Rev3 Up and Running - Complaints, Ideas, Ramblings, Comments ... but no bugs

[SORD]

In the case of AMD PII X3 720BE,there are two sets of points.First is of all X3 or (if 4. core is enabled) of all X4 cpu-s.Second is of all AMD PII X3 720BE.Is the second set (of all AMD PII X3 720 BE) also split into X3 and X4,or they are all in the same category?

[tiborrr]

I care about the users who have only unpopular hardware to bench... they are kind of discriminated as already said. As Alriin already said: For example Lippokratis spent lots time to bench his hardware and in fact it was not easy to get 1k+ Hwpoints. And if you look his scores you will see he usually ocerclocked and did not bench at stock. rev3 is not bad but needs some fixes to get fair and motivating for all of us and not only for the 1337-benchers.

 

I would not say that it was easier in rev2 to grind points. But now benching a 8800 gt u get more points for nearly every score than benching unpopular hw an get 5 medals. Is this fair? I'd say no and it seems like I am not alone with my opinion.

 

I totally agree with you.

[websmile]

I think that Rev3 made very clear that people who made hwbot the most interesting Data source for hardware are not welcome as benchers any more. The message is clear, buy the newest hardware and of course mainstream(looking at the stats even 3870X2, 4890 or 5870 are mainstream for benches) and if you show skill in overclocking for example an older CF duo like X800, X1 oder 2900s, which is harder than benching a 5970 or two 4890, you get no points because most of the people can´t do that and there are a lot of single, but less CF results. For me Bot-time is over, if I only want to see mainstream results I can get them everywhere, and the for the WRs, there is more than enough data to find on ORB or ripping.org.

I can only agree with most of the postings here, I reload most of myx results which I deleted or made pointless, but if it weren´t for my team I would delete my account

[Lippokratis]

What about a combination of rev3 and rev2? For 20 or less results the rev2-Point-System and everything above using the new system.

 

So everything would be fine. Popular hardware will be rewarded much and unpopular also a little bit but not too less....

 

very good idea

 

 

Lippokratis had a couple of sli/cf scores (not THAT many, but probably quite valuable in rev. 2 because of the bug that HAD to be fixed, as it was rewarding 3d-benchers with WAY too much boints than they really should have had).

 

i had 2 multi GPU settings there were only 20 points not more i'm more the cpu bencher

 

 

what is when some benchers making more than one submission in one benchmark of one hardware - so that the number of submission raises while there are not more competitioners

 

 

what is with a quad core cpu where i disable 3 cores - is this counting as a single core in wprime? or in others ways - can i bench with a quad core all of the wprime ranking underneath?

[TRG]

I think it's still too early to make bold statements, but I have a few remarks/observation:

 

1. I thought the hwbot was about collecting data from all hardware, but now in rev3 we are more or less discouraging the bench of old hardware? For you information: I love wandering through the bots database and comparing old hardware from the old days..

 

2. When hardware is not popular at this moment, and older than lets say 1 month, with rev3 it will probably never become popular anymore because no one is willing to bench it anymore?

 

3. I have lots of old stuff laying around that wants to be benched, but running SuperPI32M and wPrime1024M on a heavily overclocked Pentium 3 system is now an investment of 5-8 hours of work for what: 0.2 boints? Even on popular Pentium 3 hardware not everybody is benching SuperPI32M and wPrime1024M because they take over 1.5 hours to complete, hence resulting in even less boints and motivation to still do so..

 

4. Is it really necessary to take away points on one place and adding them on another? I think that a multiplier for popular hardware would have the same effect in concept, without changing any rev2 legacy.

 

5. No matter what rev3 does, I applause the hwbot team for trying to shape up the hwbot concept and daring to innovate. But don't forget, hwbot was and still is just a mysql database. And it's partly successful because of it's biggest data-fillers. Don't neglect them!

[Massman]

what is with a quad core cpu where i disable 3 cores - is this counting as a single core in wprime? or in others ways - can i bench with a quad core all of the wprime ranking underneath?

 

No. The engine knows what hardware can be unlocked and if the CPU is not in the list, it will always be categorised under the stock #CPU_core. Furthermore, one can only participate in rankings with equal or more amount of cores ... not lower. So, with an X3, you can only compete in X3 and X4 (if unlockable), not in X2.

[alibabar]

You are right, that's the second major problem we have removed from Rev2. In the past, the popularity of a ranking was calculated based on the amount of submissions in that particular hardware category. In Rev3, this has been changed to unique participants per category.

@Massman thanks, for your answer. You've made a great job for that calculation.

 

@TRG, you've made a nice remarks/observation +1.

[knopflerbruce]

unlock X3 @ X4 ??

