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richba5tard

Should we simplify the leagues in 2019 and on or not?

Simplify member leagues or not   

91 members have voted

  1. 1. Simplify member leagues or not

    • 2 leagues: sponsored and not sponsored
    • 6 leagues: extreme / elite / enthusiast / apprentice / rookie / novice


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As discussed here, what is the preferred way forward? I have a slight favor of simplifying, as it's less code to maintain and cooling can not be enforced anyway.

 

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From memory, there were 2/3 leagues when I joined (extreme and not, and then maybe sponsored).

When I came back there were suddenly many more, whilst I understand it to a degree, as others have said, proving cooling is a nightmare, and probably causes more issues than it solves.

I do think it might be nice keeping the novice/rookie league, as a way for new members to have a more granular/relevant ranking.

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1 hour ago, GeorgeStorm said:

From memory, there were 2/3 leagues when I joined (extreme and not, and then maybe sponsored).

When I came back there were suddenly many more, whilst I understand it to a degree, as others have said, proving cooling is a nightmare, and probably causes more issues than it solves.

I do think it might be nice keeping the novice/rookie league, as a way for new members to have a more granular/relevant ranking.

It was elite, extreme and enthusiast originally. Apprentice, rookie and novice were added in later. 

 

There are advantages and disadvantages to both systems. 

2 leagues 

Pro's

Easier to manage

Does not create arguments about who uses what cooling. 

Has good incentives to move to extreme cooling. 

Con's

People will still argue what is classed as sponsored vs not, so this needs to be very clearly defined. 

Noobs may be overwhelmed at first with could put them off. 

 

6 league

Pro

Noobs don't have to compete with extreme or people who have been on for years 

People who don't have access to extreme cooling can compete in a league with similar levels of cooling. 

 

Cons

The is no incentive to go up a league, some people will get to the top of enthusiast or apprentice and not want to use better cooling because in there mind they are top and they would go down. Its like being king of the slums vs being the average Joe in the business area. 

It is also harder to explain and manage. 

Creates issues of proof of cooling etc. 

 

 

I personally think 3 will be best. 

Basically 2 league system with a rookie league that they are in for 6 months then automatically move out of. This solves the problem of the noobs feeling like the have been thrown in the deep end and there is just a set time period to move leagues, so nobody can argue about it and they is no questions of proving when someone joined as its in the database and run automatically. 

Edited by Jumper118
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Why should I bother to compete if there is no "Apprentice" league?  It's even worse for enthusiasts who use no active cooling.  In my opinion,  mixing the cooling techniques into one league does not force enthusiasts and apprentices to upgrade to LN2, it forces us out of competition.

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10 minutes ago, jab383 said:

Why should I bother to compete if there is no "Apprentice" league?  It's even worse for enthusiasts who use no active cooling.  In my opinion,  mixing the cooling techniques into one league does not force enthusiasts and apprentices to upgrade to LN2, it forces us out of competition.

When I used my SS for the first time I was put in extreme, competing against LN2 etc, obviously I had no chance, but I was still improving my own ranking.

Your points won't change, just everyone will be ranked together (excluding elite).

Depends how much people care about being #1 in Enthusiast/Apprentice etc, rather than just being compared to everyone, and which matters more, rank or number of points.

Edited by GeorgeStorm

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I can understand the desire to have an apprentice league as pretty sure that nobody cheats their cooling in that category however they're unable to fully compete with ln2 results, however I'd say that's just part of the competition. Sure your ranking will go down, but that happens every rev no matter what league you're in.

As for enthusiast league I'm gonna put this bluntly, which will probably piss a lot of people off. With how hard it is to verify cooling this should be renamed to ice bucket challenge league or just rolled into apprentice league.

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4 hours ago, Jumper118 said:

I personally think 3 will be best. 

Basically 2 league system with a rookie league that they are in for 6 months then automatically move out of. This solves the problem of the noobs feeling like the have been thrown in the deep end and there is just a set time period to move leagues, so nobody can argue about it and they is no questions of proving when someone joined as its in the database and run automatically.

