HWBOT Rev7.1 point recalculation in progress

[GeorgeStorm]

Yeesh people need to chill.

Also as a side note, if benches no longer have normal points for a reason (buggy/cheated etc), makes sense for them to not have team points either, but if the points have been removed simply to 'balance' the main rankings (not too 2d/3d heavy etc) then I don't see a problem.

 

I still blame Massman for pointing the ship in a certain direction then leaving it

Edited June 6, 2018 by GeorgeStorm

[Strunkenbold]

9 minutes ago, ozzie said:

^^^^ jesus ,this is what everyone has been complaining about for years, so what? the penny now has finally dropped ? i know theres a lot of thick people in this world but bot really takes the world record at it, BOT should call itself this as a side show entertainment  , Broken Only Temporarily ?

The whole story is that people where in charge who thought they could establish overclocking as another esport mass phenomenon. This sadly failed. Technically and financially.

Energy wasn't spend on the website. And so one problem after another appeared over the time and didn't got fixed.

Everyone working close to the website was seeing this. But unfortunately those are in no position to decide anything. So the penny dropped long ago...

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, GeorgeStorm said:

Yeesh people need to chill.

Also as a side note, if benches no longer have normal points for a reason (buggy/cheated etc), makes sense for them to not have team points either, but if the points have been removed simply to 'balance' the main rankings (not too 2d/3d heavy etc) then I don't see a problem.

 

I still blame Massman for pointing the ship in a certain direction then leaving it

... and it's a fine line. Sega earned a years leave for thought cheat. Who can say why 1x WR is wreaked one time doing that?

Trying his best to be a TOP x5 in the world ... to perhaps have x1 blemish & he's effectively banished.  Perhaps the most recent of note

_________

But it's ongoing & relentless wreaking benchmarks that we enjoy because of the few dodgy subs. It's not the way, punishing all of us.

[ozzie]

1 minute ago, Strunkenbold said:

The whole story is that people where in charge who thought they could establish overclocking as another esport mass phenomenon. This sadly failed. Technically and financially.

Energy wasn't spend on the website. And so one problem after another appeared over the time and didn't got fixed.

Everyone working close to the website was seeing this. But unfortunately those are in no position to decide anything. So the penny dropped long ago...

so why cant what i suggested years ago work  but got stuff all reply ?? $10 a yr membership for everyone to help bot keep up and running, pay people, whatever to stay on top of things, but as it stands now because of it everyone is suffering yes??, so the answer is to pay, ill throw my $10 in right now,

look i know ive said things that might appear very critical and negative but the reason is there seems to be no advancement in things being fixed, ive proposed a way to try help that, and i think 10 bucks a year isnt gunna kill anyones pocket that  chooses overclocking for a hobby or a business like some do, that all is paid for and given to them. good luck to them, but thats not the issue im talking about, im focusing on the normal joe that wants bot , enjoys bot, and wants bot to keep being bot fun , fun for bot, the user, their team and for fun for all, and  run like it should be run, how it used to be run and if 10 bucks a year helps and secures that then so be it 

 

[Guest]

Edited. That $10 membership was a good idea then. But the HWbot ship may have been steered a different direction. As above writing

Edited June 6, 2018 by Guest

[TASOS]

1 hour ago, Strunkenbold said:

Agree here. Very good point.

Those things turned out as way too complex to handle. The rankings are now broken for years. It's time that we return to something easy.

You should realize that the moment when you hire a math genius to develop an ultra complex formula is a fail. Those things have always to be easy and understandable.

 

I dont know if my writing is correct this way , but isnt that ? ... "The best things in life , are the simple ones"

 

[Guest]

Yes complex formula. It was a good idea " some of it " but the resulting thereabouts 70% cliff is quite the phenomenon.

Fresh members to OC then learn 0.2 points ... and have to try harder.

[ozzie]

if it doesnt start somewhere.... it will never star or start, then when it ends all will whinge.... why!!!

[TASOS]

1 hour ago, avalanche said:

200 thousand regular overclockers loose points personal & team for doing the right thing

 

 

40 minutes ago, avalanche said:

General writing.

 

My answer is not specifically for you , just my personal thoughts and just happened to grab your quotes.

After 25 years of having overclocking as a hobby , i can say in the most emphatic way , that "when benchmarking was discovered , it instantly killed the pure romance of overclocking"

When mass overclocking started , it was all about having more speed (free speed) to our pc's.

When Benchmarking started , it was all about making software produce higher numbers.

When competitive benchmarking started , it was all about tricking software to produce higher scores ... scores without real life usage.

 

That's my 2 or 5 or 10 cents , expressed very simplified.

 

[mr.paco]

Fascinating...

I can count on one hand the number of TEAMS here that bench for & fight for their TEAM, most other members here at Bot bench solely for them-SELF points/rankings and to hell with their team. Prove me wrong... And that is just fine for them.

So Out of pure curiosity; What is the sudden interest in  TEAM points/rankings. Hmmmmm.