 

lg Matti

 

Checksum is enough. You can easily see if 3 or 4 cores were used, the time difference is HUGE, way beyond any tweaks:p

 

That's the point

For the "skill" it don't matter you run a HD5890 under LN2 or for example a mx400 under air.

In both ways you must go to the limit to get on the top and also you must spent a lot of time to get it.

 

 

Of course,this is a problem.

For the algorithms there is no difference between both.

But how it can be handled to make a difference?

 

 

 

I agree with that,there must be an attraction to fight for first

But there is another point of view,too.

Lippokratis for example has maked most of his points under the rules of Rev.2.

It may be that Massman and his Team believe that rare Hardware must be degraded in rev.3.

There were no Problem if this handled so fom the beginning.

But the cut between both revs is to much for the ones who specialized to old and rare Hardware.

It cant be,and this is the point, that someone loose half his points by changing the rules.

 

 

Yeah, thats right.

But there were in the past only a few competitors and imo this will not change in the future.

 

Sorry for my english,but I think you now what I mean.

 

If two submissions get the same score, one cooled by LN2 and "push Ok and run"- style, and the other is tweaked to the limit on air, and get the same there is no way we can reward them differently. Skill may not be correctly rewarded in all cases. But by setting the limit to 50%, and making the rewards relatively small for the first boint giving submissions we reward those who can tweak their air cooled systems as well.

 

However, I don't see why it's not possible to just put some ice cubes in a bucket with water, and make a water loop with no radiator, and then get an advantage that way instead of using a stock cooler:confused: Cooling skills should be rewarded, too.

 

Sure people have benched after rev. 2 before, but it's not THAT different for grinders: buy cheap HW and max it out, getting as much boints as possible. The onyl big difference i can think of is that before you get automatically rewarded if less than 20 users benched (rewarding low skill, as it takes no effort to get boints), and now you have to beat a few guys to make it.

[der8auer]

Thats nice Thank you!

[mtech]

Can you please explain why less popular 3dmark vantage gives more global points for the same place than 3dmark 2003:

1. 3DMark Vantage - Performance 2x GPU rank: 2nd out of 947

63 points

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=936799

 

2. 3Dmark 2003 2x GPU rank: 2nd out of thousands

55.6 points

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=938390

 

Also I found problems with PCMark scores. For example:

PCMark 2005 4x CPU rank: 2nd out of 431, good for 30.4 points

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=913492

1. Actual number of results in PCMark 2005 4x CPU is 923

2. It gives much less global points than 3dmark vantage with similar popularity.

 

Thanks in advance for checking this.

[Totocellux]

I think it's still too early to make bold statements, but I have a few remarks/observation:

 

1. I thought the hwbot was about collecting data from all hardware, but now in rev3 we are more or less discouraging the bench of old hardware? For you information: I love wandering through the bots database and comparing old hardware from the old days..

 

2. When hardware is not popular at this moment, and older than lets say 1 month, with rev3 it will probably never become popular anymore because no one is willing to bench it anymore?

 

3. I have lots of old stuff laying around that wants to be benched, but running SuperPI32M and wPrime1024M on a heavily overclocked Pentium 3 system is now an investment of 5-8 hours of work for what: 0.2 boints? Even on popular Pentium 3 hardware not everybody is benching SuperPI32M and wPrime1024M because they take over 1.5 hours to complete, hence resulting in even less boints and motivation to still do so..

 

4. Is it really necessary to take away points on one place and adding them on another? I think that a multiplier for popular hardware would have the same effect in concept, without changing any rev2 legacy.

 

5. No matter what rev3 does, I applause the hwbot team for trying to shape up the hwbot concept and daring to innovate. But don't forget, hwbot was and still is just a mysql database. And it's partly successful because of it's biggest data-fillers. Don't neglect them!

 

 

.... sacred words!

 

I would add that pushing hard with very old hardware could lead to a high probability of failure, mainly due to wear of components.

 

The real problem is not the failure itself, but the difficulty of finding a new one: unfortunately for these models there is no RMA available.

 

 

 

 

none of the comments made in this thread fall on deaf ears, RB & MM are looking through all replies made by those who formulated their opinion in a respectful manner. Rev3 will get a revision which will address the issues brought up by the community;

 

what will change exactly we can't say yet until we've seen the changes in action on the dev server;

 

 

Thank you for the work and understanding of our situations.

[Bartmasta]

hey I have a bug

 

my wprime 32m submission isnt getting any points because it says it's not my best submission for the cpu but that's not true

 

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=906592&tab=info

 

same for

 

http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=906591

[Guest Autokiller677]

none of the comments made in this thread fall on deaf ears, RB & MM are looking through all replies made by those who formulated their opinion in a respectful manner. Rev3 will get a revision which will address the issues brought up by the community;

 

what will change exactly we can't say yet until we've seen the changes in action on the dev server;

 

That's a word! Thanks a lot!