Yeah, sponsored / non sponsored / rookie seems like a very good solution. Newcomers are not overwhelmed, no burden of proof on cooling.

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6 hours ago, Jumper118 said:

People will still argue what is classed as sponsored vs not, so this needs to be very clearly defined. 

Noobs may be overwhelmed at first with could put them off. 

I think the old definition was something like, if you get a free PSU as a prize - definitely not Elite
if PSU is sent to you because you're an overclocker/modder but as a one-off - not Elite

A PSU manufacturer sends you a new PSU once a year, and pays your LN2 bill? - Elite
Gigabyte sends me an ES board, and may do so in the future and I use that for my ranking? - Definitely Elite

Though here's a good one - Gigabyte sends me an ES board, and I put it up for a prize in a local competition, its previous gen (lets say Z270), and the winner then uses it to improve their ranking. My argument is that this is not Elite. But what if hypothetically it was a current gen board (say Z390) - Gigabyte didnt send this user the board, and they also would not have an expectation of future support - Elite or nah?

 

Noobs are always put off, the ones who stick around are the ones we want.

 

I also reckon we should have the option for Elite level users to return to XOC or Enthusiast leagues if they are no longer sponsored, but perhaps this should be done as a request through mods, who would ask them what they were getting and confirm they are no longer getting before flipping them back.

 

 

 

Just thought Id put in the definition as per the FAQ that is currently on Hwbot. 

Question: When do you qualify as Pro and have to switch to that league?

Answer: Currently, there is no clear outlining on who’s considered pro and who isn’t. Or even who should go into that separate league and who shouldn’t. Currently, I’m moving those people who work almost exclusively with sponsored hardware and only for pure marketing-related overclocking to that league as that’s what it was designed for. This is for instance KP, Hicookie or Elmor. I think for the first couple of weeks we’ll see who wants to join and how the flow works exactly (many or little overclockers making the jump, etc …). Except for the group mentioned earlier, we don’t intend to force people in either league.

When discussing the design for the first time, we also got the question what to do with review samples. That is quite simple: we have no interest in either tracking all review samples or vetoing against sending a specific person specific hardware. What we asked vendors is to honor the Pro OC league by focussing the marketing-overclocking events (eg: sending super-binned hardware) as much as possible in that league and leave the hobbyist rankings as they are. We also explicitly said that there’s no problem with sending anyone a mainboard or a vga card. In your particular situation, this all boils down to: we do not have the slightest problem with you getting any samples or you choosing for the normal oc’er ranking. If you feel Pro and want to join, okay. If you feel Pro is a bit out of your reach at the moment, feel free to compete at the top of the non-pro ranking.

Edited by zeropluszero
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6 hours ago, jab383 said:

Why should I bother to compete if there is no "Apprentice" league?  It's even worse for enthusiasts who use no active cooling.  In my opinion,  mixing the cooling techniques into one league does not force enthusiasts and apprentices to upgrade to LN2, it forces us out of competition.

Not everyone can get a medal, some have to be losers. Unless there is a law in your country saying you cant buy dice or ln2 then you are choosing to be slow. Its as simple as that. Its like turning up to and f1 race and saying, look guys i am only going to run 4cyl even though you are running v8, you should make my own special class so i can be a winner too. Why dont we just have a separate league for everyone, then we can all be 1st :P   

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The option to return from elite to xtreme league or whatever always existed, if you sent a pm to staff and said you are inactive or not sponsored anymore we checked and changed if it was plausible

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2 hours ago, richba5tard said:

Yeah, sponsored / non sponsored / rookie seems like a very good solution. Newcomers are not overwhelmed, no burden of proof on cooling.

I could get behind this as well. 6months at Rookie then in with the rest of em.

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2 hours ago, richba5tard said:

Yeah, sponsored / non sponsored / rookie seems like a very good solution. Newcomers are not overwhelmed, no burden of proof on cooling.

I like this idea, I imagine it'll be painful for some at the start but overall I think it's a good move.

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Two leagues plus rookie league looks great, imo is the best way for the future of Hwbot.

