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Should we simplify the leagues in 2019 and on or not?

Simplify member leagues or not   

91 members have voted

  1. 1. Simplify member leagues or not

    • 2 leagues: sponsored and not sponsored
    • 6 leagues: extreme / elite / enthusiast / apprentice / rookie / novice


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Ozz is chilled :P I know his writing 

Why not 3 leagues ,air/water , apprentice and extreme with sponsored and not sponsored together

Suzuki you wrote above in bold. I like that approach

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Because one of the main issues with the league split is verifying the cooling, and since if you can't verify the cooling, it nullifies the point of the league split.

 

Maybe if all achievements were changed from xth position in league to xxxx points people wouldn't mind? If you're improving your points and your overall position, why does it matter if it's out of a small subset or the total group?

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1 hour ago, suzuki said:

I think most of them will sell the hardware. I just bought a ss because i thought i will be staying in apprentice and not a cascade to compete with ln2 users.

Why not 3 leagues ,air/water , aprrentice and extreme with sponsored and not sponsored together,Why sponsored need separate league ? (You make this split for max 50 people) If you want to push your hardware to extreme ln2 cooling than you afford to compete with the top guys which get sponsored for this,prove your worth and you will be one of them,this is not my target nor to almost the whole database besides the less than 1000 people which do ln2.

Well, the biggest difference I can see is who has the money for it.

If sponsored there isn't alot of expense involved from one's own pocket, if paying out of pocket then it's not as easy to even have the stuff or would you be as "Lucky" to get that golden chip. I already own everything I need to run LN2 BUT I don't have money to spare to get it with the expense of it. Some of us could actually do it but due to a lack of funds for such, just ain't happening - Not that's it's the bot's problem mind you, just how it is.

Like myself there's several guys here that have the skills and could go on a rampage if they were simply able to run LN2 vs what they've been doing and nothing else - Frankly I'd love to but my circumstances won't allow for it. Maybe that will change later but gotta make do with things as is.

Yes, it's a choice but again it's not, circumstances always dictates who does what and from person to person, everyone's is different.

However..... I do like the idea of just having three leagues as stated above, no need to prove anything cooling related and it becomes a "Run what you brung and just hope you're brought enough" kind of thing.

I can deal with that.

Edited by Bones
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4 minutes ago, GeorgeStorm said:

Because one of the main issues with the league split is verifying the cooling, and since if you can't verify the cooling, it nullifies the point of the league split.

 

Maybe if all achievements were changed from xth position in league to xxxx points people wouldn't mind? If you're improving your points and your overall position, why does it matter if it's out of a small subset or the total group?

It may just be an interim solution.

HWbot has so many idea's thrown around with these revisions. Not a fan of big change & upheaval. Something that works & most members are happy :)

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By simplifying the leagues into 3 based on sponsored, non sponsored and rookie will benefit Hwbot staff in many ways, from less demanding code maintenance to the fact that you can't verify the cooling method. I've seen by myself a lot of subs that are questionable about the correct cooling method used, and i'm not even a staff moderator, can you guys imagine how many questionable cooling method submissions Hwbot mods have seen here since the beggining?...

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I think a better solutions to the overwhelming workflow is to put a subscription tax,do not invent problems where there are none.

Regarding sponsored vs unsponsored,everyone started from scratch,work your way up if you want to be sponsored and don’t bitch arround here in order to affect others. Bullant is a perfect example of person who is modest and really good about what he is doing and you don’t see him in this polemics.

Why should everyone have to be obliged to go ln2 when they don’t want to ? Get a job people,it will allow you to have money for your passion as well,do not hope that this one becomes your main source of revenue. 

I have everything i want nowadays,i need just time to bench all of the stuff i gathered,but i worked for everything i have,12 hrs or more daily ,6 days a week and come here to see people whining that they are not sponsored , ffs.

