buy each platform... and get top points...

Also the reason why you don't see the latest smaller generation used so much.... doesn't get much points... I personally don't bench for points...... but alot of people do and thats what drives them to bench. Until you fix that piece, nothing you do will change 3d and will eventually make it obsolete.

 

I bench for fun... not for rank.... thats what ruins oc.

 

 

A very strong point from Joe here.

 

Balance is the culprit of everything in life.

I dare to say that things are not well balanced here.

 

Smoothing algorithms are semi-measures that long term will prove insufficient.

 

Maybe the platform should be examined and re-thought from zero ground.

 

Clear up also ( not directly relevant to the subject we discuss ), the nightmare cooling issue for the first three leagues.

 

Like Joe, I also bench for fun in my free time.

But the vast majority of members bench for points and prizes.

 

Only a crystal clear horizon with balanced rewards will open up the way for more OCing and benching.

[xxbassplayerxx]

I still think your missing the whole point of 3D.

 

It should be like how it is with 2D cpu. You should be able to bench skylake for vantage, 3d11... just like doing 5960x for legacies..

and get points. The current platform kills 3d.... People wouldn't have to buy each platform... and get top points...

Also the reason why you don't see the latest smaller generation used so much.... doesn't get much points... I personally don't bench for points...... but alot of people do and thats what drives them to bench. Until you fix that piece, nothing you do will change 3d and will eventually make it obsolete.

 

I bench for fun... not for rank.... thats what ruins oc.

 

I think your argument here should be with Futuremark. They make whole system benchmarks and they make graphics benchmarks. The graphics benchmarks should rely on CPU as little as possible. I'd be surprised if there is a single game out there that actually performs better on a 5960X than it does on a 6700K.

 

The only thing HWBot could do to somewhat alleviate this would be to rank by Graphics score alone. For the newer benchmarks, this is usually more GPU dependent than CPU dependent, although the CPU does play a factor, i.e. Skylake CPU + GPU having a higher GPU score than Haswell CPU + GPU, echoing real world performance (Skylake + GPU usually has higher FPS than Haswell + GPU).

[speed.fastest]

AFAIK 3D Benchmark is not all about GPU, CPU is affected too even in real world gaming (like Crysis 3, Watch Dogs, etc). But the different is not as much as 3DMark do (in this case powerfull CPU like i7 5960X, i7 6700K, i5 6600K). I think @xxbassplayerxx is right, for 3D maybe you should contact the benchmark developer. And as far as i know more resolution = less CPU dependant benchmark, like FSU is less CPU dependant than FS or 3DMark11 P. CMIIW.

[rbuass]

Well... nice to know people in debate to try to improve and balance 3D rankings.

I think that 2D and 3D should be separate rankings...will make better for the people that plays 3D, and not affected 2D fans.

I believe will be very nice to have 2D and 3D rankings.

About 4way and multicards... as you can see, very few people can bench multi cards... so, Hwbot need to balance the points, because even with weak overclocking, some guys can worth a lot of points, since there are no competitors enough to have competitive ranking.

I don't think the problem is XTU worth a lot of points... if is in separate rankings... but in same ranking, I think is non sense XTU worth a lot of points to while Fire Strike Ultra (example), worth zero points... but is only my opinion.

 

For the last, but not the least, I keep my point of view:

Should be Forbidden:

Engeenering Samples

Not public BIOS and hardware

 

*** Earn points only one score for benchmark

 

*** Not mix the OC Eports points with Hardware and Global points. Some competitions are not global, and not all people can join... also competitions, the most of time, need to follow benchmarks and hardware (and usually some brand).

I think Hwbopt should have some special kind of OC Sports ranking, but never mix with the Overclocker ranking... even to not force the overclocker to follow this.

 

I don't know the conclusion of the topic, but I hope and cross my fingers to have a nice improvement to the League.

 

Sorry the broken english

Edited December 29, 2015 by rbuass

[stivut]

*** Not mix the OC Eports points with Hardware and Global points. Some competitions are not global, and not all people can join... also competitions, the most of time, need to follow benchmarks and hardware (and usually some brand).

