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CPU benchmarks applicable for global points - 2019

Which CPU benchmarks should get global points?  

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  1. 1. Which CPU benchmarks should still get global points in 2019?



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I just imagine it, what would happen if you put 600A+ through that small poor 7980XE? Even your wire if its not good enough can burn, with that much current flow through small cpu pcb & million transistor in it imagine it what would happen, if it doesnt happen on ryzen then it can be intel cpu consuming so much power to do that, and im aware you know about this. It just doesnt make sense to drop global on X265 if it doesnt even kill amd cpu.

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7 hours ago, Mr.Scott said:

Doesn't make a dam bit of difference. I know what my limits are. I don't like to kill any hardware.......especially for nothing tangible, like boints.

nobody likes to kill hw, just curious how do we find the limit if everything is running fine until the day after :D 

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Think maybe the newer hardware is just more fragile? 

Could be any one of a few reasons. I'm not so quick to blame the benchmark. Just my opinion is all.

 

Edited by Mr.Scott
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11 hours ago, speed.fastest said:

I just imagine it, what would happen if you put 600A+ through that small poor 7980XE? Even your wire if its not good enough can burn, with that much current flow through small cpu pcb & million transistor in it imagine it what would happen, if it doesnt happen on ryzen then it can be intel cpu consuming so much power to do that, and im aware you know about this. It just doesnt make sense to drop global on X265 if it doesnt even kill amd cpu.

You are right no problem with my Ryzen cpus running x265 4k , one thing in common is the cpus that this benchmark killed are all Intel cpus , still i would not run this benchmark again as a personal choice. Mr. Scott is right about this new intel cpus are fragile and care should be given and warning about running x265 4k just for the sake of saving hardware.

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26 minutes ago, Mr.Scott said:

Think maybe the newer hardware is just more fragile? 

Could be any one of a few reasons. I'm not so quick to blame the benchmark. Just my opinion is all.

 

I'd agree, if people want their hw to survive a heavy load they have to use a lower voltage. Already it's known that you don't run the same voltage for r15, x265, xtu etc as you would use for 32m or cpuz valid so perhaps we need to just use yet another offset from r15 for x265/xtu/whycruncher. The only thing is that it'll be really tempting to push the voltage just a bit harder for that max score since it won't die immediately like it would with something entirely stupid for other benches (eg 3v cpuz valid) so you'll be able to get a score.

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Well here is the difference, you dont run 1.9v for R15 on a 9900k because it fails from the heat not because voltage isn't scaling...

What happens in x265 is it scales normally like any other threaded bench (r15, geek) then you are greeted with a paperweight the next day.

There arent enough people benching ryzen competitively on ln2 to make that call IMO

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12 minutes ago, Splave said:

There arent enough people benching ryzen competitively on ln2 to make that call IMO

As far as I can tell what's causing the damage in X265 is the extreme power draw from AVX load on intel cpus. While it is weird that it doesn't kill it right away there's basically no other reason that this bench would kill a cpu. My guess is that the reason it's so much more harmful on intel cpus than amd cpus goes back to why there's varying AVX performance. The AVX units on an intel cpu are significantly bigger than on ryzen which is why they perform so much better. This also means that the avx power draw on ryzen is significantly below that on intel, especially when intel is using avx512. So I think it's not inconceivable to say that ryzen doesn't have the issue of dying the next day because the current draw isn't high enough to cause damage to the cpu.

By the by, would you be able to run x265 on your 2990wx for Country Cup 😁

Edited by yosarianilives
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Btw - you can disable AVX in the benchmark itself via the CPU features override menu. It should be less power hungry, although the performance hit is too big to make it practical.

AVX disabled - running only SSE 4.2

x265_sse4.thumb.png.91e63b23df38947a1c863f18d2dc11e6.png

Default - AVX2

x265_avx2.thumb.png.0c6b32a3e3f560b467dc673dbf1bc1e6.png

Also in my case the CPU power didn't change that much which is in agreement with what I said earlier. But maybe my particular 8700k is to blame here... as it is the crappiest piece ever made and it is extremely power hungry everywhere - so it is possible it is not representative. Btw - this is default clock, undervolted, delid with liquid metal, and it is still 150W pig.

 

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I don't think this is AVX now, ivy bridge AVX is really light and doesn't really matter for this bench but Luumi apparently had his 3770k die in the exact same manner as everyone else's chips. Which points towards it being something else that's causing chip death in this bench, especially when AMD chips anecdotally seem to be immune. Also it sounds like the voltage to cause death varies by chip by a wide margin and is semi-random. I think this warrants further investigation as it may not be as simple as "run lower voltage than normal" and there could be something else going on here that's causing damage in this bench.

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2 hours ago, Splave said:

Well here is the difference, you dont run 1.9v for R15 on a 9900k because it fails from the heat not because voltage isn't scaling...

What happens in x265 is it scales normally like any other threaded bench (r15, geek) then you are greeted with a paperweight the next day.