And thanks for the time you've been speniding in this thread.

[bartx]

I see that function "Scores which changed rank recently" is missing. Someone is going to add it soon?

[eva2000]

Putting a side the popular vs unpopular hardware / 0.1pt issue and multi-gpu allocated pt discrepancies, one thing that seems to be missing from rev3 on result listing/rankings is that in the past it was easy to click on a result to have to expand and show specifics such as cpu/gpus and what i miss is being able to see the submission/result's rank on the actual ranking/list page without having to leave that listing/rank page.

[richba5tard]

I'll see what I can do for rev3.1, I was not able to code both a new result page and expanded ajax view page in rev3.0 due to time constraints.

[Guest Autokiller677]

I found another bug.

This result of mine: http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=895769 receives only 0.1 points wheras this one http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=783192 receives 0.6. Trouble is, I'am the 18th in the ranking and the 0.6 Points result is rank 19. Bit weird.

[websmile]

Is the fact that for the calculation of points not the number of submitted results but the number of results which are availble for points counted correct? Just saw this because sone results, ranked the same and in categories with the same amount of real submissions are rewarded different because of the fact that in one categorie less scores are available for points

[Massman]

I see that function "Scores which changed rank recently" is missing. Someone is going to add it soon?

 

The functionality has been removed completely due to highly inefficient. It took a lot of database space and not that much people used it.

 

As far as I know, there will be a similar feature again in the future.

[Schnitzel_12000]

If two submissions get the same score, one cooled by LN2 and "push Ok and run"- style, and the other is tweaked to the limit on air, and get the same there is no way we can reward them differently. Skill may not be correctly rewarded in all cases. But by setting the limit to 50%, and making the rewards relatively small for the first boint giving submissions we reward those who can tweak their air cooled systems as well.

That was more an rhetorical question.Its's clear that the reward is the same.

But it's still a Problem for thr Airbencher.

 

However, I don't see why it's not possible to just put some ice cubes in a bucket with water, and make a water loop with no radiator, and then get an advantage that way instead of using a stock cooler:confused: Cooling skills should be rewarded, too.

Perhaps an novice has no Watercooler?

 

Sure people have benched after rev. 2 before, but it's not THAT different for grinders: buy cheap HW and max it out, getting as much boints as possible. The onyl big difference i can think of is that before you get automatically rewarded if less than 20 users benched (rewarding low skill, as it takes no effort to get boints), and now you have to beat a few guys to make it.

You say it,the difference is the reward.

With the current system the winner takes it all.

And this is a very big step in relation to rev.2.

And the ones who benched after rules and awarding from rev.2 left out in the cold.

On the other side you pushed popular Hardware to the sky.

In my opinion this is an unfortunate balancing.

[TheKarmakazi]

You say it,the difference is the reward.

With the current system the winner takes it all.

And this is a very big step in relation to rev.2.

And the ones who benched after rules and awarding from rev.2 left out in the cold.

On the other side you pushed popular Hardware to the sky.

In my opinion this is an unfortunate balancing.

 

^ Well everyone has to adapt to a different way of playing, whether benching old hardware or new. Your not the only person who lost points, or has benchmarks that were worth rev2 points not worth anything in rev3. Evolve!!

[Schnitzel_12000]

What I mean are the yesterday scores,not the ones from tomorrow.

[vute]

i mostly benching....used to bench old hardware and it wasn't about the points but coz it's fun and improved my repair skills.almost all mobo's I have tested were resurrected-new caps,MOSFETs even Super i/o chips.I thing this include some effort and deserve little bit more points....I was happy with old point system.now somehow I'm losing motivation.i appreciate your effort to make system more competitive but It doesn't make sense to me to continue...Thank You!

Edited January 3, 2010 by vute

[knopflerbruce]

That was more an rhetorical question.Its's clear that the reward is the same.

But it's still a Problem for thr Airbencher.

 

 

Perhaps an novice has no Watercooler?

 

 

You say it,the difference is the reward.

With the current system the winner takes it all.

And this is a very big step in relation to rev.2.

And the ones who benched after rules and awarding from rev.2 left out in the cold.

On the other side you pushed popular Hardware to the sky.

In my opinion this is an unfortunate balancing.

 

Open the window and get -10c in your room, that should help as well:p

 

With properly tweaked and maxed out systems I can't imagine that you're way off receiving boints on air, even without opening the windows. But if you can't tweak or use good cooling, of course that's disadvantage.

 

A cheap water block and a pump isn't that expensive, either, btw... you don't even need a radiator for that ghetto chiller I suggested.

[Massman]

Perhaps an novice has no Watercooler?

 

Watercooling is the next step. If you're serious about having overclocking as a hobby, you'll make the change one day. We cannot reward people for not being able/willing to try new cooling methods.