I think Hwbopt should have some special kind of OC Sports ranking, but never mix with the Overclocker ranking... even to not force the overclocker to follow this.

 

Totally agree!

[Schenckel bros]

I think the most of the guys here, are looking for ranking since it's a league.

 

Unfortunately I don't want to bench 2D, so I have very few chances to be well ranked, since 2D and 3D are all in same league.

 

But regardless Hwbot create separate leagues to 2D and 3D, I cannot understand why OC Sports add points to the ranking, I see non sense to have points for example, in Hyper X competitions, and don't have in GOC. To have poin ts in some Gigabyte competitions, or any brand, while people need to follow benchmarks, hardware and all.

Let the OC Sports reward as OC sports, but never as ranking points

[Kvekan_SWE]

I think the most of the guys here, are looking for ranking since it's a league.

 

Unfortunately I don't want to bench 2D, so I have very few chances to be well ranked, since 2D and 3D are all in same league.

 

But regardless Hwbot create separate leagues to 2D and 3D, I cannot understand why OC Sports add points to the ranking, I see non sense to have points for example, in Hyper X competitions, and don't have in GOC. To have poin ts in some Gigabyte competitions, or any brand, while people need to follow benchmarks, hardware and all.

Let the OC Sports reward as OC sports, but never as ranking points

 

My idea is that OC sport points is included to make people join competitions and understand that they are fun. More people competing gives more value to OC as an esport and that is good for OC.

[Guest cowgut]

yeah how did the oc sports points get mixed in? ah kidding I know how and remember.

a few things I think people need to remember overclocking is not a sport and overclocking is boring af to watch

overclocking is not gaming and very few people do it and if they do does not make them join hwbot.

ok ok I will try to get back ot.

you guys want more 3d?your going to have to grab the gamers,thats right "true game benchmarks" with a wrapper much like heaven.sure it will be apita to get the devs to give you that ok but its going to need to be done....that is if you want more 3d.

take for example the fm3d legacy benches, are they 3d?n ooo you know that. take a vga add volts ln2 and a non -0 cpu you don't get far....and that's the point of 3d vga's.

come on they run skylake on ln2 put what cards you have in it scores very well against scores that are on decade old cpu's

well I don't want to rant its just we need better 3dbenches.just please don't sell out to intel if they put out a 3dbench like you did in 2d for that xtu garbage.

I hope the next cpu's are multi capped like sandy bridge.

if there would be more people around here that could have as much fun with a top 50 hw score as a top 5 it would be a better place

everyone have a great new year

Edited December 29, 2015 by cowgut

[Alex@ro]

First of all overclocking can not and it will never be a major phenomen.Argue with me as much as you like but it simply does not have the prerequisites to become sport e.g e-sport.

 

Overclocking nowdays is about who is willing to invest big money /have great support and be a top-ranker.

 

Overclocking is about investing money with getting basically nothing in return . Yes , you get nice words from a few people and your self-esteem goes higher when you demolish some other scores but it's just about that. Bottom line is that at the end of the day you are left with a great pile of hardware (if it still lives) and that's it.Sure,you can win some competitions and get some money back but you can't make a living out of this.

 

Let's see how things go in other sports . People invest money in training/equipment,years of practice till going pro . But then you have everything covered with a monthly income,you have sponsors to represent and you get additional income from publicity and so on, and when you finally retire you surely earned enough to not care about the financial problems anymore.

 

The hardware industry is a big one for sure but overclocking is just an additional feature in this world . There are millions of people who simply don't care and buy parts to use them at stock frequency.There are people that perform a mild overclock to get a decent performance bonus and finally from these people some just want to push things further and explore the limits.

 

In order to explore these limits you have to:

 

-buy special components e.g unlocked cpu's ,good motherboards,top rated ram kits,strong PSU,etc

-get cooling equiment for these components,water cooling,sub-zero pots probes,insulation,etc

-possibility of buying liquid-nitrogen,dry-ice,etc

-as this was not enough,to get a top-score you need to binn a few cpu's(read dozens),video-cards,ram-kits,etc.

-invest the most expensive resource,lots of TIME

 

The results is getting good scores and absolutely nothing in return.Surely you can just view this as a hobby but let's be frank,for normal people it's damn expensive.

