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Christian Ney

Cooling: What can we do, what do you want?

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Members are complaining but no one (as far as I know) actually brought an idea/suggestion/solution to address the current issue about cooling.

 

What are you talking about?

I am referring to the issue there is currently with leagues being split based on the cooling and cooling limited competition.

 

What is the cooling issue?

Some members may or may not use extreme cooling and post results under "not extreme cooling".

Some members may or may not call out other members they suspect are doing it.

 

What is the effect of the cooling issue?

I have headaches

Kills the fun

Some members are called the C word

Some members refuse to compete

Some members may or may not take advantage of the situation to win competitions (inc. prizes, fame)

 

We spent time and time trying to find a solution, so far everything we found can "help" a bit but doesn't fix the problem for good and complicate things.

Edited by Christian Ney

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Amen, it is time that not only the staff gets headaches but that we get constructive proposals to solve or at least improve the issue

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Well, if you add some sort of mandatory temperature proof, I guess if you "cheat" after that, it's officially cheating, and that should make most people that opportunistically finding loop holes in the rules today stop doing that. Most people are honest, and even honest people are bending the rules, but honest people usually do not brake the rules. The people that are cheating on the purpose of cheating you will never get rid of, but those are few and never missed in competions.

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Guest george.kokovinis

As long as moderators are judging from a distance, no software, no pictures and no videos can and will 100% verify the validity of a submission.

 

There is though a simple word that may solve many things.

BAN !

No headaches either way and no accusations.

 

Cooling is simple :

1) Air

2) Water

 

These two AMBIENT methods of cooling constitute Rookie, Novice and Enthusiast Leagues.

 

3) Single stage and chillers

 

Extreme league - stage 1 ( or whatever )

 

4) Cascade, Dice, LN2, Liquid Helium.

 

Extreme league - stage 2 ( or whatever ).

 

 

Temperature perspective :

Either you live in North Pole or Abu Dhabi.

 

1) Ambient : Minimum idle 5 degrees

2) Extreme 1 : Minimum idle -50

3) Extreme 2 : Obviously no limit.

 

 

Break the rules ?

GO HOME

 

Keep it simple.

Fewer leagues with distinct differences.

 

Pros ?

Elite ?

Company employees on a payroll promoting the vendors ?

 

Without joking, a totally independent league and point system.

 

F1 drivers have their championship.

They are not the enthusiast sports driver who will take his helmet and go the track for the weekend for some fun.

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People just need to stop complaining about ice water and do it themselves because in most cases I'm aware of are just that

 

oh if someone is smart enough to add antifreeze such as alcohol to ice they shouldn't be punished

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People just need to stop complaining about ice water and do it themselves because in most cases I'm aware of are just that

 

oh if someone is smart enough to add antifreeze such as alcohol to ice they shouldn't be punished

 

Yea, and then only alkohol and then instead of ice, why dont just cool the liquid with compressors....you see what this is heading. No, we can't have ice water in ambient, not even winter cold through a tower cooler should be allowed in my opinion. Ambient is normal room temperature, i.e. around 20 degrees C.

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but if you do that you limit people experimenting and trying to get a better score which after all is what this is all about. Trying new things to get a better score if we stop people from doing this why bench at all?

 

you might as well have all in one group and allow bonus points for people that show they are benching with a harder method.. if they dont its standard score no bonus

aka room temp where room temp is in a fair range of temps

sub ambient where there is a slight change

and sub zero when things are really getting closer to dice temps.

 

i have ideas but sadly no solutions but we have plenty of smart people here..

 

its a lot harder for people to bench sub ambient where you have to watch out for condensation and probably insulate your board.. maybe thats it .. if you have to use conformal due to temps or insulate the board possibly that could be a cutting off point because if someone is willing to loose a board to bench they deserve to get the extra points.

 

please remember before flaming that im just throwing out ideas.

 

I do think that George has a good idea but we need to be sure that there is intended fraud before we ban someone ... not just a witch hunt.

 

Btw * Who is making the popcorn ?* ( insert popcorn gif here )

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Guest george.kokovinis

Folks,

 

I am pretty sure that a consensus will NOT be reached here.

