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Is overclocking DEAD or dying?

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but for me, the overclock will die soon enough, as more and more stones and restrictions are imposed by manufacturers. In addition, for normal results, selected components are required. Which price is space. As for attracting users, we must actively work with vendors. But I think the vendors are no longer interested. Since components for acceleration take 3.5 cripples. Serve everyone rgb now and that would be more. Even on such mothers as apex, gene there is RBG, although for me it did not give up there at all.

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17 hours ago, zeropluszero said:

 

 

 

Here it is boys.

You keep coming back tho 😉

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8 hours ago, TASOS said:

FREE performance !!!

What happened next ?

Today's performance gain from O/C is minimal and the regular user can have it with the push of a button ... so why bother ?

Jumpers & dip switches are fun. Collected very nice super sevens. 1998 a time when you could run different processor brands in a single motherboard.

Then Amd & Intel secretly developed slot processors. Favorite processor for me e6600. Those things are fun, fsb & multi's

________

Are we at the crossroads? A road we traveled on challenging. Another road we take is made easy for us.

Auto OC in the bios of late is too easy. 5Ghz for the average Joe. Yes push of a button & SUCKY bin processor is bolstered volts up. :/ Sigh

 

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in the last hour, 10 new members have joined. have you guys ever checked the new activity feed?

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13 minutes ago, Splave said:

in the last hour, 10 new members have joined. have you guys ever checked the new activity feed?

3e9d2r.jpg

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19 hours ago, der8urner said:

A relly easy way to promote oc more would just be livestreaming. On Instagram you only need an acc and you re reay to go. Same for YT and twitch. Dont know how its on FB. 

Every Time I ll oc something I ll at least make some videos to post them afterwwards on Instagram. And well some people respond and say thats cool but dont know why I am doing it.

We now live in a time where its really easy to get much attention fast. With a litte bit of knowledge of how social media works we could easyly attract more people. We just need a few people per country who would do it. As for example: I follow @Samsarulz on instagram and i think he recently got streaming equipment. 

 

Thanks, althought I'm doing streamings on Youtube with spanish language :D. Had to start doing streams in Chile because most people dont understand how does OC work . Also is more fun to tag along a live session rather than show only the results. Is a bit mesy when you do in the beginning, later you get used to it. @unityofsaints helped me with setup.

Regards

pd: This is my youtube channel OCX.Chile

ps2: Dont mean to do spam.

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12 hours ago, bigblock990 said:

3e9d2r.jpg

Yeah some of the names are weird. This guy was real though ... more on that helping a brother up. We can all do it 

 

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I learned to overclock in the 2000's because I wasn't into PC's enough to drop a lot money into a rig so just used old cheap ones instead.  In 2010 when I finally decided to build one from scratch overclocking performance was paramount importance because I was skint due to the recession.  I built an Athlon II x2 on a mid range mobo with a poverty spec HD 4550 GPU and upgraded from there to the i7 8700K setup I've owned for 18 months+.

I discovered HwBot while reading online magazine The Overclocker in 2013 when I was recovering from a hernia operation and thinking about upgrading my AMD FX system.  It gave life to my old parts for benching but I didn't buy anything purely for that purpose.  Then in the winter of 15 - 16 I bought a big noctua air cooler and started benching my older parts outside in my transit, I also bought a few CPU's for my AMD boards too and started to have more fun.  I rarely bench in summer but when Ryzen came out in 17 I was desperate to upgrade my Haswell setup.  It was such a disappointment and the 8 core actually performed worst in gaming scenarios on a ROG board than my i5 so I got Kaby Lake with unlocked i7 & i3's instead and began buying old GPU's to get more serious.

Around this time I went to my first bench meet and was helped out a lot by Jumper & Gavbon, I also met a good lad called Lee who lent me his LN2 pot (which I bought) and George Storm & Dragon Soup where there too.  Going for a world record speed on my old Sabertooth board with my trusty old FX 6300 was the high point of my benching career.

I made my own chiller's but have not really benched properly on LN2 since and don't really see enough pleasure in doing it on my own.  I've been out of overclocking for 18 months but am interested in doing a bit again.  I think when the league suddenly changed and I lost loads of points and position it killed it for me.  However the rank for the year as well as overall career rank peaks my interest as I think I can do ok with what I have.  There are no overclockers that I know of down here near Cambridge but if there were meets going on I would get a buzz out of trying to hit record benches on LN2 again.  I love the FX platform for OC and have the ROG formula and an 8370 to play with.  I'd also love watching other people going for the top with their kit and helping them if possible.  