 

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3 hours ago, ozzie said:

to me, sponsored go in their own, different altogether

ln2, dice, ss, phase change go to extreme,

air and ambient water stay on their own

chilled water, im hung on that, not sure whats fair to all on chilled or ice water where it should go,   like what i use the best ive ever got is -5c no load,off 

I use cold water the best I have ever had is + 2c no load and 10c under load, I moved over to apprentice because its the right thing to do, I intend to build a chiller and that will probably be the coldest I will go. I enjoy seeing how many people I can beat  who use LN2 that is my fun don't really care where I am in the standings.

Here is the problem I face in Team and Country cups I have very little chance to contribute because all the top scores are taken by the guys who use cooler methods. 

Quote Jumper118

Unless there is a law in your country saying you cant buy dice or ln2 then you are choosing to be slow. Its as simple as that. Its like turning up to and f1 race and saying, look guys i am only going to run 4cyl even though you are running v8, you should make my own special class so i can be a winner too. 

This is ridiculas HWBOT has always been huge majority enthusiasts XOC and Elite together account for 1% of the Enthusiasts, if the majority packed in then I doubt HWBOT could exist on Elite and XOC.

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26 minutes ago, kimandsally said:

This is ridiculas HWBOT has always been huge majority enthusiasts XOC and Elite together account for 1% of the Enthusiasts, if the majority packed in then I doubt HWBOT could exist on Elite and XOC.

I wonder what the numbers would look like if you could filter out all of the inactive members. You do realize everyone who registers to hwbot gets put in enthusiast league after 1 year, even if they only made 1 submission and never returned.

Also just so you guys know, getting some vendor support doesn't suddenly make this hobby free :)

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4 minutes ago, bigblock990 said:

I wonder what the numbers would look like if you could filter out all of the inactive members.

Who can know the real number of members uploading scores now? So curious.

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My vote is 3 leagues. Elite, Extreme & Enthusiast/rookie. Also, I do not think Enthusiast should be able to make extreme cooling submissions with points turned off (outside of special oc gathering events) and stay in the Enthusiast league. They have clearly demonstrated the capability/access to Extreme cooling  & any of their further submissions with "ambient cooling" are suspect. More so than usual.

Edited by rtsurfer
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7 hours ago, suzuki said:

I think a better solutions to the overwhelming workflow is to put a subscription tax,do not invent problems where there are none.

Regarding sponsored vs unsponsored,everyone started from scratch,work your way up if you want to be sponsored and don’t bitch arround here in order to affect others. Bullant is a perfect example of person who is modest and really good about what he is doing and you don’t see him in this polemics.

Why should everyone have to be obliged to go ln2 when they don’t want to ? Get a job people,it will allow you to have money for your passion as well,do not hope that this one becomes your main source of revenue. 

I have everything i want nowadays,i need just time to bench all of the stuff i gathered,but i worked for everything i have,12 hrs or more daily ,6 days a week and come here to see people whining that they are not sponsored , ffs.

 

If you really want it that badly then certainly it's obtainable, no question about that and can only speak for myself - So I will.

I personally don't care about being sponsored, if it happens so be it but either way I'll still be going at it like always. If a sponsor does decide to give me a shot I'll hit it as hard as I can to prove my worth, not taking the chance for granted should it present itself.

In my case it's not about a job - I'm actually in the process of filing for disability because of heart problems (2 previous heart attacks) so "Getting a job" isn't doable in my case anymore. Again, circumstances determine what one can or cannot do and unfortunately these aren't always within one's control, you do what you can and certainly what you have to at the very least. I do it because it's something I Iove doing and for me it's also a way to pass the time (Plenty of that now) and take my mind off of things.

So no - I'm not bitching, just telling it like it is, at least in my case.

