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8 hours ago, unityofsaints said:

- Competitions are already struggling bigtime atm, why devalue them further by only including them in the seasonal ranking?

The reason has been explained earlier in this topic: because career points accumulate forever and new members would never have a chance beating old (and maybe inactive) members who participated in competitions. On top of that, nearly every other sports ranking resets yearly. Keeping all points forever and no way to beat them creates a closed and stale ranking system.

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After discussing the member points algorithm (both seasonal and carreer) with George for a bit I'd like to make a suggestion:

Instead of top X total points which count towards your member points:

  • top X global points
  • top X hardware points (preferably same X to keep things easy to explain, but I can be convinced if need be)
  • no benchmark/worldrecord points for crazy quad sli/crossfire setups, but an award/achievement instead

This would close the gap between $$$ and skill further.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, richba5tard said:

After discussing the member points algorithm (both seasonal and carreer) with George for a bit I'd like to make a suggestion:

Instead of top X total points which count towards your member points:

  • top X global points
  • top X hardware points (preferably same X to keep things easy to explain, but I can be convinced if need be)
  •  no benchmark/worldrecord points for crazy quad sli/crossfire setups, but an award/achievement instead

This would close the gap between $$$ and skill further.

Seems a good idea. Separating globals and hw points means you cannot loose points by submitting a better (global) score because hw points are lower on the new one.

WR points are a bit outdated, I agree. But I think disabling them completely turns hwbot into 2dbot. 2d-benching is 99% about binning and then mostly running your cpu at full pot, press bench and sit back for ~30 seconds.

A better way would be to redesign the 3D structure. Decrease WR points to maybe half of todays points and give it to relevant benchmarks which scale with SLI. There is no point in giving WR points for 3D03 and Vantage for example. And then disable all globals for legacy 3D-benchmarks except single card. Giving high globals for benching 3-way 3dmark05 where single card gives better score makes no sense. Also all 3-way and 4-way rankings should no longer get globals, as it is not even supported on newest generation. This should even out the balace between 2D and 3D. If you want to reward skill in any way you should reward 3D, as it takes much more tweaking, figuring out temps, good mounts, handling more hw and pots at the same time.

Oh, and if hwbot wants to stay relevant you need to add the Time spy extreme and possibly also Port royal to the globals benchmarks. People are benching this and will continue to compete on these benches. It's just a matter of if people do it here or for 3Dmark hall of fame. With the removal of catzillas, new modern 3Ds needs to be added.

Edited by Rauf
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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Fasttrack said:

George, you are one of the most down to Earth members here on the BOT.

So, question :

Don't people need in every form of activity in life options and challenges in order to keep the spirit up ?

To wake up and keep trying to get better ?

If we start - cut this, stop that, restrictions, space getting smaller - then we wake up and say " what the hell, I might as well do something else "

Yes I agree it wants to be inclusive and open to all. I was thinking of it in a way everybody gets to do what they want, with no pressure to do things they don't (so if they like comps but don't care about the 'normal' ranking they can still compete, and if they don't care about comps they don't have to do them, and if they like both then they get to compete in both etc.) Wasn't trying to divide things in a negative way.

 

Rauf the reason I suggested either eliminating or greatly reducing both globals and WR was to improve the spread of points, as I feel it's currently a little extreme, since as you pointed out, when something like 03 doesn't scale with multiple cards, it means a single score can give over 450pts, which compared to a global first in a popular category (4x cpu r15) is over 200pts difference.

It's possible that simply changing the benchmarks which are awarded them and reducing the ceiling of them will solve the issue whilst still rewarding those who want to push crazy setups that might not get many hw/globals. (what they were designed to reward in the first place)

Edit:

Unity one of the 'issues' with comps is that they're time limited, which means once they're over that's it, nobody can beat you, which goes against all the other points on hwbot, hence why looking to keep them to a system that resets, naturally counteracting that aspect.