Edited by Casanova
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While I do like the idea of three leagues total, my biggest question is this:

What kind of actual impact would this have on database load, since that is what originally spurred the whole push towards rev8?

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I can see us losing a lot of people if it is made into 2 or 3 leagues, of course XOC people will disagree but you are a minority I am not knocking anyone but some people simply cannot afford LN2 or circumstances dictate they can't use it. 

People in other categories signed up for that and move on as they learn or desire to go to other cooling methods, these people are the backbone of HWBOT Elite and XOC are the minority but XOC members  frequent this forum a lot more percentage than the lower leagues most won't even know this is taking place.

I sit on the fence with this at this time I'm using cold water but have intentions of using better cooling in which case it would put me into another league anyway, what I would say is before alienating the majority of members send them an email to vote or to come over and have a look.

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2 hours ago, unityofsaints said:

We need more than two options. Sometimes the right answer lies in between apathy and radical change...

that i agree with

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to me, sponsored go in their own, different altogehter

ln2, dice, ss, phase change go to extreme,

air and ambient water stay on their own

chilled water, im hung on that, not sure whats fair to all on chilled or ice water where it should go,   like what i use the best ive ever got is -5c no load, that soon goes to +15-20c +under load depending on the bench and volts, especially with an ambient of around 12 c outside , 18 inside in winter, 30c + in summer, so my system wont compare to those in colder countries where the ambient outside is - 3-5  or whatever, and they put something out the window  , radiator, hoses , whatever, so where does it end , the cooling thing is a big issue, but "cant" be proven

lets not forget where "WE' all started in this game, air, then water then chilled or dice then ln2, so scrapping the lesser over the latter i think is a big mistake, never forget your origins , money has to be considered for people, what they can and cant afford

i know this , you just cant have sponsored and other, whats the other ??? LN2, SS, DICE, PHASE, AIR , WATER, CHILLED WATER and everything else thrown into it 1??? if it is hows that gunna work, it wont, the lesser of the cooling benchers might as well go light a fire and throw all theyve got on it with their time money and effort as well for dessert

this change youre thinking about has to be very well thought out before implemented coz if you dont and  it isnt,  youll have a big shitfight in here, by many. ill guarantee you that 

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Always so much in the offense, ozzie. Chill down or you will get a perm ban.

For me the suggestion with 3 leagues is best, with 4 would also be ok (non sponsored split into extreme / not extreme cooling) but there is no way to verify the actual cooling used. Hence this will be always a cause of discussion and heated arguments.

Regarding the load / code complexity on the server: for each submission we need to check the cooling used, the current users league, and see whether they should move or not. If so, a total recalc is required for this user. It's not problematic but the more I can throw away, the less I have to maintain, the less bugs there will be.

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chill down ? im not even overheated, i wasnt offensive at all, ive stated how i feel what i think about it, thats what was asked, and people have put their opinions up as i did,

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Current leagues lead to a lot of meta-benching.  Ambient benchers who are enthusiastic to try better cooling shy away from ice, chillers and (if they're honest ones) putting rads outside because they don't wanna bench against dice.  Apprentice benchers shy away from trying LN2, or at least from posting the scores they get, because they don't wanna bench against people who own dewars and get regular LN2 deliveries.  If the leagues are brought together I think we'd see more creative cooling, that has to be good.

One thing, if the leagues are all merged might need to reset the achievements for league position.

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I think most of them will sell the hardware. I just bought a ss because i thought i will be staying in apprentice and not a cascade to compete with ln2 users.

Why not 3 leagues ,air/water , aprrentice and extreme with sponsored and not sponsored together,Why sponsored need separate league ? (You make this split for max 50 people) If you want to push your hardware to extreme ln2 cooling than you afford to compete with the top guys which get sponsored for this,prove your worth and you will be one of them,this is not my target nor to almost the whole database besides the less than 1000 people which do ln2.

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simple suzuki,

because sponsored get the best of the best binned hardware/s being boards, cpus, ram, gpus, pots etc,  given to them by the sponsor, manufacturer, what ever you want to call them, now how is the general bencher going to beat that from a retail outlet they buy from??, answer is they dont and  wont !!!

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