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Should we simplify the leagues in 2019 and on or not?

Simplify member leagues or not   

91 members have voted

  1. 1. Simplify member leagues or not

    • 2 leagues: sponsored and not sponsored
    • 6 leagues: extreme / elite / enthusiast / apprentice / rookie / novice


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Folks,

Whatever is decided is neutral for me.

I bench for FUN. I do not care for rankings and I do not mind being first or last.

Recognition, honors, medals on the web ???

Illusions.

Seek all these in real life. That I can understand.

Just one thing to be clear, for those believing that being a sponsored member is all joy and money and prizes.

NOONE can become F1 driver without basting his ass from the age of 6-7 years in go-carts and then climbing the ladder.

I have quite a few TOP DOG very good friends here and I can tell you for sure that their obligations against sponsors are HUGE.

 

 

 

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I'm sponsored, but is i'am elite? Not sure, i can't choose between them because 6 leagues cooling can't be verified, and 2 leagues probably make me low rank because i dont have that much money. Better define what pro is ...

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Call it what you like. If you are sponsored, you are elite. Doesn't matter if you do or don't have money.

Edited by Mr.Scott
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4 hours ago, ginger_nuts81 said:

Sorry about thread crapping, but Ln2 is not that cheap everywhere. 

Some here pay $4aud per litre. So conversions mean 1000L is aboit 2,600 euro.

 

Dewars are extremely rare 2nd hand as well here. Brand new, around the 1,200 euro

Same price as me only good thing is it comes to my front door.:)

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Ok so if reducing the no. of leagues really helps with maintenance and modding costs I'd break it down like this:

  1. Rookie - Cheap to maintain (just a 3 month cutoff), encourages fresh blood = stays
  2. Novice - Just another time-limited league, Novice Nimble comps no longer run, what's the difference to enthusiast anymore? = remove
  3. Enthusiast - Really messy to mod due to the cold climates / H2O vs. chiller issues = remove
  4. Apprentice - We need a league between extreme and rookie. Maybe redesigned a bit to include cascade? = stays
  5. Extreme - Tons and tons of activity here as LN2 is very popular. Need a league that is the "opposite" of apprentice = stays
  6. Elite - Messiest to moderate! What exactly is sponsorship? Are there enough sponsored OCers to make up a ranking? I say it's not worth the overhead = remove

So I would be happy with staying with the current system or condensing the rankings down to at least 3 leagues.

Fewer leagues than that would be annoying to work with and cause too many OCers to give up or not even join in the first place imo.

Edited by unityofsaints
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Agreed, no need elite, just Extreme League, sponsorship is Extreme, want join Pro OC Cup doesnt need Elite, what if extreme can beat elite as example? :)

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well i would suggest this speed ^^^ , if extreme can beat elite then that elite doesnt have the right elite hardware or they are'nt as good as as an elite  as they think, or the extreme has the hardware the elite should've got but didnt , or hes and extremely elite overclocker that maybe should think moving from extreme and going to elite  🙂

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If you want sponsored sometimes it not just about beating someone, better do the with what you have and push it to the max. Beating someone is just bonus.

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4 hours ago, unityofsaints said:

Ok so if reducing the no. of leagues really helps with maintenance and modding costs I'd break it down like this:

  1. Rookie - Cheap to maintain (just a 3 month cutoff), encourages fresh blood = stays
  2. Novice - Just another time-limited league, Novice Nimble comps no longer run, what's the difference to enthusiast anymore? = remove
  3. Enthusiast - Really messy to mod due to the cold climates / H2O vs. chiller issues = remove
  4. Apprentice - We need a league between extreme and rookie. Maybe redesigned a bit to include cascade? = stays
  5. Extreme - Tons and tons of activity here as LN2 is very popular. Need a league that is the "opposite" of apprentice = stays
  6. Elite - Messiest to moderate! What exactly is sponsorship? Are there enough sponsored OCers to make up a ranking? I say it's not worth the overhead = remove

So I would be happy with staying with the current system or condensing the rankings down to at least 3 leagues.

Fewer leagues than that would be annoying to work with and cause too many OCers to give up or not even join in the first place imo.

Have to disagree with a few points.

No way the average joe shmo will be able to compete with sponsored guys, only those with deep pockets would be able to make a good run at it.

Their advantage is obvious - They can get multiple examples of chips, board, GPU's, RAM and such to bin then use the best out of the bunch to run and yes, it happens. For the average guy this simply isn't possible and that's one big reason sponsored guys have a league of their own (Elite) and quite frankly, they actually need it.

 

However....... Here's an idea.

Something amounting to an "Elite" comp/class for those that qualify from the extreme rankings IF Elite/Extreme are indeed lumped together anyway, however anyone would be able to try and see if they can qualify regardless of class.

That can also be just those from the combined class of Elite/Extreme would be eligible to try for it if desired. This would create both, competition within the proposed class AND opportunity for those that may want to take a shot at it.