 

Edited by GeorgeStorm
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nicely said george,

rauf is only lookin out for his own points in the current system from what i read of it

this is all about for ALL, not a selected few that bot has concentrated on for FAR too long as far as im concerned !!!!!

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@ozzie You know nothing. It's about decreasing overall 3D points massively. And giving points where it is relevant, instead of just handing it out to anyone who mounts a 2/3/4-way setup.

Are the competition points really necessary? As I see it there are so few competitions left, and if hwbot decides to do road to pro or whatever it was called again it is not really something many considers worth benching anyway. At least not at top level.

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Posted (edited)

yep, i know nothing 🙂, i know this tho, youre only tryin to  look after your own arse with big hardware

 

and if you dont like what i said, well ....read my avatar ...will explain it all  to you ....🖕

Edited by ozzie

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1 hour ago, Rauf said:

@ozzie You know nothing. It's about decreasing overall 3D points massively. And giving points where it is relevant, instead of just handing it out to anyone who mounts a 2/3/4-way setup.

Are the competition points really necessary? As I see it there are so few competitions left, and if hwbot decides to do road to pro or whatever it was called again it is not really something many considers worth benching anyway. At least not at top level.

I agree that getting rid of Globals for 2/3/4 way setups is a good idea its just a way to get big globals without a lot of effort.

I think that HWBot getting rid of the challenger series (Road to Pro) would be doing itself a disservice even though some of the top level benchers dont compete it gets a good roundup of competitiors in all divisions and a lot of people like it.

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Limit costs? ... for those who have 2080ti free yes.
Eliminating the global 2/3/4 vga means forcing people to take only top of the range videocards

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1 hour ago, ale_belo said:

Limit costs? ... for those who have 2080ti free yes.
 Eliminating the global 2/3/4 vga means forcing people to take only top of the range videocards

I don't understand, you want to bench for globals on GTX 780 sli or what? Take a look at Time spy 2-way ranking. the first non titan or 2080ti/1080ti setup is a dual 1080 setup. It's still pretty high end and it gets 2 global points...

If you mean legacy benchmarks I can understand it, but they are not really 3D anymore... Maybe one solution would be to have one ranking for all legacy 3D benchmarks, where you can use any number of GPUs, since they don't scale with GPU power anyway. That would open up to the use of older setups... But in general, for me older hw=hw-points...not globals

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Rauf said:

I don't understand, you want to bench for globals on GTX 780 sli or what? Take a look at Time spy 2-way ranking. the first non titan or 2080ti/1080ti setup is a dual 1080 setup. It's still pretty high end and it gets 2 global points...

If you mean legacy benchmarks I can understand it, but they are not really 3D anymore... Maybe one solution would be to have one ranking for all legacy 3D benchmarks, where you can use any number of GPUs, since they don't scale with GPU power anyway. That would open up to the use of older setups... But in general, for me older hw=hw-points...not globals

WTF???

A 3D bench is and always will be a 3D bench, doesn't make sense in the way you put it.

If someone wants to have a go for globals with a GTX 780 I say let them have at it, it's their time, money and hardware to run and all that to waste if they want. Thing is some CAN do it, doesn't make sense to simply cut them out of contention based on the age of their hardware alone.

More competiton is competition no matter what form it takes as long as it's done within the rules set in place.

BTW we've walked this path before..... And don't understand why we have to again.

Edited by Bones
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8 hours ago, richba5tard said:

After discussing the member points algorithm (both seasonal and carreer) with George for a bit I'd like to make a suggestion:

Instead of top X total points which count towards your member points:

  • top X global points
  • top X hardware points (preferably same X to keep things easy to explain, but I can be convinced if need be)
  • no benchmark/worldrecord points for crazy quad sli/crossfire setups, but an award/achievement instead

This would close the gap between $$$ and skill further.

Thank you for listening to the community feedback!

My biggest complaint about rev8 was the hardware point situation. I'm glad you finally changed your mind :) 

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14 minutes ago, Bones said:

WTF???

A 3D bench is and always will be a 3D bench, doesn't make sense in the way you put it.

