SF3D Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 If I would be single man and my age would be 24 I could easily take part, I think. No real life responsibilities and all what I do would be just fun. Having all 3 kids, 2 jobs and a lot of other things to do, this doesn't look like a very good idea. I am not sure can I be motivated to hunt CPU-frequency or do some 3DM11 all out for example. This is actually really hard for me, but I am not sure if I can find any way to be in. League won't need me, but still it sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hokiealumnus Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 +1 to pretty much all of that. Not that I'm a heavily competitive pro overclocker, it just sucks to have what ranking I do have thrown to nothingness. I'll have no ranking, no time to try and rustle a team together for this new stuff....just be out there in the ether, attempting to give my team a few points without any ranking for myself. Yay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoF Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Well sounds like almost everybody of the current pro-league is of the same opinion - so please: leave it as it is! EVERYBODY with one or two team sessions can be PRO if he wants to - we just need to work on more "pro's" - that is the real task Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viss Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 I wonder what the expectations are, how many teams starting the leage would be considered reasonable and how many do you think wil be competing until the end of the season ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinos22 Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) Pro OC league should not be what you want to try make mainstream most effectively if you really want to boost OC scene, it should be a more general section but even that section will find this change too drastic. Same as P55 that was never going to take 3D01, it was too mainstream at the time also. Pro OC league can definitely contribute and nothing wrong with F1OC style competition but you need to introduce a seasonal comp for pros and whatever you want to do as far as more drastic changes you have to make the changes more gradual or you could alienate whatever pro community you have right now. Edited February 28, 2013 by dinos22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
der8auer Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 I'm also a bit concerned about the future of this kind of overclocking. Reading the posts in this thread I'm not sure whether there will be a lot of team. I like the idea of the seasoned competitions but I won't be able to be part of that. Too much new hardware to bench which I will not be able to afford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splave Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) I call vince, just sayin Well something has to change, is so stale here now. Why dont we give something new a chance? Because the old is getting old IMO Edited February 27, 2013 by Splave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbuass Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Why don't keep the pro League and introduce F1 Pro competitions... I think is more sense. But since it will change in 2 days, I will look for you guys, and cross my fingers to go everything all right. Unfortunately, I believe I will be out the League. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 Well, I guess it will be interesting to see new folks stepping up . Most of the concerns outted here are understandible, but not practically of any concern. In fact, and I don't mean to be offensive but just pointing ou my observation, what I see in this thread is a whole lot of people with a lack of creativity to become competitive in this style of competition. Lack of time? That's no problem as you don't have to do everything yourself. You're a team of three to five, you can easily split the tasks and pick out the one you can manage. Distance too great between members? No problem, you don't even have to travel to compete together - everyone can submit the result and it will be linked to the Pro OC Team. Can't afford? Maybe find an etailer or distributor to help out possibly only running the cards on air cooling only. That's what some guys did in the F1OC back in the day too, by the way. To be honest, finding a team mate is not just about enlisting another "top overclocker" who is doing exactly the same like you have for the past couple of years. It's about figuring out what things you lack and have someone fill that void. If you only have time to bench once a quarter, then get together with someone that can do all the pre-testing in two months and arrange a weekend/saturday to do the final runs. Or have someone else cover 3/5 stages and you are involved with the other stages. You have lots of experience? Great! Team up with someone who has a lot of time, but not necessarily the knowledge yet and be some sort of a manager helping the team get forward. There are a dozen ways to approach the cup, it's just a matter of being creative. Ironically, the way Team.AU is formed is pretty solid for this type of competition. A pity you guys won't join, but for others it's a good example for how to form a team. Also, the Pro OC Cup is in fact seasonal and will eventually contribute to a Pro OC Ranking. Obviously, a ranking based on the results of multiple seasons can only work ... if there are multiple seasons. And for that to happen, you have to start with the first season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikecdm Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 My opinion this pro cup is that it has the potential to be very cool for the outsider or from the view of those who aren't participating. Potential meaning that if everyone were up for it and were going to be all in then it could succeed. I'm not sure how you guys will like it and it seems that as of now most don't. Right now I could really careless what goes on in the pro league. I see big scores come in all the time, but most are just slightly edging out the last score and it's always the same stuff with highly binned stuff. These big scores come at random times. Like the last couple of days team AU. got together and put up some nice scores that deserve recognition. The cool thing was that it was a team effort and they all did it. What I think is pretty cool about