It has been mostly catering to crying individual benchers here anyway again nothing wrong with that, if thats their thing so be it. However why go after TEAMS points/rankings? Some individuals here can not compete on a one to one basis on the higher levels so they focus on and contribute to their TEAM the only way they can. And you want to again... Kill the concept of TEAM as it has been attempted before in the past.

If the TEAM PP have been the same way all these years and no one had a complaint about it before why change it? I do understand if the BenchMark was completely removed from Bott.

 

 

 

[Guest]

Reply TASOS

True true. Many here are all about the retro hardware & pushing it's limits. Griff comes to mind with good shit he does. 

I get that man pushing fsb & doing ratios for ram is alot of fun on 775.

________

What changed? Well motherboard manufacturers of late, steer prospective buys to their bios with the easy 5Ghz OC dial.

[Bones]

18 hours ago, Mr.Scott said:

You wanna see the real team standings, remove TPP from all inactive users after say, 2 years of inactivity.

With respect:

I have to say there are at least a few teams with alot of "Dead Wood" within their members list, and I mean some that's comprised of about 10, 15 or so active, all the rest not doing squat except to earn a badge to display on their home forum for making the claim they're "On the team".

As for teams themselves related to points earned:

There is absolutely NOTHING stopping anyone here from benching any and everything they could get their hands on and no one can say otherwise with any truth to it. You do what you gotta do to succeed short of cheating and dirty tricks, doesn't make any sense to punish those doing just that in the right way. 

It's almost like "If you can't beat 'em, report 'em".... With a new twist from what I'm seeing here.

 

OK, it's also fact that many want the big points/scores.... Hey, that's OK and if that's how you want to go at it with a focus on that, it's all good - It's even nice to get them when you can. However screwing over others that do it in a different way than you is actual discrimination based on benching style - Not everyone is able to afford going after it that way, yet at the same time there is talk about growing the sport.

I suppose there is a brand-new crop of Rookies, never having benched anything complete with full dewars of LN2 just waiting to go..... NOT.

I see a trainwreck coming up with this..... Happens everytime something gets changed as we all know too well already.

Leave well enough alone and just bench. 

 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2018 by Bones

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, mr.paco said:

Fascinating...

I can count on one hand the number of TEAMS here that bench for & fight for their TEAM, most other members here at Bot bench solely for them-SELF points/rankings and to hell with their team. Prove me wrong... And that is just fine for them.

So Out of pure curiosity; What is the sudden interest in  TEAM points/rankings. Hmmmmm.

It has been mostly catering to crying individual benchers here anyway again nothing wrong with that, if thats their thing so be it. However why go after TEAMS points/rankings? Some individuals here can not compete on a one to one basis on the higher levels so they focus on and contribute to their TEAM the only way they can. And you want to again... Kill the concept of TEAM as it has been attempted before in the past.

If the TEAM PP have been the same way all these years and no one had a complaint about it before why change it? I do understand if the BenchMark was completely removed from Bott.

 

 

 

Could not have said it better el cap-i-tan  it's just busting team efforts, many teams

[ozzie]

 , IF, this change comes in it wont matter. we'll still get you and beat you, as small as we are ,?

[Leeghoofd]

The 10 bucks debate has been done a few times over the years. Issue is that some just want to pay to keep the site alive, others think they bought a 50% share and start asking for removal of benchmarks, start to interfere with moderation/competition setups,...  I need to dig up the thread where you can donate freely to Fred's paypal addy to reduce costs...

At the moment the BOT is a ship with major problems and the 3-4 man crew is trying to keep first the boat afloat. Secondly steer it away from the incoming iceberg and last but not least in the mean time still find energy to save some out of the water... Everybody knows what the issues are, biggest problem is how to resolve all  these in a short period as possible. Fixing is one thing, though the algorithm and co have become so complex as Strunkenbold explained, it looks more like fix one thing break two...

Frederik is trying to get most stuff sorted after his daily job is done and keep this in mind we are all volunteers, doing this in our free time and totally for free...

 

Thx to Michael for helping me out once in a while...

[Guest]

This Revision 7 has been a curve ball, we are all adjusting to it. If a fix means breaking x2 other things, then don't make changes 

Believe you'll do right Leeghoofd & crack some cheaters heads. Sick of reading " how to " in here learning others

____

Do the best with what you have & be honest in your efforts. No more benchmarks losing points OK 

 

[richba5tard]

Every time i brought up the discussion with PJ that hwbot rev 4/5/6/7 is too complex to understand or maintain, the main counter argument was that a simple and understandable algorithm encourages hw sharing and encourages quantity over quality submissions. He had a good point.

The subscription fee is not deemed viable for hwbot. The server infrastructure alone costs about 10k a year (and thats after the rev7 optimization, it used to be +15k).

[Vinster]

I get the fees are high to operate, but I'd think ever little bit helps.. just like 0.2 points/sub as a min.... :)

over time/volume it adds up. 233k+ members on the bot, say 5,000 are active, $10ea, $50k/year in funds to help with either HW/Coding/Fees. Then you can get help.

Rookies get 3 months free to get the benching bug, then as they start getting/buying HW the $10 will be moot as this is/can be an expensive hobby.