 If someone wants to have a go for globals with a GTX 780 I say let them have at it, it's their time, money and hardware to run and all that to waste if they want. Thing is some CAN do it, doesn't make sense to simply cut them out of contention based on the age of their hardware alone.

More competiton is competition no matter what form it takes as long as it's done within the rules set in place.

BTW we've walked this path before..... And don't understand why we have to again.

For me a 3D-bench measures GPU performance. They are after all in the "videocard" category...legacy 3D benchmarks measure mostly CPU performance. But the definition is not really the point here, and you are missing it. I don't want to limit anyone from using whatever setup they want. My point was that removing globals from 3/4-way setups does not affect anyone who uses older/cheaper hw, as they don't get any globals anyway.

For legacy 3D there might be a reason the allow SLI/CF setups of older/cheaper cards as they are capable of doing well enough for globals with a strong CPU. And I don't see why you could not allow any GPU-config for legacy 3D if community wants it. Just don't have separate rankings for it, as it does not scale, and gives way to many 3D-rankings to get easy points in. The problem might be coding it, as hw-points still need separate rankings for diff SLI/CF setups.

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45 minutes ago, Rauf said:

I don't understand, you want to bench for globals on GTX 780 sli or what? Take a look at Time spy 2-way ranking. the first non titan or 2080ti/1080ti setup is a dual 1080 setup. It's still pretty high end and it gets 2 global points...

If you mean legacy benchmarks I can understand it, but they are not really 3D anymore... Maybe one solution would be to have one ranking for all legacy 3D benchmarks, where you can use any number of GPUs, since they don't scale with GPU power anyway. That would open up to the use of older setups... But in general, for me older hw=hw-points...not globals

For me the global points in multi vga must remain, you can make points with low-cost vga (gtx 580 and old ati / amd) on 3d legacy.
Otherwise a user to do global is forced to use expensive vga with equally expensive cpu because the recent bench uses a lot of cores.
Not everyone has thousands of euros to invest on a platform to make points.

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8 minutes ago, ale_belo said:

For me the global points in multi vga must remain, you can make points with low-cost vga (gtx 580 and old ati / amd) on 3d legacy.
Otherwise a user to do global is forced to use expensive vga with equally expensive cpu because the recent bench uses a lot of cores.
Not everyone has thousands of euros to invest on a platform to make points.

An unstable, ever changing platform.

Think of any competitive activity, where rules and structure keep changing and changing and changing...eternally.

How can someone sit down and make a basic plan for the next 12 months ?

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9 hours ago, richba5tard said:

After discussing the member points algorithm (both seasonal and carreer) with George for a bit I'd like to make a suggestion:

Instead of top X total points which count towards your member points:

  • top X global points
  • top X hardware points (preferably same X to keep things easy to explain, but I can be convinced if need be)
  • no benchmark/worldrecord points for crazy quad sli/crossfire setups, but an award/achievement instead

This would close the gap between $$$ and skill further.

This looks great to me. Current WR points are silly. 

One could argue if 2d is easy just bin a cpu and sit back for 30 seconds, one could argue get binned vgas from a manufacturer sit back for 2 minutes and collect 450 points :D (not trying to offend)

popularity should bring the points imo if 2d is more popular it should be worth more

2 cents 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Rauf said:

1: For me a 3D-bench measures GPU performance. They are after all in the "videocard" category...legacy 3D benchmarks measure mostly CPU performance. But the definition is not really the point here, and you are missing it.

2: I don't want to limit anyone from using whatever setup they want. My point was that removing globals from 3/4-way setups does not affect anyone who uses older/cheaper hw, as they don't get any globals anyway.

For legacy 3D there might be a reason the allow SLI/CF setups of older/cheaper cards as they are capable of doing well enough for globals with a strong CPU. And I don't see why you could not allow any GPU-config for legacy 3D if community wants it. Just don't have separate rankings for it, as it does not scale, and gives way to many 3D-rankings to get easy points in. The problem might be coding it, as hw-points still need separate rankings for diff SLI/CF setups.