I don't think it matters what platform you are using if you are having fun and in a group together you can get some knowledge and experience of all of them.  A lot is to do with setting up and tweaking the OS as well as the hardware so there's lots to teach each other.

I think the benchmarks used are part of what puts gamer's off.  They want to know how many FPS they will get in a certain game with certain hardware OC'd.  I have spent time setting hardware up to run specific games well all the time rather than just pure flat out OC's.  I can get machines to play games well that are known for performing poorly and on the occasions I could be bothered to video it got loads of views and questions.  I'd also set the OC parameters that are attainable for a user with cheaper hardware & cooling so that it was useful for everyone.  Just an idea but maybe show casing popular games like PUBG (might not be popular now) that require a lot of juice with lower end hardware might get people involved.  I can actually game for quite a while with no problems overclocked using my ghetto chiller setup.  I can get my GPU to run fairly cool and quiet by optimising the fans etc.  Non overclockers are as I once was after maximum performance for minimum spend and hassle.  If we can't find a way to integrate that into HwBot then like Mr Scott says it will end up on the forums and YouTube with wannabe overclockers giving bad advice causing people to over overvolt and burn out their hardware.  Which is a shame when there is so much knowledge & talent right here.

It certainly looks like there is a lot less going on than there was 18 months ago before I went away.

 

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More so based on my time doing this the advent of the K series was a big determent to the hobby but recently started playing with locked Xeons as will as Bclk limited which makes it more about efficiency and in reality to me has kind of started me to rethink things.

As an example a i5 4670 has a total of 4215 subs most of the first places are cold that I looked at except CB15, two AIO scores over cold but only 21 subs. As XTU is/was popular and has a total of 522 subs would say it was worth some pretty good points when they were still available. The 21 subs was the most for any other bench I looked at, WHY.

If half those testing their skill with XTU would of ran the other benches just think of the points that would be available. With the added bonus that cold can't score so high that anyone below their scores has 0.2 pts. Given a good draw from the hardware deck there is a good chance the existing cold scores can be beaten with ambient cooling. In reality this is about as close as it gets to an even playing field.

If you look at the popularity of XTU is benching dying I'd say no there is still a desire to test abilities against others, if the whole picture is taken into account it becomes a mixed bag.

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having joined Hwbot in 2014 i never even saw the "golden years" of OC thus the time before the Intel K processors. And yes the average joe now can get to 5G quite easily. Even so with help of profiles made by select users of HWbot. But then even with reaching 5G Oc and even if it was 50% more than regular clockspeed the score on Hwbot will still be 0.1 points. So if the average joe just did that across the CPU benchers he would amass the staggering amount of 2 points. Yet he has actually still overclocked the CPU quite some atleast for a beginner. it would probably have taken him some time as setting the XMP auto would probably have crashed the system more than the CPU oc if he invested in some higher speed ones. Meanwhile the system would surely not be optimized at that stage.

Overall i like the point system except we should probably add a 0 more on the scores. to spend maybe 1 or 2 weeks going through all benchers on starting level and reach maybe 2 points is  probably a not so good incentive to keep OC-ing for someone just testing it out.

Meanwhile it seems that the competition scoring works better in that regard. I like the challenge and keep checking if the guys are catching me during a competition then i get back into it to see what did they do better. I already know the super good guys will be subbing 5 minutes before the competition closes to take all the big  points and leave me with less learning in the process of what they did. As long as all who takes part in the competition get points for the yearly score thats fine. That also means that the guys why would otherwise be looking at their normal 2 point never grow atleast get some more in competition to trigger more interest.

When I started OC was just looking how to optimize my new build at the time.  I was over at overclocker.net and some guys were competing in the forum on unigine valley all using the GTX 780 and we just posted the screen shots of the scores and tried to get a better one. Think i did that for a week before i found HWbot. So far i think this year has been the most interesting as i like the concept of starting from 0 while also having an overall career score. I also think that concept can generate more interest (except maybe not son on 0.1 pointers)

this is a long way to say no OC is surely not dead nor dying.and maybe now with AMD closing in Intel will have the incentive to open up more processors to OC. Meanwhile the two above points might help to retain some who actually joins in first time.

 

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Any hobby that stands the test of time eventually becomes something larger than a hobby. I.E. every sport in history.