Multiple points of view, most subjective and not objective.

 

The Administration team could not be better.

This is no compliment.

 

The problem is not where this thing will finally take us.

The vast majority of members are legit.

 

As in life, a small minority that thinks it is smarter than all, takes

advantage of the TOLERANCE of the moderators, especially when

things move on the edge of legal/non-legal.

 

I have personally lost three competitions FROM THE SAME PERSON and the prizes that were awarded.

 

So, let's not beat around the bush and let's start from the obvious.

Clean the garbage out of our yard.

 

After that, things are pretty straight forward.

 

1) Ambient

2) Sub-ambient to cold ( the existing apprentice league )

3) Cold.

 

This is what mathematics impose.

Not what everyone "thinks" that is right.

 

Leaving aside the Elite members, some of which are vendors employees ( payroll or not ) with endless resources of hardware, info and support,

the rest of us have a tough competition to face in their respective league.

 

It is not easy.

It is not harder to be first in extreme than in enthusiast league.

 

So, we must keep things as simple and clear as possible.

Admins and mods, your hands must be more steady and decisive.

 

Democracy is a good thing, too much democracy is anarchy.

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As I've said multiple times before, until you find a 100% verifiable way to prove temp being used, there is absolutely nothing you can do to break up leagues by temp. There will always be fraudulent entries, loophole seekers, and cheat masters. There is nothing you can do about it.

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I agree with George above. I think it needs to be kept simple, but there is no real way to be sure someone is telling the truth.

 

Yesterday I sent this to a very level headed guy here.

 

I mentioned to Matt on our discussion of the Apprentice League that I think it's fine to have the league, but also change the Competition setup in the ambient leagues to have fixed clocks.

 

In my opinion, it makes it more competitive and less about hardware luck or deep pockets. It's more about the tweaks to educate these guys to get better and progress to cold or the higher leagues when they are ready. This also fixes the issue of ambient as you choose a speed most CPU's can run without being sub 30 degrees at idle.

 

People can still run their binned chips for not points or rankings, just need to limit it in competition.

 

At the moment, it's a case of he who has the best gear wins. No competition there, because a lot of guys just run what they have, without the ability to bin.

 

I am one of these that decides whether I want to have a go at a comp, knowing full well I will have no chance of winning because of the competitors. The past few competitions have reinforced my feelings on it. Basically I just decide based on what the runner up prize is or lucky draw prize is and whether it's worth my effort to compete. ROG, Gigagbyte Winter, current gigabyte, there is a pattern, and this is what is killing it for people participating. Without it being fair for the 'ambient' category, people will continue to avoid participating.

 

I don't care to much for league points so it's not so much of an issue, the rankings are just there really for comparison for me whether my efficiency is right or not. It is only when there is a competition with money or prizes involved there is an issue, and this is what needs the attention, not so much the cooling methods.

 

Enough ramble.

 

In Short

Leagues as George listed

(1) ambient (I'd say aquarium chiller is ok if the idle is proven above that)

(2) temps to -50 so single stage/chillers

(3) anything below that.

 

And

 

Fixed clock challenges for competitions involving enthusiast, novice or rookie. Fix the competition setup, and the cooling problems become more of a non-issue in the future.

 

I feel this is best for competition, encouragement and education.

Edited by KaRtA

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not helpful so much to the cooling enforcement challenge, but;

more fixed clock challenges.

almost all OCAU run rookie minded comps have had this in place, promotes a level playing field (or at the least appearance of one, to those new to the game.. they soon learn its not always so level lol), it heavily encourages system efficiency and memory tweaking. you will learn more from doing this and the skills you pick up can be applied throughout your benching career progression.

 

 

i see the difficulty in some sort of better enforced cooling limits for comps where a clock speed limit is not possible or irrelevant though (like 3d? or comps which cover multiple chipset/CPU types/core counts etc).

 

its almost in the too hard basket, theres ways around most methods suggested and definitely been ways around the ones being used on this site so far..

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but if you do that you limit people experimenting and trying to get a better score which after all is what this is all about. Trying new things to get a better score if we stop people from doing this why bench at all?