 

ALSO,compared to other hobbies things are very volatile in our world.Say you managed to score a WR and this is like getting a unique stamp or a very rare coin or getting the biggest fish ever caught. Its very likely that your WR will be shattered by internal overclockers or other people having more money/more connections than you. If this doesn't happen,IT WILL with a newer generation of hardware parts.

 

So we are left with money spent for a good ranking at hwbot. Your confidence will be big but your wallet still emty.Basically it doesn't matter because you do not win anything from it,no money back,lot's of wasted time for nothing..

 

And here comes the DRAMA . In any time of year , Hwbot can make changes to the algorythm and rankings will change . WHy? because they can and nobody gives a crack.

 

 

You just can't change ranking because you own this place and platform and you are in charge.

 

Hwbot at the moment is a database composed of results from overclockers. If these overclockers suddently decide to remove all their results hwbot simply does not exist.So how can you encourage more and more results from people when their place in rankings change from one day to another by external decisions ?

 

IF you want to change something you need to make a poll for that decision.No matter how small or big this decision is . Threads like this simply should not exist and any changes to rankings,number of benchmarks that have points,the value of the points,etc needs to be voted and accepted by the community.

 

You say you started this topic because rbu ass and other people are not happy . Why didn't you started a poll with a few questions that you had in mind?Give it 1 month time and see the results.Then discuss and come to this thread ?

 

This is really funny and compared to real world,it's like the president comes tomorrow and say starting today all cars painted white can;t be used anymore.Except that the leader can't take this decision alone and needs to be processed first in the parliament and house of representatives.Which were ellected by the people.Oh wait , do we have something like this here?

 

This thread is the failure of the year from my point of view and represents the failure of hwbot in establishing itself as a strong community for a small but passionate group of people.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Alex@ro

[Guest cowgut]

Alex@ro I agree with you 100% but you need to remember not all that submit scores here care to be 1# benchmarker.

in fact most that do submit scores know they will never be the king but they still do.

the first thing they should have done many years ago is to remove points for the pro overclockers in hardware and global,let them have there own spotlight.

why should little bobby have to compete with someone who is manufacturer backed?

only thing you could really do is have hw and global for each league.

really the top scores are fed from passing overclockers

yeah I know then scores on -0 would be worth a lot less oh well too bad

oh and way off topic but....when are you going to make people in the Enthusiast with water chillers put up some temp proof of there runs? even +20c above how hard could it be for them? don't be an enabler to that bs on the other side 1 -5 scores on dice or a cold winters day should not put you in with the wolfs either

[der8auer]

the first thing they should have done many years ago is to remove points for the pro overclockers in hardware and global,let them have there own spotlight.

 

Even pro overclockers need their motivation

[speed.fastest]

I agree with @cowgut, maybe Elite League point is good when point is separated from other league like Extreme, Enthusiast. So Elite in their own league and cant interrupting non pro league point and rank. They can compare but elite result will fair if cant interrupt non pro league & rank. F1 vs F1, not F1 vs Street Car

 

Just my view from non pro league.

[Guest cowgut]

Even pro overclockers need their motivation

 

you can compete and get points with people on your own level can you not?

"pro" what so hard to comprehend?

I am sure they can move the "points slider" for you guys

100%99.9%99.8% and so on since there is only a few hundred of you here.

just saying

if it was only pros here you scores would be worth crap

no offence meant just reality

Edited December 29, 2015 by cowgut

[Massman]

Thanks for your input Alex. Much appreciated!

 

As you can see, this thread is an open dialogue to see what we can do with the algorithm before we put anything up for public vote.

 

Changes will be necessary in the future as our database is growing faster than ever before. But it's best if these changes reflect what the broader community desires.

 

Have a great 2016!

[Alex@ro]

Same to you Pieter !

[Guest george.kokovinis]

First of all overclocking can not and it will never be a major phenomen.Argue with me as much as you like but it simply does not have the prerequisites to become sport e.g e-sport.

 

Overclocking nowdays is about who is willing to invest big money /have great support and be a top-ranker.