Every sport I can think of has lasted decades. Some are more popular than others, but that's not my point. Every sport I can think of has went through many different changes to the sport itself. Most sports, the rules get changed every year. Or in e-sports case, the game gets updated.

By nature this upsets and pleases people at the same time. 

To me, that is exactly whats happening on hwbot. I'm not sure if there is a way to avoid that. 



 

Edited by jessec0626

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On 10/22/2019 at 2:33 PM, Alex@ro said:

Overclocking is not dead but sort of half-dead. The glory days were few years ago when there many competitions for every category, more interest from vendors, etc.However this interest precisely the material part was misused by a bunch of crooks , the overclocking tv and some bad management and trust that Massman did with these people that led into a total disaster. Short storyz, most of the money that went in from vendors were spent on useless things and crooks. Overclocking TV had a huge chunk on money that they used for their personal interest such as buying equipment for the wonderfull li estreaming where they basically sucked hard in creating and entertaining an audience and also by manipulating statistics and lying to vendors about the number of views which they did not had because...they were so bad at what they were supposed to do. Eventually vendors saw no ROI from this and backed off. The crooks called overclocking tv( which is now rebranded as a different company) even thought to be managers for some top overclockers promising them support from vendors for a commision.

Myself and other top and respected overclockers know this and we will never forgive these crooks for their behaviour and what they did. 

You nailed it Alex, agree 100% with everything you said.

The current state of overclocking is in zombie mode atm, somewhere in between dead and alive. Unsure of what's required to bring back to it's full glory. I think part of it is the newer generation in general prefers to watch things instead of reading, but watching overclocking has never really been fun and even if you're the best overclocker on earth you still have those days where nothing fucking works.

Now imagine doing a livestream and you have one of those session's where you boot up and it's just problem after problem live ota. How does this look to an aspiring overclocker looking to invest lots of time and money into this hobby?

I don't have a solution to the problem just an analysis of what I think the problem might be. As FDR once said “When you come to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on.”

 

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16 hours ago, l0ud_sil3nc3 said:

You nailed it Alex, agree 100% with everything you said.

The current state of overclocking is in zombie mode atm, somewhere in between dead and alive. Unsure of what's required to bring back to it's full glory. I think part of it is the newer generation in general prefers to watch things instead of reading, but watching overclocking has never really been fun and even if you're the best overclocker on earth you still have those days where nothing fucking works.

Now imagine doing a livestream and you have one of those session's where you boot up and it's just problem after problem live ota. How does this look to an aspiring overclocker looking to invest lots of time and money into this hobby?

I don't have a solution to the problem just an analysis of what I think the problem might be. As FDR once said “When you come to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on.”

 

Or, with absolute respect, and a big dose of black humor, tie the rope around your neck and hang up.

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On 10/21/2019 at 10:09 PM, mllrkllr88 said:

It's not dead at all!

I have had multiple success stories. I was a noob bencher having done DICE a few times when a few guys from OCN, pulled me aside and asked if I wanted to be part the Skype benching community. With a lot of encouragement and also some very helpful info I started to bench almost every weekend. I learned how hwbot works and started gaining points. After a few years I had made it to #1 in apprentice by running tons of dry ice and learning how to mod GPU's. Once I made it to #1 in apprentice I became stagnate and had difficulties gaining points with dry ice. Due to financial reasons, LN2 was not an option.

@Splave took notice of what I was doing with DICE and GPU modding  by my posts on Facebook. He generously offered to help me out by sending me a box with 30+ old GPU's that he didn't want. Furthermore, he offered to help me make the transition to LN2 and gave me a 50L dewar for the price of shipping. Splave's help didn't stop there, he continued to support my endeavors and teach me the world of LN2 benching. Eventually I ended up getting supported by ASRock for platform hardware. I devoted a few solid years to LN2 benching and pushing myself and the hardware as far as it would go. Splave continues to help and support me to this day...

Throughout the years I have worked hard to give back as much as possible and build up the OCN team. Sharing of information and creating a family-like environment has been critical to OCN's success. We are constantly evolving and working on promoting overclocking though benchmarking competitions such as the Freezer' Burn competitions. Speaking of competitions, I am working with vendors now to get huge prize support for the next competition, which will happen at the end of this year.

I see some limitations at Hwbot, but no, overclocking is not dead, it just looks a little different now that it has in the past.

I have been friends with miller for a few years now and the help he has given me is unbelievable, every bit of card modding I have done has been via the help of David, this guy deserves a medal, my memory (brain) is shot I'm at the stage even if I write notes then I forget where I've put them. Poor Miller helps me over and over to grasp how to mod. 