 

you might as well have all in one group and allow bonus points for people that show they are benching with a harder method.. if they dont its standard score no bonus

aka room temp where room temp is in a fair range of temps

sub ambient where there is a slight change

and sub zero when things are really getting closer to dice temps.

 

i have ideas but sadly no solutions but we have plenty of smart people here..

 

its a lot harder for people to bench sub ambient where you have to watch out for condensation and probably insulate your board.. maybe thats it .. if you have to use conformal due to temps or insulate the board possibly that could be a cutting off point because if someone is willing to loose a board to bench they deserve to get the extra points.

 

please remember before flaming that im just throwing out ideas.

 

I do think that George has a good idea but we need to be sure that there is intended fraud before we ban someone ... not just a witch hunt.

 

Btw * Who is making the popcorn ?* ( insert popcorn gif here )

 

Cooling is just one small part of benchning, there isn't lacking other things to fiddle around with. For sub-ambient cooling there are other leagues.

 

What I suggest is that we set a rule, the water or air that cools the cpu musn't be below 20 degrees C (or 68 F). If that is a strikt rule, I think most poeple will do the right thing. The problem today is that there is no rules, only "ambient" or "no extreme cooling", that is just all about interperation.

 

 

 

As I've said multiple times before, until you find a 100% verifiable way to prove temp being used, there is absolutely nothing you can do to break up leagues by temp. There will always be fraudulent entries, loophole seekers, and cheat masters. There is nothing you can do about it.

 

Well, there are alot of verification that are not 100% but people stick to it anyway. Of course there will always be cheaters, but most people here are honest and will keep to the rules, if we just can decide the rules once and for all. As I mentioned above, the problem is lack of clear rules.

Edited by Marquzz

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I don't mind people on sub zero stuff thumping my scores, that's just a part of it but imo the comps need to be a little more fair for all involved.

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Not good enough.

Most AMD temp sensors are not accurate below 40c. My 8320 read 8c at stock on any software so I am a cheater as soon as I turn the rig on.

No software will help you if you have a bad sensor, thus you will never be able to break leagues up by temp.

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TBH, we might just have to suck it up and accept some people "cheat" with chillers in the ambient leagues. If you are really bothered consider moving upto extreme maybe?

 

And frequency caps are the easiest way to do comps to try and keep a level playing field with regards to cooling.

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I am of the mindset that water is water. If Joe Blow can get his water to -20, good for him.

When in Rome, do as the Roman's do. It does not take much effort to make your water cold. If you want to be competitive in the air/water class I suggest you figure it out, because there is no way the subs will be regulated.

This is what, the 3rd or 4th thread on this same subject? Waste of time and manpower. Let's move on shall we.

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Guest george.kokovinis
TBH, we might just have to suck it up and accept some people "cheat" with chillers in the ambient leagues. If you are really bothered consider moving upto extreme maybe?

 

And frequency caps are the easiest way to do comps to try and keep a level playing field with regards to cooling.

 

Really ?

Well...

How about sucking up some SS too in the ambient leagues.

A strong chiller is not far from a poor SS.

 

I also suggest we all chip in some $$$ for the tranquilizers that the moderators will need ( in big quantities ).

 

There are ( theoretically ) 55000 enthusiast members registered.

Make them move to extreme, just to suck up 10 or 20 cheaters.

 

This is a very negative way of thinking.

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I am of the mindset that water is water. If Joe Blow can get his water to -20, good for him.

When in Rome, do as the Roman's do. It does not take much effort to make your water cold. If you want to be competitive in the air/water class I suggest you figure it out, because there is no way the subs will be regulated.

This is what, the 3rd or 4th thread on this same subject? Waste of time and manpower. Let's move on shall we.

What's the point of keeping leagues at all then?

 

Btw, water freezes at 0 degrees Celsius so keeping water at -20 is impossible without changing either pressure or adding some other ingredient.

 

Just state in the rules that it is absolutely forbidden to use cooling medium below 20 degrees. Done. If people choose to cheat after that there's no doubt it's cheating and they will also know that. That's completely different thing from today where there's no rules what so ever.