 

Overclocking is about investing money with getting basically nothing in return . Yes , you get nice words from a few people and your self-esteem goes higher when you demolish some other scores but it's just about that. Bottom line is that at the end of the day you are left with a great pile of hardware (if it still lives) and that's it.Sure,you can win some competitions and get some money back but you can't make a living out of this.

 

Let's see how things go in other sports . People invest money in training/equipment,years of practice till going pro . But then you have everything covered with a monthly income,you have sponsors to represent and you get additional income from publicity and so on, and when you finally retire you surely earned enough to not care about the financial problems anymore.

 

The hardware industry is a big one for sure but overclocking is just an additional feature in this world . There are millions of people who simply don't care and buy parts to use them at stock frequency.There are people that perform a mild overclock to get a decent performance bonus and finally from these people some just want to push things further and explore the limits.

 

In order to explore these limits you have to:

 

-buy special components e.g unlocked cpu's ,good motherboards,top rated ram kits,strong PSU,etc

-get cooling equiment for these components,water cooling,sub-zero pots probes,insulation,etc

-possibility of buying liquid-nitrogen,dry-ice,etc

-as this was not enough,to get a top-score you need to binn a few cpu's(read dozens),video-cards,ram-kits,etc.

-invest the most expensive resource,lots of TIME

 

The results is getting good scores and absolutely nothing in return.Surely you can just view this as a hobby but let's be frank,for normal people it's damn expensive.

 

ALSO,compared to other hobbies things are very volatile in our world.Say you managed to score a WR and this is like getting a unique stamp or a very rare coin or getting the biggest fish ever caught. Its very likely that your WR will be shattered by internal overclockers or other people having more money/more connections than you. If this doesn't happen,IT WILL with a newer generation of hardware parts.

 

So we are left with money spent for a good ranking at hwbot. Your confidence will be big but your wallet still emty.Basically it doesn't matter because you do not win anything from it,no money back,lot's of wasted time for nothing..

 

And here comes the DRAMA . In any time of year , Hwbot can make changes to the algorythm and rankings will change . WHy? because they can and nobody gives a crack.

 

 

You just can't change ranking because you own this place and platform and you are in charge.

 

Hwbot at the moment is a database composed of results from overclockers. If these overclockers suddently decide to remove all their results hwbot simply does not exist.So how can you encourage more and more results from people when their place in rankings change from one day to another by external decisions ?

 

IF you want to change something you need to make a poll for that decision.No matter how small or big this decision is . Threads like this simply should not exist and any changes to rankings,number of benchmarks that have points,the value of the points,etc needs to be voted and accepted by the community.

 

You say you started this topic because rbu ass and other people are not happy . Why didn't you started a poll with a few questions that you had in mind?Give it 1 month time and see the results.Then discuss and come to this thread ?

 

This is really funny and compared to real world,it's like the president comes tomorrow and say starting today all cars painted white can;t be used anymore.Except that the leader can't take this decision alone and needs to be processed first in the parliament and house of representatives.Which were ellected by the people.Oh wait , do we have something like this here?

 

This thread is the failure of the year from my point of view and represents the failure of hwbot in establishing itself as a strong community for a small but passionate group of people.

 

 

Alex,

 

You have A BIG BEAUTIFUL MOUTH and A VERY SHARP MIND.

I have thought all of these over and over.

 

50 stars for you and your mind.

 

People, Alex's post IS THE MOST VALUABLE POST OF 2015.

 

It is only a very expensive hobby.

It will never be e-sport.

 

And most of us are a bunch of idiots spending tens of thousands of dollars,

for nothing.

Just to raise our egoism and self-appreciation for a couple of minutes.

 

WOW, I am a great overclocker.

[Leeghoofd]

So George buy a 20.000 dollar fishing rod, catch a fish , take a selfie and throw it back...

 

To be honest there's a lot of " I don't like this, I don't like that, it will never turn into that,... Plz provide some thoughts on how to improve things... The Bot has gone through so many versions and it always boils down to the same: I don't like the new algorythm, I don't get enough points,... Ow really ? I haven't notived much in all these years that I've been active here, I didn't experience a massive drop in my ranking. All is done for the better, but the knife will always cut on both sides...