People like Splave and Miller are the backbone of this community.

Thanks for all you help. 

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Overclocking isn't dying. There are more overclocking streamers than ever and more mention of LN2 overclocking on the big tech Youtube channels than ever. Just look at the 9900KS - it's a reaction to everyone chasing every last frame. True. Celeron 300A overclocked to 1 GHz won't happen anymore, the manufacturers have wizened up to that and it's leaving too much $$ on the table. Overall I think some people on here have rose tinted glasses on but that's fine, we all do that 🙂

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Overclocking is most certainly a dead and dying sport.

Compared to what it used to be to what it is now its already dead.

Necessity is the mother of all inventions. Overclocking was invented due to necessity. Most did it to get acceptable frame rates on sub acceptable hardware that did not break the bank.

It's no longer a necessity and nowadays on at least AMD its more like subsystem tuning more than anything else. The day manufacturers were able to achieve what we can not ( variable on the fly clocks and voltages ) is the day that we as overclockers became obsolete.

To think that ln2 overclocking is the driving force or going to save this sport is absurd. AVG joe gamer and AVG joe consumer is what keeps the flow of cash flowing for the manufacturers. I can't count how many times I have seen avg joe comment on how they could give 2 !@#$'s less about what X manufacturers board did on ln2 because he runs on air/aio water like the other 95% of the world.

Lets face it avg joe has wisened up and the manufacturers are aware of this. When ln2 overclocking/marketing is no longer marketable it will simply no longer be of use to them.

EDIT: One other thing to note..... The majority of AMD overclockers are not even overclockers anymore. They use someones tool to spit out settings then another tool to spit out an attainable frequency. Take the tools away and the majority would not know how to set there own damn timings other than primaries. The reason is simple they don't understand the how and the why and the relationship between timings they only care about the end result and the quickest easiest way to get there.

Truth hurts but its the truth.

Edited by chew*
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3 hours ago, chew* said:

Overclocking is most certainly a dead and dying sport.

Compared to what it used to be to what it is now its already dead.

Necessity is the mother of all inventions. Overclocking was invented due to necessity. Most did it to get acceptable frame rates on sub acceptable hardware that did not break the bank.

It's no longer a necessity and nowadays on at least AMD its more like subsystem tuning more than anything else. The day manufacturers were able to achieve what we can not ( variable on the fly clocks and voltages ) is the day that we as overclockers became obsolete.

To think that ln2 overclocking is the driving force or going to save this sport is absurd. AVG joe gamer and AVG joe consumer is what keeps the flow of cash flowing for the manufacturers. I can't count how many times I have seen avg joe comment on how they could give 2 !@#$'s less about what X manufacturers board did on ln2 because he runs on air/aio water like the other 95% of the world.

Lets face it avg joe has wisened up and the manufacturers are aware of this. When ln2 overclocking/marketing is no longer marketable it will simply no longer be of use to them.

EDIT: One other thing to note..... The majority of AMD overclockers are not even overclockers anymore. They use someones tool to spit out settings then another tool to spit out an attainable frequency. Take the tools away and the majority would not know how to set there own damn timings other than primaries. The reason is simple they don't understand the how and the why and the relationship between timings they only care about the end result and the quickest easiest way to get there.

Truth hurts but its the truth.

You sir, hit the head of the nail.

May I add to your writing -

Give people food to eat all day, without pain and without the HOW TO knowledge.

Preset profiles, preset mem profiles, everything preset.

Now, IF the HW AVG Joe is using can by coincidence work with these preset profiles, all good. If not, then the board is crap or the mems are crap or the cpu or everything.

Recently, I encountered a case, where an extremely sympathetic guy, expressed the intention to use LN2. Ok.

He installed two ram sticks on slot 1 and 3 on a four dimm board and went directly for 4000 / 12-12-12-28-1T ( other timings on AUTO ), HE APPLIED 1.95V and 1.50VccIO

and 1.60VccSA ( on ambient water ).

NOT HIS FAULT. He was told to do so !!!

GOD, felt sorry for the innocent man and did not kill the HW.

What is left from us ( old overclockers that started with Celeron 500A ), and went thru huge 20 meters waves and typhoons to finally understand and apply the acquired

knowledge to overclocking, have been so highly demotivated by the current status.

Start from the basement and climb the ladder a step each time.

No, they want the penthouse IMMEDIATELY.