Regardless, that is to say it could be a seasonal thing in that once a year you gotta earn your spot just to even be called "Elite" and that classification would hold for a full season, repeating things to qualify/remain in for the next season.

Voluntary of course and like it was in a few past comps once you're in it's for that season period. Being in however would qualify you for such "Elite" events and comps if that's your thing but if not well.... There's always next year.

If there are a limited number of spots in such a league, that would make for some competition just to claim one of those with this qualification being done in the month of January each year if they'd like.

In short - Wanna be called "Elite"?

You gotta earn your spot and prove it each year.

I know most in the current Elite class have already proven it but personally it seems crazy to me I have more points total than at least some of the Elite's, just doesn't seem right but that's how it is, hence the suggestion not only earn but to keep your Elite status. It would also make the term "Elite" mean just that.

 

As to classes:

Rookie: Definitely need that for the new guys.

As ot the rest - Novice needs to go, it's like the appendix of the bot - Useless.

A non-LN2 league all else would have to be in regardless, basically combining Apprentice and Enthusiast leagues.

Extreme for those that do run LN2.

 

So.... This is what I've got.

Rookie:

Enthusiast/Apprentice:

Extreme:

Elite by seasonal qualification only.

Please remember this is just a suggestion guys - Could be food for thought for something in a different form than suggested and doesn't even have to be done with this revision, could be done with a later revision too.

Thoughts?

Edited by Bones
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I mostly agree with Bones' proposal, but I disagree with the Enthusiast/Apprentice/Extreme split.

In my opinion I think it should be split generally between if you're benching at sub-zero temperatures or not. Thus I would suggest the lineup being:

Novice - I prefer the name Novice over Rookie, but still an introductory 3 - 6 month league or whatever

Enthusiast - ambient benchers but also chillers and low ambient benchers due to the difficulty in validating these sorts of things. I imagine some current 'enthusiasts' use ice buckets/chillers/very low ambients already so I just say fuck it and let it be. I'd rather be competing with ice buckets/chillers than people on SS/cascade/dice in the "non-LN2" league with some of the proposals put forward here.

Extreme - single stage, cascade, dice, LN2

Elite - as per Bones' suggestion

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Not bad - We'll have to see what other ideas are suggested and let the guys decide what they want.

I can go with it however it winds up being. 😎

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10 minutes ago, Cautilus said:

I'd rather be competing with ice buckets/chillers than people on SS/cascade/dice in the "non-LN2" league with some of the proposals put forward here.

But you're already competing with those people, everyone competes with everyone? You can filter the rankings to only include certain types of cooling if you want to, change leagues/league names doesn't change the number of points people have relative to each other. If you were 2nd in apprentice league, you'd still be 2nd out of people just using 'apprentice' cooling even if the apprentice league was no longer a thing, just that ranking wouldn't appear on your profile, just the overall ranking no?

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Just go with macsbeach proposal. I voted x2 league anyways simplify this rot. Non Sponsored / Sponsored. 2/3 in here like it :P

Try hard / Go hard

 

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Just a heads up on the "sponsored thing", besides maybe a dozen of peeps here noone is really sponsored in the Elite class.

Defining sponsored is far from what most think, get all hardware for free and bench it... especially if you receive one sample for a limited period of time

I'm there becasue I could get my hands on ES samples for reviewing purposes and testing... Were these binned chips, nope besides a lucky 5960X I received (which had to be given back after the article...)

So forget that Elite scores always need to be better than maybe extreme ones? Nope as it all will depend on how good the samples are, read it is not always about the skill...

Also taking into account if you get freebies for a limited amount of time like me I, main objective was to properly test for the launch article (bios debugging and crap) and do LN2 in a half a day.. no way to maximize efficiency at all... but yep I could do some scores with less money spend than if I had to buy a retail CPU... so not complaining at all...

 

I'm in for above propositions, but I would split up from Single stage cooling on like Bones suggested

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1 minute ago, GeorgeStorm said:

But you're already competing with those people, everyone competes with everyone? You can filter the rankings to only include certain types of cooling if you want to, change leagues/league names doesn't change the number of points people have relative to each other. If you were 2nd in apprentice league, you'd still be 2nd out of people just using 'apprentice' cooling even if the apprentice league was no longer a thing, just that ranking wouldn't appear on your profile, just the overall ranking no?

Yeah that's true, in each individual ranking (hardware, 1x global etc.) I'd be competing against everyone. I have no issue with that, I agree with the sentiment that if you wanna get more points in individual rankings you should be willing to up your game and use better cooling. But this comes down to why people are here participating in HWBOT. I enjoy benching, but I also enjoy competing against my peers in the overall league ranking. The overclocker leagues provide an easy and highly visible way to compare yourself against your peers. Sure I could filter the world ranking for water/air, but that doesn't provide the same satisfaction. I want to be able to say: "I'm going to be the top ranked enthusiast bencher", because that's an awesome goal. Not just: "I'm going to be #300 on the career ranking, which just also happens to be just above where the current top ranked ambient bencher is".