Edited by Bones
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I voted for 2 leagues , but i would prefer a 3 league solution , being as :

1 - Rookies/Novice (aircooled - watercooled setups only) 6 months time frame

2 - Amateurs/Hobbyists (everything goes)

3 - Elite/Pros/Sponsored

 

Edited by TASOS
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If 2 leagues are they totally separate? 2 rankings for every single bench?  that seems like it might increase the workload and dilute the database.

Or would it be like

1-joeblow 1900xtu 150pts (sponsored)

2-blowjoe 1850xtu 125pts (sponsored)

3-lowjoeb 1825xtu 150pts (non sponsored)

4-objoeblo 1823xtu 110pts (sponsored)

 

IE non sponsored would get full points for being first place non sponsored in the list?

 

 

Edited by Splave
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I do like the idea of only 2 leagues.

But having older gen ES (that has no clear advantage over others) surely should not make me Sponsored/Elite? 

(Especially if won during a competition or bought publicly) 

Edited by ginger_nuts81
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8 hours ago, suzuki said:

I think a better solutions to the overwhelming workflow is to put a subscription tax,do not invent problems where there are none.

Regarding sponsored vs unsponsored,everyone started from scratch,work your way up if you want to be sponsored and don’t bitch arround here in order to affect others. Bullant is a perfect example of person who is modest and really good about what he is doing and you don’t see him in this polemics.

Why should everyone have to be obliged to go ln2 when they don’t want to ? Get a job people,it will allow you to have money for your passion as well,do not hope that this one becomes your main source of revenue. 

I have everything i want nowadays,i need just time to bench all of the stuff i gathered,but i worked for everything i have,12 hrs or more daily ,6 days a week and come here to see people whining that they are not sponsored , ffs.

 

Having a job isn't enough anymore my man. S/H modern parts are still expensive. 10 core x299 here in Australia atm $1449AU Retail.

I'd like Apprentice league to stay. It's a small enough jump for members experimenting cold & 6Ghz on their processors. 6 leagues combined into 3.

Enthusiasts / Apprentice / Extreme.

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39 minutes ago, ginger_nuts81 said:

I do like the idea of only 2 leagues.

But having older gen ES (that has no clear advantage over others) surely should not make me Sponsored/Elite? 

(Especially if won during a competition or bought publicly) 

This is already the rules. Only current gen ES puts you in elite.

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19 minutes ago, avalanche said:

Having a job isn't enough anymore my man. S/H modern parts are still expensive. 10 core x299 here in Australia atm $1449AU Retail.

I'd like Apprentice league to stay. It's a small enough jump for members experimenting cold & 6Ghz on their processors. 6 leagues combined into 3.

Enthusiasts / Apprentice / Extreme.

Depends on what you like to spend money, last gen hardware is always expensive and fortunatelly for me i never feel the desire to buy those.( the same goes for anything older than ddr3 :)) ).

Enthusiasts / Apprentice / Extreme - i agree.

This dispute with sponsored/unsponsored is as old as subzero used in enthusiast.

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8 hours ago, bigblock990 said:

Also just so you guys know, getting some vendor support doesn't suddenly make this hobby free :)

What people always forget.

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2 hours ago, Splave said:

If 2 leagues are they totally separate? 2 rankings for every single bench?  that seems like it might increase the workload and dilute the database.

Or would it be like

1-joeblow 1900xtu 150pts (sponsored)

2-blowjoe 1850xtu 125pts (sponsored)

3-lowjoeb 1825xtu 150pts (non sponsored)

4-objoeblo 1823xtu 110pts (sponsored)

 

IE non sponsored would get full points for being first place non sponsored in the list?

 

 

Points system should be the highest score gets the most points and go down from there regardless of weather you are sponsored or not or what league you are in.

As for the people that want to save the Apprentice league its a nothing rubbish league get rid of it.

When I was enthusiast I was 10th then I started using Dice and went into Extreme and I was happy then they made the Apprentice league and I was No.1 did I feel good about it NO its a nothing in between league it just gives people that aint near the top a way of feeling good about themselves.