There arent enough people benching ryzen competitively on ln2 to make that call IMO

You can ask Indonesian for this, because we have AMD Rock Tour 2017 & 2018, possibly 2019 too. But you can try yourself as you still have 2990WX probably.

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4 minutes ago, speed.fastest said:

Probably add X265 non AVX version for Global Point for this? Or better give feedback to Intel if someone can do it.

It may not be as simple as this as per my comment above.

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Even without AVX it is still one of the most CPU intensive benchmarks here on HWBOT.

If there is there is a pool in the future and most people would be in favor of non-AVX 4k (or 1080p too?) preset, then of course I can make modified version that will use this option as default. It would be hard to enforce with current version as I believe most people are not familiar with the CPU features override function.

Interesting fact - originally it was meant to be used on locked Skylake chips that had very slow AVX when overclocked. So with high enough OC they could be faster without AVX than 103 MHz BCLK with fast AVX.

Edit: I also added warning about this problem to x265 description on my website. http://hw-museum.cz/article/1/hwbot-x265-benchmark/1

Noone mentioned any dead AMD CPUs  or Intel CPUs when using air or water cooling. Is that correct?

Edited by havli

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hahahaha, wow, didn't realise how immature some people can be.  You kill a chip and blame the benchmark for putting it under load?  Seriously?  Can I get pifast demoted if I kill a modern CPU by giving it 3V to the core?

Competitive OC has to have some tenuous relevance to normal people, that means real-world benchmarks that actually use the capabilities of modern hardware, not the same x87 crap from 1995.  So you have to change your voltage and maxmem settings, boo hoo.  Benchmarks don't kill chips, voltage kills chips.  You should all be thanking havli for making a proper modern benchmark with visual feedback and scalability with overkill to extreme core counts that can still be run on stuff right back to Coppermine, not insisting that because you can't bench it safely it's not a good benchmark.

BTW there's no point in a non-AVX version.  It'd just be pandering to the kind of people who are never happy anyway.  Just let them entertain themselves with their meaningless zero-load frequency validations (which there is a place for, but other competitive OC has no obligation to emulate them).

Oh, while I'm at it, ycruncher should get points as well.  Needs revising for offline data file saving without TAGG's workaround and I guess its own JRE/libraries like x265 has so it's not a PITA to set up, but ultimately it's a good, meaningful bench that showcases a different aspect of performance (very high memory size requirement) while again still working on very old hardware unlike CB15.

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I think people's complaint isn't that it's a chip killer so much that you can't tell what voltage it kills the chip because it's seemingly random and you won't know until the next day when the cpu no longer works.

19 minutes ago, mickulty said:

BTW there's no point in a non-AVX version.  It'd just be pandering to the kind of people who are never happy anyway.  Just let them entertain themselves with their meaningless zero-load frequency validations (which there is a place for, but other competitive OC has no obligation to emulate them).

This is especially true when it's likely not even the AVX that's causing chip death. Ivy doesn't have avx2 yet luumi had his 3770k die in the exact same way as modern intel cpus are dying where it worked fine until the next day. I think that it's an issue with something else in how intel handles the instructions used by this encoder as anecdotally AMD cpus are not affected.

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42 minutes ago, yosarianilives said:

I think people's complaint isn't that it's a chip killer so much that you can't tell what voltage it kills the chip because it's seemingly random and you won't know until the next day when the cpu no longer works.

That's an Intel issue, you can't magically do that with software.  Someone doesn't want to deal with that, they gonna call for a ban on Intel CPUs?

Not knowing a voltage is killer until it kills is the same on anything.  I know it's galling to think you got away with it and turn out to be wrong but look at it this way, at least they got the run first 🤣

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59 minutes ago, mickulty said:

hahahaha, wow, didn't realise how immature some people can be.  You kill a chip and blame the benchmark for putting it under load?  Seriously?  Can I get pifast demoted if I kill a modern CPU by giving it 3V to the core?

Competitive OC has to have some tenuous relevance to normal people, that means real-world benchmarks that actually use the capabilities of modern hardware, not the same x87 crap from 1995.  So you have to change your voltage and maxmem settings, boo hoo.  Benchmarks don't kill chips, voltage kills chips.  You should all be thanking havli for making a proper modern benchmark with visual feedback and scalability with overkill to extreme core counts that can still be run on stuff right back to Coppermine, not insisting that because you can't bench it safely it's not a good benchmark.

BTW there's no point in a non-AVX version.  It'd just be pandering to the kind of people who are never happy anyway.  Just let them entertain themselves with their meaningless zero-load frequency validations (which there is a place for, but other competitive OC has no obligation to emulate them).

Oh, while I'm at it, ycruncher should get points as well.  Needs revising for offline data file saving without TAGG's workaround and I guess its own JRE/libraries like x265 has so it's not a PITA to set up, but ultimately it's a good, meaningful bench that showcases a different aspect of performance (very high memory size requirement) while again still working on very old hardware unlike CB15.

I think you're being daft on purpose. 