That's just what I place value in with HWBOT, obviously people will be here for different reasons and that's okay and at the end of the day, I'll still be here if we do go for the 2 league system despite it not being my preferred outcome.

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10 minutes ago, avalanche said:

Just go with macsbeach proposal. I voted x2 league anyways simplify this rot. Non Sponsored / Sponsored. 2/3 in here like it :P

Try hard / Go hard

 

That's what I voted for myself.

What I proposed is something that doesn't have to be done right away, can be done later in another revision if need be but just thought I had and possibly something for the future..... Or with this revision if desired.

Up to the guys how it goes and I'm good with whatever they decide. 😎

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Keep the name like Extreme, Enthusiast/Aprrentice, and Rookie, but just 1 scoring system, so change league doesnt change your rank and that would be great. Elite status is just name anyway, so it doesnt matter if there is elite name or not...

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Yeah I know ... but it's another poll now. I liked the x3 leagues. Just like stepping stones up.

What to do? Voted 2 leagues.

We can all argue this to death. Elites have & Cooling not proven. That's discussion thus far compressed.

Rookie / Searcher / Extreme  ... pick something for the middle :)

_______

 

edit. Ah yes. Some one mentioned Journey man .. that was cool too

Edited by avalanche
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Don't shoot the messenger ie me :P

Way out there ... x1 league. The cooling you use don't mean shit. Biggest score makes best points.

We are all concerned on rookie involvement to get them started. 6 months % boost on new members scores

Edited by avalanche
L in cooling. Keyboard error or beer
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1 hour ago, avalanche said:

Don't shoot the messenger ie me :P

Way out there ... x1 league. The cooling you use don't mean shit. Biggest score makes best points.

We are all concerned on rookie involvement to get them started. 6 months % boost on new members scores

For those with a weak memory, we have ALL BEEN rookies at some point in our first steps here :)

Indeed, the tactic of taking a baby and throwing it in cold water with sharks around, in order to learn how to swim, is far from basic sanity.

Rookies MUST have an accommodation period of time to get "in the spirit".

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Some of you don’t know that some chillers can be more powerfull than most ss like vapochill :). And dimastech stuff.

Not to mention on heavy load ...

 

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So since sponsorship doesn't really matter and cooling is almost impossible to verify I think the real question is why do we have leagues? Enthusiast league has always been about who can pretend that they aren't dunking their rad in ice the best. Apprentice league is kinda silly as it's just extreme league jr., rookie/novice league is the only split that makes any sense as it's pretty damn easy to verify how long someone has been on the bot. 

So my proposal is 2 leagues, Rookie and Enthusiast, with no cooling limitations in either. You start out in rookie league and after you've been on the bot for so long you bump up to Enthusiast league. Splitting leagues by cooling is silly at this point and introduces undue administrative overhead.

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Hey,

I don't really have preference and expertise on how to divide leagues, just wanted to add some more point about the 'Elite / sponsored' status.

I do get some samples sometime, so I moved my account to elite because I consider myself slightly more fortunate than others who tried hard with their fully-hard-earned hardwares. (Honestly speaking I personally don't think I deserve the elite status if we were talking about knowledge and skills alone, I'm no top-10-world-ranked bencher material, just an average motherboard and RAM reviewer who got lucky in competitions a lot, and like to know more about things + share if it was useful)

How much samples?

I got around 1 motherboard per gen,  usually for testing before a certain platform's launch date. Most of these motherboard also not always a 'retail pack', because those were prepped for extreme benching, sometime even these were an ES board with a couple workaround here and there so can't really sell it.  RAM also around 1 kit per gen/platform (or if there wasn't anything new, then around 2 kits per year). GPU not so much - one or two per 3-4 year maybe, I don't bench 3D much anyway as my main job is CPU/MB/RAM coverage.

If the motherboard don't come with CPU then I need to buy retail CPU for it, (if provided it's most likely ES, random quality, sometimes good, sometimes average), and GPU if I need to buy to bench 3D. Most of the time I still buy CPU/MB/RAM on my own though, as most big competitions need to buy retail hardwares for it, and bin CPU if needed (for gskill ocwc this year I binned 8x 8600K)

As far as expenses go, these 'free' samples did help (not exactly 'free; though as I need to work providing feedback and workaround, sometimes providing testing documentation if necessary to the MB vendors), but not as much to make profit with it :)

edit: Forgot to vote, I'm OK with 3:

 

1) Elite/Pro/Sponsored

2) All Others not limited by cooling (as we cannot be completely certain/validate cooling method)

3) Rookie (with time constraint - not sure how long though, should be 6 month or 1 year maybe?)

Edited by Lucky_n00b
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