 

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

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I think the best way is make member that register at hwbot over "x" year will automatically going to Extreme League or at least Apprentice, so no Frozen/Chilled H2O vs Ambient again. I think not many new user that take advantages of this but the winner of Enthusiast Competition "sure" use this.

Edited by speed.fastest

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What's the point of keeping leagues at all then?

 

Btw, water freezes at 0 degrees Celsius so keeping water at -20 is impossible without changing either pressure or adding some other ingredient.

 

Just state in the rules that it is absolutely forbidden to use cooling medium below 20 degrees. Done. If people choose to cheat after that there's no doubt it's cheating and they will also know that. That's completely different thing from today where there's no rules what so ever.

 

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

 

So it would be forbidden for an Australian to use water 6 months of the year? And that's without going into much colder counties

 

I love how you use the word cheater when nobody has in fact cheated just because they think outside the box and push as close to limit of the rules as they can like everyone does in real sports especially F1's

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So it would be forbidden for an Australian to use water 6 months of the year? And that's without going into much colder counties

 

I love how you use the word cheater when nobody has in fact cheated just because they think outside the box and push as close to limit of the rules as they can like everyone does in real sports especially F1's

 

What are you talking about? Why would it be forbidden?

 

I'm using the word cheater because if we had some rules you would cheat if you broke them.

 

My point is that there are no rules today so people with chillers are competing against people using tower coolers. That is the issue that must be fixed, otherwise we could just skip leagues alltogether.

 

I live in a smaller apartment with my family, I have my bench-place in a wardrobe. I don't have time, money nor room to have a big chiller in there. Should I just quit benching since I will not have any change if chillers are allowed in Enthusiast league? It's not about creativity, I've been in the game for over 15 years and used Peltiers, compressors, DICE, LN2 so I know about this. I'm just glad there are a enthusiast league where I can do some casual benching, because I'm in a point in life where putting many hours and money in cooling just isn't an option. I think I'm not alone since this is the most popular league.

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How many topic exists on this "issue" ?

 

 

Drop leagues, drop competitions and cashprizes, and overclock just for the sake of science plz.

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I bench in my garage which is generally a little warmer than outside although I do have a large enough fan to remedy that problem that I use in the warmer months. I use water no additives other than dish soap along with outside ambient, December average 12.2c (H) 2.8c (L)-July average 36.1c (H) 18.9c (L). I also ice my reservoir on occasion winter, spring, summer & fall takes about a max of 8c off my ambient depending on starting temp and generally only affects my CPU depending on what board I’m using. At About 10c have had both AMD & Intel sensors report negative idle temps in CPUz, VGA sensors are a little more accurate from my own experience. At present moving into the house and was going to try using an 8000 BTU (2345 Watt) portable AC unit to cool the room with direct air flow through my rads then across the board, if this kicks me up a league then so be it but from examples from posts I’ve read shouldn’t be that much different than my winter garage just more consistent through the seasons. I’ve made these above comments as I read a post in this thread or another that in a sense stated a bunch of old guys cheating well I’m an old guy do I cheat guess it up to you.

 

From what I stated you can tell I have nothing against someone setting up on a table in the backyard and braving a -20c for the hardware/ global points and calling it ambient cooling in fact more power to you. From my own experience the better the quality of the sample being benched is generally more important in the ambient arena than 10c and binning is not going away. As for ambient competitions yes there has to be a leveler playing field once monies or prizes start to get thrown around and the fixed clock comps look more appealing.

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Guest george.kokovinis

Maybe a web camera, watching what we are doing during benching ?:D

 

Or a special order cpu socket thermal sensor transmitting over the web

the true temperatures of the processor ?

 

:banana::banana::banana:

 

God permit, we will be discussing the exact same things next year folks.

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What's the point of keeping leagues at all then?

 

Btw, water freezes at 0 degrees Celsius so keeping water at -20 is impossible without changing either pressure or adding some other ingredient.

 

Just state in the rules that it is absolutely forbidden to use cooling medium below 20 degrees. Done. If people choose to cheat after that there's no doubt it's cheating and they will also know that. That's completely different thing from today where there's no rules what so ever.

 

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

 

So, I'll ask again. Cheating....or not? According to your post, it is. Do you expect this guy to warm his water up? You're out of your mind.

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