I know money can't fix everything, and I know you not accepting money from us means you owe us nothing. I (and many) do appreciate all the effort you and the remainder of your team put in, including the iceberg under the water we don't see. But to some extent, some people here do want to hold you accountable on some sort of moral level. That part is immeasurable

I'm the cheapest bastard I know, me suggesting a small fee and agreeing with it is a big statement for me. But this place is worth it, the effort you put in is worth it.

Vin

[Rauf]

6 hours ago, richba5tard said:

Every time i brought up the discussion with PJ that hwbot rev 4/5/6/7 is too complex to understand or maintain, the main counter argument was that a simple and understandable algorithm encourages hw sharing and encourages quantity over quality submissions. He had a good point.

The subscription fee is not deemed viable for hwbot. The server infrastructure alone costs about 10k a year (and thats after the rev7 optimization, it used to be +15k).

I would say that the situation is different now. The complex point system is no longer needed, or at least has lost its way. Does anyone even have an idea of what the purpose of the current system is? Can anyone define it?

I think the answer is "something to please everyone". Which ends up being shit for most. And so we have like 6 different rankings, world ranking, overclocker league, global, hw, team, etc. We already have quantity over quality. First place in 3way 3d05 is worth more than wr in 3d01, pifast etc.

The current system is a mess.

If hwbot still thinks competitive rankings are the way to go and wants to promote quality (top scores). Why not just add fixed bonus points to top 10 or 20 scores in each ranking. Every other score is just pure %. No need to involve complex logarithms.

[Mr.Scott]

8 hours ago, richba5tard said:

Every time i brought up the discussion with PJ that hwbot rev 4/5/6/7 is too complex to understand or maintain, the main counter argument was that a simple and understandable algorithm encourages hw sharing and encourages quantity over quality submissions. He had a good point.

 

That's bullshit.

What I just got from that was that my team doesn't have quality subs. Yet we have members that put a few hundred subs up every month. They get nothing for that effort if you pull the TPP.

Again, you don't punish active benching, you promote it. No matter how good or bad the sub is.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Mr.Scott

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Rauf said:

I would say that the situation is different now. The complex point system is no longer needed, or at least has lost its way. Does anyone even have an idea of what the purpose of the current system is? Can anyone define it?

I think the answer is "something to please just Rauf". Which ends up being shit for most. And so we have like 6 different rankings, world ranking, overclocker league, global, hw, team, etc. We already have quantity over quality. First place in 3way 3d05 is worth more than wr in 3d01, pifast etc.

*snip* garble

Stop messing with it man.   Too many changes. Leeghoofd said above, x1 applied fix & x2 more things break.

Known some of the points system is out of whack to many of us. This should be a time to reflect/ plan ... see what can be done better next year.

_______

Define Revision 7 you say? To submit your best scores & stay close to #1 ranked member in a benchmark

 

 

[zeropluszero]

Still waiting for Tobias to create hwbot2.org ?

[Guest]

Not about the x1 ... HWbot is for all of us.

__________

Elite league (232 participants)
Extreme league (1917 participants)
Apprentice league (1457 participants)
Enthusiast league (180219 participants)
Novice league (38150 participants)>
Rookie league (11533 participants)

3606 use special cooling ie Apprentice & above. 180K enthusiast regular cooling. 233508 total members.

49683 Novice & Rookie. We do welcome the newcomers to overclocking. 

_________

No doubt LN2 World Records grab the headlines with the big scores.  2149 members spending on expensive parts risking it all for glory. 

_________

It's purely about numbers right? Anyone in the world can compete same hardware & submit scores.

Then the dollar factor. Titans & big processors all cost if you want to be @ the TOP.  What about the 229902 ambient members buying parts?

Air & Water Cooling enthusiasts, novice & rookies. They buy parts as well.

_________

Mathematics 1.544% of HWbot use special cooling  the rest ambient cooling.

98.456% Represent the regular overclocker in here. Almost 230 thousand

Needs of the many outweigh the needs of a few. We all buy hardware too, lots of it.

When Revision 7 was implemented. Many members took massive hits on points as they benched more legacy parts.

Yes extreme guy as well iirc that conversation, he had hardware like core2 duo & 939 parts. His effort diminished.

Then hardcore guys that have been submitting to HWbot for 10 years or more, their efforts diminished.

What's left you ask? Revision 7 saw points shit to different areas. So it's a matter to look for them.

HWbot is a complexe beast that we know, there are many areas to focus in. 

Variety you see, there is lots to do. Lots of hardware to bench & sure to be within your budget.

______________

Not lose purpose HWbot ... listen & cater for a few in here. There are great teams that work hard like mine.

We all strive to do better & earn points, win a competition OR hear a well done from our peers.

______________

Keep it real guys. Do your best but be honest in your efforts 

 

 

 

[zeropluszero]

Can anyone translate that for me? 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, zeropluszero said:

Can anyone translate that for me? 

HWbot is for everyone even you Zero. A service made available for us all to test our skill against each other.

It's a privilege made possible for us to submit scores.

NOT a right of some individuals to try twist manipulate HWbot towards their personal gain.

__________

A majority silent is still a majority looking on.