Frederick is trying to streamline the place making it fast and easy for him to maintain and everyone wants to save this and that and were talking about 2 point systems Jesus he cant win. 

Edited by macsbeach98
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16 minutes ago, macsbeach98 said:

Points system should be the highest score gets the most points and go down from there regardless of weather you are sponsored or not or what league you are in.

As for the people that want to save the Apprentice league its a nothing rubbish league get rid of it.

When I was enthusiast I was 10th then I started using Dice and went into Extreme and I was happy then they made the Apprentice league and I was No.1 did I feel good about it NO its a nothing in between league it just gives people that aint near the top a way of feeling good about themselves.

Frederick is trying to streamline the place making it fast and easy for him to maintain and everyone wants to save this and that and were talking about 2 point systems Jesus he cant win. 

Truth.

 

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You cant complain the ln2 cooling is not accessible because of money either. Its just a lie, if you benched ln2 on socket 775 chips you could gets loads of points vs an ambient watercooled setup with a 7980xe and a 2080ti. 

7980ex water cooled system is going to set you back like £3000 with used parts ? 

ln2 is cheaper

pot £200

dewar £600

2x 775 boards £200

ddr2 binned £50

10 binned cpus £200

a crap tier gpu to display things £10

Thats £1260 so you can get over 1000L of ln2 before its even close to an ambient system which is worth less points, but cost more, so you this is the same price as even a mainstream setup under water with 9900k and half decent modern gpu's like gtx580, hd7970. 

 

So you cant use split leagues by cooling because of cost as an excuse. Someone with more money on ambient can beat you just as easily as someone with same or less on LN2. You arent giving yourself and advantage by money, only reducing competition by number of people in league alone.

Edited by Jumper118
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Sorry about thread crapping, but Ln2 is not that cheap everywhere. 

Some here pay $4aud per litre. So conversions mean 1000L is aboit 2,600 euro.

 

Dewars are extremely rare 2nd hand as well here. Brand new, around the 1,200 euro

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2 minutes ago, ginger_nuts81 said:

Sorry about thread crapping, but Ln2 is not that cheap everywhere. 

Some here pay $4aud per litre. So conversions mean 1000L is aboit 2,600 euro.

 

Dewars are extremely rare 2nd hand as well here. Brand new, around the 1,200 euro

It still doesnt change the fact that someone can spend more on ambient. 

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2 hours ago, macsbeach98 said:

Points system should be the highest score gets the most points and go down from there regardless of weather you are sponsored or not or what league you are in.

As for the people that want to save the Apprentice league its a nothing rubbish league get rid of it.

When I was enthusiast I was 10th then I started using Dice and went into Extreme and I was happy then they made the Apprentice league and I was No.1 did I feel good about it NO its a nothing in between league it just gives people that aint near the top a way of feeling good about themselves.

Frederick is trying to streamline the place making it fast and easy for him to maintain and everyone wants to save this and that and were talking about 2 point systems Jesus he cant win. 

And with Apprentice League, let's not mention that it's an absolutely TERRIBLE name for a league.  Apprentice is such a downwards step from Enthusiast.

51 minutes ago, Jumper118 said:

Thats £1260 so you can get over 1000L of ln2 before its even close to an ambient system which is worth less points, but cost more, so you this is the same price as even a mainstream setup under water with 9900k and half decent modern gpu's like gtx580, hd7970.

LN2 is $7 CAD per liter where I live ($4-4.50 CAD per liter if you're lucky and really REALLY butter up the sales guy PLUS make use of the fact you work for one of their supplies!), and dewars are at least $600 CAD for a small, 20L "cheap" one - a 35L can be upwards of $1,200 CAD brand new depending on which company you purchase from.  Most areas it's something that's stupidly expensive.  A usable water cooling setup that can handle a number of things is usually only a few hundred dollars, and the only real ongoing cost is replacing the coolant every now and then...

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