To point one indicated in the quote - The definition itself does matter or you coudn't call it either a 2 or 3D bench at all. Regardless of how the bench itself works it still has to be referred to or called something in some way definitively for it to be in a given category. I understand the point about a 3D bench testing the card and that's true but we ourselves have no way to make it work differently than it was made to be short of hacking it - We all know that's just not cool nor legal by the rules.

I'm not arguing whether a legacy 3D bench works off the CPU to any extent or not here, if it was originally made to be a 3D bench then that's what it is by intended purpose if anything when created.

BTW I am against placing limits on things, let the guys go for it if they want to.

Point 2: I do agree the points system is in need of changing, at least to an extent. However if someone sees they cannot do anything to be worth the trouble that alone makes it a limitation. This does need to be addressed in some way and should be done in such a way it's fair to those that either want to or have to run the older stuff.

If there is no incentive at all to run the older stuff you'll see new guys no longer appearing - There has to be something at the end to achieve, some goal to work towards and not everyone is crapping $$ to buy the newest and best out there with. Think for a sec, how many folks IF given a chance and would try it could be good or even great.

Like in music for example, that guy that never expressed an interest in music or had a chance to learn and prove it could have the talent/potential to have been one of the very best but said talent was never realized because they didn't take interest or had a chance to find out if they did have it in the first place. No telling how many over time could have been as good or even better than what we know of but missed out because they never did it or had a chance to. Same applies to this, we should be making it as easy as possible for someone to get started but only that, get started that is.

If they have the chops they'll prove it in time, that being the real test which is something that's all up to them.

We can't hold their hand nor should we be expected to. 

That's just my take on it.

Edited by Bones
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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, richba5tard said:

The reason has been explained earlier in this topic: because career points accumulate forever and new members would never have a chance beating old (and maybe inactive) members who participated in competitions. On top of that, nearly every other sports ranking resets yearly. Keeping all points forever and no way to beat them creates a closed and stale ranking system.

Competition pts already reset after 1 year, but on a rolling basis. Your proposed change would be based on the calendar year so CC points (for example) would expire mere weeks after they've been earned. Not only that, they would also not count towards the main ranking :(

Edited by unityofsaints
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CC points is a country based competition, they don't count toward member points anyway. Neither do team competitions. 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, richba5tard said:

CC points is a country based competition, they don't count toward member points anyway. Neither do team competitions. 

Top 10 competitions (including team comps) count towards world ranking currently. Not sure what you mean by "member points"? Maybe league ranking? World ranking is the first one to get listed on the homepage and includes everyone in one ranking so it's the most important one imo.

Edited by unityofsaints
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Ok i may be mistaken about CC points. But even though your seasonal points are reset in 2020, competitions at the end of 2019 still give you a boost for your 2019 ranking, which is set in stone on dec 31st.

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18 hours ago, Splave said:

This looks great to me. Current WR points are silly. 

 One could argue if 2d is easy just bin a cpu and sit back for 30 seconds, one could argue get binned vgas from a manufacturer sit back for 2 minutes and collect 450 points :D (not trying to offend)

popularity should bring the points imo if 2d is more popular it should be worth more

2 cents 

I didn't mean to offend either :) But to be fair benching 3D requires binned cpu AND vga :D

But seriously, maybe hwbot should take a more passive role and don't take a stand to subjective opinions on what should be rewarded and what not. Just give same points to all benchmarks regardless 2D, 3D, "skill", cost, popularity etc. If popularity is rewarded we just end up with XTU situation again... This should also make algorithms easy and reduce server load and maintenance

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On 1/7/2019 at 9:47 AM, DanKadr said:

I think comps should have a bigger  affect on the scoring, or we will see less and less people joining them. They fill like more of a side quest that you do whenever you’re bored, then a part of the main game here. 

 

Next to no enthusiasm to participate when I know the LN2 sandbags drop & smash my water cooling scores to bits

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