I am so sorry :( 

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In the past, overclocking was helping to save money. Nowadays you need to pay extra to access overclocking. Simple like that, good old overclocking is dead.

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1 hour ago, Fasttrack said:

You sir, hit the head of the nail.

May I add to your writing -

Give people food to eat all day, without pain and without the HOW TO knowledge.

Preset profiles, preset mem profiles, everything preset.

Now, IF the HW AVG Joe is using can by coincidence work with these preset profiles, all good. If not, then the board is crap or the mems are crap or the cpu or everything.

Recently, I encountered a case, where an extremely sympathetic guy, expressed the intention to use LN2. Ok.

He installed two ram sticks on slot 1 and 3 on a four dimm board and went directly for 4000 / 12-12-12-28-1T ( other timings on AUTO ), HE APPLIED 1.95V and 1.50VccIO

and 1.60VccSA ( on ambient water ).

NOT HIS FAULT. He was told to do so !!!

GOD, felt sorry for the innocent man and did not kill the HW.

What is left from us ( old overclockers that started with Celeron 500A ), and went thru huge 20 meters waves and typhoons to finally understand and apply the acquired

knowledge to overclocking, have been so highly demotivated by the current status.

Start from the basement and climb the ladder a step each time.

No, they want the penthouse IMMEDIATELY.

I am so sorry :( 

Yes bad advice is bad advice. My signature on oc.net says it all (which I no longer frequent due to excessive amount of trolls)

"The problem with the internet today is the lack of accountability.

On pc forums User A says no its safe costs users B,C an D $600 to find out he was wrong. User A gets off scot free.

On the race car forums it is no different except $ amount. User A says turn the boost up to 26lbs. User B,C and D lifted a head gasket,cracked a piston ring, melted a piston...or worse just sent a rod through block due to detonation. $3k in damages. User A gets off scot free.

Avoid the A's they will put a hole in your wallet."

The other problem with overclocking is simple, to compete at the highest levels providing you have the skill requires either A. money (lots of it) or B. selling your soul to manufacturers. C. both

Why do you think after I demonstrated BD on lhe and broke a guiness WR I did not review or endorse it. I'd rather quit then suggest anyone buy something that I myself would not buy. Not to mention the other crap that was going on that I got dragged into with multiple mobo companies.

Edited by chew*
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The problem is that AMD took binning to a different new level. I got to binn some 3600X, 3700X and 3800X. To sum up, 3600X every piece was worser than 3700X which in turn every piece was worser than 3800X. Problem is that after week 1923 ( that week is my good 3800X) even 3800X quality went backwards, i tested more than 10 pieces and they simply suck compared to the earlier one. Amd took the best chiplets for server, then threadripper then desktop, and what we get in regular mainstream is the worst of the worst. I am not saying they are not great cpu's but there is simply no fun since the difference between best and worst is maxxxximum 150 mhz.   

I am not sure about how hard is to be in top of the chain for overclocking  however I know for sure that if you like something you enjoy every piece of it no matter what efforts you make. I cannot count the nights i spent in the cold outside the house in the winter to bench something, how many trips i made for dice in the beggining and then later on i used to drive 400Km to get 50 liters of ln2. And i regret nothing, would do it again probably and that's  because i enjoyed every bit of it.

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7 minutes ago, Alex@ro said:

The problem is that AMD took binning to a different new level. I got to binn some 3600X, 3700X and 3800X. To sum up, 3600X every piece was worser than 3700X which in turn every piece was worser than 3800X. Problem is that after week 1923 ( that week is my good 3800X) even 3800X quality went backwards, i tested more than 10 pieces and they simply suck compared to the earlier one. Amd took the best chiplets for server, then threadripper then desktop, and what we get in regular mainstream is the worst of the worst. I am not saying they are not great cpu's but there is simply no fun since the difference between best and worst is maxxxximum 150 mhz.   

I am not sure about how hard is to be in top of the chain for overclocking  however I know for sure that if you like something you enjoy every piece of it no matter what efforts you make. I cannot count the nights i spent in the cold outside the house in the winter to bench something, how many trips i made for dice in the beggining and then later on i used to drive 400Km to get 50 liters of ln2. And i regret nothing, would do it again probably and that's  because i enjoyed every bit of it.