 

Where I think the root of all evil is: Many of you think you get into OC and get lots of freebies because you are ranked high or break some WRs. That has happened to a mere handfull of people. But not alone because they were active HWBot but also do their own development, write reviews, provide feedback and spend weeks debugging the darn board or card. Let me tell you: "The golden ages are over and done with"

 

Yeah it is a hobby that can cost a freaking lot of money. But it is still you that decides in the end if you want to buy high end GPUs and cherry binned CPUs. You as an individual determine how far you want to push the envelope... so you blame the Bots algorythm because you wasted 10K on hardware and now you dropped in the ranking?

Like stated by Alex, depending on the benchmarks, no points last forever. Records will get broken again, time after time, that is evolution my friends. Either you jump on the bandwagon and keep on riding it or jump off at a certain moment... Where you want to go is again fully up to you...

 

I also wonder also what you guys think of OC becoming E-sport... is it again the green cash that thrives that thought ? We have more and more events worldwide. True we will never fill a football arena with 20000 mad gamers watching a boring card game alike Hardstone... I don't care as long as we can get together on any location, bench and have fun... you really think all E-sports players can make a living out of it... for sure, the happy few again...

 

Criticizm is easy to do, constructive inputs is something else. Some of you look at the Bot as a bussiness machine where all the people involved earn lots of money because of your hard earned scores... Remember myself and loads of others do it all for your pleasure, read for free. The moderating, debating done in our free time coz we want to share our passion and improve it. Fly to Taiwan at our own expense just to hang out with one another and too have fun. That is a hobby my friends, as long as I can afford it I will do it. But the constant nagging is a true pain in the ass, as we get confronted with the same this and thats, time after time. Change something and it will result in others being unhappy... seems like a never ending story...

 

Just my two cents... the guy staring back at you when looking in the mirror is the one that decides which way it al goes... you need to focus on the fun part instead of what do I get out of it...

Edited December 29, 2015 by Leeghoofd

[Guest george.kokovinis]

So George buy a 20.000 dollar fishing rod, catch a fish , take a selfie and throw it back...

 

I do not like fish..

I do not like selfies...

I do not like discussions getting personal...:celebration:

 

George out.

[xxbassplayerxx]

...

Alex, I agree with much of what you said. The only thing I disagree with is how Pieter and the staff have gone about gathering feedback for an upcoming change. As he has said, they don't have the technical backbone to continue with the current rankings (as we've all seen). Whether they just need a server upgrade or not is unknown to me. Assuming a new server wouldn't do what is required, we're stuck changing the ranking engine out of necessity.

 

With that said, I've very happy that the staff have asked for thoughts an opinions before putting things to a vote. That way we can have the best possible solutions up for vote rather than early drafts.

[steponz]

AFAIK 3D Benchmark is not all about GPU, CPU is affected too even in real world gaming (like Crysis 3, Watch Dogs, etc). But the different is not as much as 3DMark do (in this case powerfull CPU like i7 5960X, i7 6700K, i5 6600K). I think @xxbassplayerxx is right, for 3D maybe you should contact the benchmark developer. And as far as i know more resolution = less CPU dependant benchmark, like FSU is less CPU dependant than FS or 3DMark11 P. CMIIW.

 

How is cpu not relevant in FS/FSE/FSU? You need higher cores currently to even remotely be in the top.

 

Whats nice about this benchmark is that you don't need high cpu for GPU score, unlike other benchmarks.

 

Why would futuremark have anything to do with this? There benchmark is great..

Different benchmarks will do different things... Do you want to make them the same?

 

We have different benchmarks for different reasons.. vantage/3d11/Catzillas/FS's they are all quite different... Why would we change FS for anything... don't see the point at all.

 

My point here is....... Allowing lower core amounts to achieve points. 6700k is 4 core 8 threads.. If someone has high gpu score with this low cpu they can't compete.

If the benchmark was also done by cores, it would change how many people and who would be able to bench it... because the cost is lower.... because the least amount of cores. The main reason why 3d isn't benched so much is because the lack of good points that people can get. Why submit or even learn 3d when 2d is much easier to do.. meaning the most cost effective.. Why learn something that costs a bit more and can be more difficult... more pots.... different loads...