As havli has stated x265 is no harder than R15 apparently. So how come I can loop r15 for a week at 1.7v and then run x265 twice at 1.7v and have a dead chip the next day? So do benchmarks kill chips or does voltage kill chips if voltage is a constant ;)  Do you think 1.7v at -192c is a lot if people are running 1.45-1.5 on water cooling? This is not being stupid with voltage and careless with cpu's such as you suggest with a 3v pifast. This is some strange bug with intel CPUs which maybe can be solved by being open. 

This is a thread discussing CPU benchmarks to get global points in 2019 and we are all bringing our experiences here. Whats the problem with that? 

Havli is responding well and offering solutions. This is how collaboration works. I like x265 when its not killing cpus. It takes some tweaks etc scales with memory etc....

 

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1 minute ago, mickulty said:

That's an Intel issue, you can't magically do that with software.  Someone doesn't want to deal with that, they gonna call for a ban on Intel CPUs?

I think you may be on to something here. This is probably gonna need to be tested more thoroughly tbh if we want to get to the bottom of why it's killing cpus.

Anyone want to send me a tray of 9900k's? :P 

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No XTU, XTU not good for anything!

no X265, I like this bench but I have to push the volts, my poor 4770k degraded quick :(  will not do the same to other CPU's under Ln2.

AVX ROCKS!  moor power and volts....

Anyone want to send me a tray of 9900k's?  a TRAY?  LOOOL I'm lucky if I get one....

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38 minutes ago, Splave said:

So do benchmarks kill chips or does voltage kill chips if voltage is a constant ;) 

Technically, as I'm sure you know, current kills CPUs.  Current scales with voltage.  Less voltage = less current = alive chip.

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12 minutes ago, mickulty said:

Technically, as I'm sure you know, current kills CPUs.  Current scales with voltage.  Less voltage = less current = alive chip.

Coming from someone never ran Ln2.....👅   lol

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14 minutes ago, techjesse said:

Coming from someone never ran Ln2.....👅   lol

Yeah, and also someone who's studied electrical engineering for a couple of years at university level, though V=IR is more a high school thing.

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13 minutes ago, mickulty said:

Yeah, and also someone who's studied electrical engineering for a couple of years at university level, though V=IR is more a high school thing.

Well, somebody give that boy a gold cup.......lol

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Well, it is not easy to determine how hard benchmark is. Perhaps I got a little caried away with that statement of R15 and x265 - it seems to be that way on my daily rig, which is bad piece of 8700k. Generally running AVX2 is considered more power demanding but it can be different with each piece of silicon. With mine it can be 10% (as shown above), with yours can be more. Btw - I just did R15 run and it showed 140W... So 140W R15, 145W X265-AVX, 135W X265-nonAVX. So I was't very far off... but probably can't generalize it.

Now, I'm sorry, physics and math wasn't my field of study, :$ but let me try to explain why I think this is power consumtion or voltage issue. Semiconductor resistivity drops as temperature rise (unlike normal conductors which are exactly the opposite). So this could create kind of a death spiral. Let's take this model situation:

You are running idle, in desktop. Now you start the benchmark (doesn't really matter which one in this example). CPU is fully loaded and temperature rises instantly by few dozen degrees. How much depends on thermal paste mostly.  Now thermal capacity of the cooling solution comes to the scene. It is cold at first but slowly starts to heat up. As the cooler heats up, the CPU does too, internal resistivity drops, current increases. Voltage remains the same because hiend OC boards have very strong VRM which can hold the increased current easily. So current increases, temperature increases, power and heat output of the CPU increases..... and this the start of the death spiral. I can't really tell how fast and strong is it but definitely this effect is real and measurable.

Most cooling solutions are getting more effective as delta t (the difference between heatsink temperature and the cooling medium temperature) rises. So at some point there will be balance between cooler and CPU. The cooling capability will become strong enough to stop the spiral of increasing temperature / current / heat output... and from this moment the temperature will remain the same.

LN2 cooling no doubt is very powerfull but its cooling capability is not infinite. The bigger and heavier LN2 pot you have, the bigger thermal capacity it has. Because of that it will hold the CPU cool for short time because it can absorb the heat. With short benchmarks the block of copper will cover for the few secons long power increase. This is the case of R15. You can run it repeatedly of course but I bet there is always a short break in which pot cools down again and your system is ready for next run. It works like a thermal capacitor.

In case of long x265 4k run, thermal capacity of the pot is depleted after a while, and then it will heat up up to the point of balance when boiling LN2 will become strong enough to stop it from getting warmer. Current and temperature rises all the time until the point of balance is reached.

Also we shouldn't forget about thermal conductivity of the silicon itself, then thermal paste, then IHS and another layer of thermal paste. More heat the silicon generates, the harder it gets to dissipate it in the LN2 pot (no matter how strong it is) because thermal paste may not be able to conduct the heat well enough. And when you can't  get the heat away, then temperature of CPU is rising, current is rising, only this time nothing will stop it... until your system crash.

----------------

I hope you can understand my thoughts. It is difficult to explain when english isn't my native language and my field is IT, not physics.

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