...and then take the 50l dewar and go up five floors using the stairs at home :)

 

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7 hours ago, Alex@ro said:

The problem is that AMD took binning to a different new level. I got to binn some 3600X, 3700X and 3800X. To sum up, 3600X every piece was worser than 3700X which in turn every piece was worser than 3800X. Problem is that after week 1923 ( that week is my good 3800X) even 3800X quality went backwards, i tested more than 10 pieces and they simply suck compared to the earlier one. Amd took the best chiplets for server, then threadripper then desktop, and what we get in regular mainstream is the worst of the worst. I am not saying they are not great cpu's but there is simply no fun since the difference between best and worst is maxxxximum 150 mhz.   

I am not sure about how hard is to be in top of the chain for overclocking  however I know for sure that if you like something you enjoy every piece of it no matter what efforts you make. I cannot count the nights i spent in the cold outside the house in the winter to bench something, how many trips i made for dice in the beggining and then later on i used to drive 400Km to get 50 liters of ln2. And i regret nothing, would do it again probably and that's  because i enjoyed every bit of it.

AMD laughs at us "retards" using Ryzen 3000, because the real money maker (and the reason Ryzen clocks like absolute dogshit) is Epyc. All the top tier silicon goes to Epyc and not Ryzen/TR.

Nevermind the fact that TSMC is struggling with capacity thanks to normalfags who need a new smartphone every year. Thank you Apple and Huawei.

Edited by Wasmachineman_NL

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5 hours ago, Wasmachineman_NL said:

AMD laughs at us "retards" using Ryzen 3000, because the real money maker (and the reason Ryzen clocks like absolute dogshit) is Epyc. All the top tier silicon goes to Epyc and not Ryzen/TR.

Nevermind the fact that TSMC is struggling with capacity thanks to normalfags who need a new smartphone every year. Thank you Apple and Huawei.

This is nothing new. This has been going on with intel and AMD from the start. It's why some were benching xeons instead of IIRC gulftowns. The difference and why it effects us so much now is that like I said earlier variable on the fly clocks and voltage. When they determined they could deploy this reliably and mission critical stability was not sacrificed it changed the game. The server market has always gotten the best glass from day 1. It was not until they were able to employ variable on the fly clocks and voltages that we were effected by it much however.

Since r1 they are sure to have refined there binning process, i'm sure if there are refinements or a refresh that yields higher clocks it will just open the door to a higher sku not higher ocability of lesser skus at this point in the game.

 

@ alex. Imagine spending 4 weeks on a pre production board with no heatsinks. then imagine you need to make custom mounts just to bolt a cooler to a cpu. then you need to test and debug and review this hardware with shoddy bios support and buggy early silicon and then you get an email demanding to send it all back now today. your wondering wtf you did wrong, did you somehow violate NDA. you send out multiple emails and eventually you find out 2 weeks later after sweating bullets that it had nothing to do with you personally. Some nitwit violated NDA and some nitwit called Lisa Su directly ruffled her feathers and in turn she put out a worldwide recall on every single ES TR chip out in the wild.

That's just one example of the BS that goes on at the top of the chain behind closed doors. Not my idea of fun and exciting and enjoyable. It becomes more of a stressfull job than a fun hobby.

P.S. the nitwits involved were not nobodys, more like high profile big boys that should know better.

Edited by chew*
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Just finished reading over mainly the whole. I'm going to tell how I feel, how my relationship with oc changed if You don't mind. Try to form into some understandable, straight line. 

For me overclocking lives just as than did it earlier ever. There are some better and less shiny periods but thats typical about everything in our life. One mentionable thing is that I gave up doing it on any actual platform. Why ? Because prices reached a barrier where I had to make a decision. Wasnt a hard one anyway. I love spending my free time with ocing, building, discovering these machines so leaving current gens but find still enough playground on any older or cheaper stuffs gives the pleasure for me. Some of You mentioned killing legacy, others that more newcomers needed, more others mentioned maybe need more modern appeareance. I think those appeareances are not much than a clickbait. I know it could be a way to became even more wanted to manufacturers. Its a world like that, cant argue with it but this way surely would bring some new but just as surely killing another one. Community is what we should build I think ! I'm present insome really awesome community or even groups of chat. Very nice, kind people live between us, even legends are ! Most of the newer ocers told one-two-any mentors or simply older ocers who helped and hardly affected about he / she wrote those lines here ! Maybe I'm too old too see the real operation of those new channels but I guess, ocing will hardly get any mentionable person from there but who knows ! I wish I'll be wrong and we will see some sparkling community here soon ! 

I'll be here and I hope most of You also ! ;)

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