 

It would be nice to see 3D by cores of CPU and GPU Cores... the hardware points for these could really go much higher.

[rbuass]

 

You say you started this topic because rbu ass and other people are not happy . Why didn't you started a poll with a few questions that you had in mind?Give it 1 month time and see the results.Then discuss and come to this thread ?

 

This is really funny and compared to real world,it's like the president comes tomorrow and say starting today all cars painted white can;t be used anymore.Except that the leader can't take this decision alone and needs to be processed first in the parliament and house of representatives.Which were ellected by the people.Oh wait , do we have something like this here?

 

This thread is the failure of the year from my point of view and represents the failure of hwbot in establishing itself as a strong community for a small but passionate group of people.

 

Maybe is all the same for you.... so ... you disagree and think is a failure.

But what is the problem?.... the issue regarding the topic, or the way the Topic was published?

If you think is everything all right... XTU should earn 500 points... and 3D is rewarded enough, you just gave your point of view.

You are the first to disrespect someone in the topic, ... and with no reason to do it.

Take it easy and no offenses, please.

Just give your opinion with respect, like others.

[steponz]

Pretty much sums it up....

 

Very well said....

 

 

So George buy a 20.000 dollar fishing rod, catch a fish , take a selfie and throw it back...

 

To be honest there's a lot of " I don't like this, I don't like that, it will never turn into that,... Plz provide some thoughts on how to improve things... The Bot has gone through so many versions and it always boils down to the same: I don't like the new algorythm, I don't get enough points,... Ow really ? I haven't notived much in all these years that I've been active here, I didn't experience a massive drop in my ranking. All is done for the better, but the knife will always cut on both sides...

 

Where I think the root of all evil is: Many of you think you get into OC and get lots of freebies because you are ranked high or break some WRs. That has happened to a mere handfull of people. But not alone because they were active HWBot but also do their own development, write reviews, provide feedback and spend weeks debugging the darn board or card. Let me tell you: "The golden ages are over and done with"

 

Yeah it is a hobby that can cost a freaking lot of money. But it is still you that decides in the end if you want to buy high end GPUs and cherry binned CPUs. You as an individual determine how far you want to push the envelope... so you blame the Bots algorythm because you wasted 10K on hardware and now you dropped in the ranking?

Like stated by Alex, depending on the benchmarks, no points last forever. Records will get broken again, time after time, that is evolution my friends. Either you jump on the bandwagon and keep on riding it or jump off at a certain moment... Where you want to go is again fully up to you...

 

I also wonder also what you guys think of OC becoming E-sport... is it again the green cash that thrives that thought ? We have more and more events worldwide. True we will never fill a football arena with 20000 mad gamers watching a boring card game alike Hardstone... I don't care as long as we can get together on any location, bench and have fun... you really think all E-sports players can make a living out of it... for sure, the happy few again...

 

Criticizm is easy to do, constructive inputs is something else. Some of you look at the Bot as a bussiness machine where all the people involved earn lots of money because of your hard earned scores... Remember myself and loads of others do it all for your pleasure, read for free. The moderating, debating done in our free time coz we want to share our passion and improve it. Fly to Taiwan at our own expense just to hang out with one another and too have fun. That is a hobby my friends, as long as I can afford it I will do it. But the constant nagging is a true pain in the ass, as we get confronted with the same this and thats, time after time. Change something and it will result in others being unhappy... seems like a never ending story...

 

Just my two cents... the guy staring back at you when looking in the mirror is the one that decides which way it al goes... you need to focus on the fun part instead of what do I get out of it...

[xxbassplayerxx]

Maybe is all the same for you.... so ... you disagree and think is a failure.

But what is the problem?.... the issue regarding the topic, or the way the Topic was published?

If you think is everything all right... XTU should earn 500 points... and 3D is rewarded enough, you just gave your point of view.

You are the first to disrespect someone in the topic, ... and with no reason to do it.

Take it easy and no offenses, please.

Just give your opinion with respect, like others.

 

I don't think he meant any offense to you. Massman stated that he started this thread because you and a few others had started threads about 3D points so he wanted to explore the point spread. Alex was just stating that as a fact, not as an attempt to call anyone out, if I understand correctly.