the cup is that it has the potential to let the pros work with stuff that they aren't used to. Not the greatest and the fastest, but still relevant and new hardware. Just like recently, those who have participated in the trinity challenges. I'm pretty sure Splave was trying this out as was Xtremeaddict and a few more who i cant remember off the top off my head. Things like that are more interesting to me than seeing the same stuff over and over. The downside is that since it's a 3 month contest we'll see lots of sandbagging. Possibly very few updates. If the Pros are not be up for it, then it's a big fail. Then there are those who really don't care about Ln2 clocks. Best hardware or not, they like clocks on ambient cooling. I see that a lot on some forums, where someone posts a link to a new WR and there are countless pages of people crying about this not being practical, or they want to see 8ghz with all cores not just 1. If the idea is to spark new life or to grab the attention of the outside world, then some of those people might not care either way. Maybe there is more to this than to just $park new life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbuass Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) I believe you think is easy to find a etailer... to find partners...to get free time... Also to look for hardware you are not intersted... Is easy to solve all problems "written how to do"... but maybe... in the real life... is not too easy. I hope its not one more step, to people leaves this house.... However hwbot is yours... if it was under my control, I was doing different way. Edited February 28, 2013 by rbuass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 Years ago, maybe around 2003/2004, on a local forum in Belgian a guy by the name of JorT got in touch with a local PC store to lend him some gear to break a MHz record. He got the gear, got close to the record and had a local news paper write a story on it. In small, small Belgium, I know of at least three distributors/stores that would help out with hardware supply, small or large. But, yeah, I wouldn't be able to get a graphics card that I can modify to the fullest or could even run on LN2, but they might hook me up with a local marketing guy that can spare one. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Macci used to work for a PC store as well. And please don't pretend I don't know how "real life" works in terms of hardware sponsorship. I was around for a while before receiving any free gear for overclocking-only and much of that was as a member of Madshrimps, not because I was involved with HWBOT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbuass Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 So I don't know Pieter.... cus after lots of efforts and time I spent... very few times I got one motherboard... or one videocard... I think there are a high difference in to be sponsored and to work for a vendor.... Further... I don't know Belgium... but you can be sure here is not the same than Europe. So... never one size fits all, because each country.. each region... can be completely different. For example... USA and Taiwan guys have the good privilege to live in a hardware paradise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinos22 Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Ironically, the way Team.AU is formed is pretty solid for this type of competition. A pity you guys won't join, but for others it's a good example for how to form a team. Ironically, that should be telling you something about R5. Well something has to change, is so stale here now. Why dont we give something new a chance? Because the old is getting old IMO agree and i have suggested an alternative which i thought was being implemented in first place as we've been talking about this for a long time and even went ahead and formed a Team.AU in anticipation of this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyrock Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Hi all I just noticed about R5 Pro OC Cup things yesterday and was surprised that current Pro OC league will disappear tomorrow. I'm not a sponsored OCer, am only an amateur. I do extreme OC as a hobby. So I prefer freestyle OCing as dnos-san wrote. I'm not interested in a F1 style competition at all. So I will not join the Cup, maybe go back to OC league... It was fun to compete with big guys here in a freestyle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbuass Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Wanna bring newcomers? Wanna see people intersted. Don't need to remove Pro league... Just for experience. Add benchmarks like Crysis benchmark... and you will bring the huge gaming community. Every great score posted in LN2... in websites around the world... the first question... Can it run Crysis? So... take the gamers benchmarks and do not center only in 3Dmark... so... you will see lots of gamers join the overclocking community. Don't need to remove or change... but increase Its not joking...and will keep OC alive for a long time. Don't be fixed only in old benchs and old school (don't need to remove... is jut to know how to separate the things) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinos22 Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 that is a reasonable suggestion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 We might have game benchmarks in the future. That is a good suggestion! Hi all I just noticed about R5 Pro OC Cup things yesterday and was surprised that current Pro OC league will disappear tomorrow. I'm not a sponsored OCer, am only an amateur. I do extreme OC as a hobby. So I prefer freestyle OCing as dnos-san wrote. I'm not interested in a F1 style competition at all. So I will not join the Cup, maybe go back to OC league... It was fun to compete with big guys here in a freestyle. Hi Gyrock, A pity you will not join in the Pro OC Cup. But it will be possible to join the OC League, no problem! Freestyle benching will always possible at HWBOT, only the Pro OC will be different . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle fester Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Just for lols is hwbot to a community forum or a dictatorship ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 It's a place for the community, made possible by community members and build to support and grow the community. A dictatorship is something completely else and I really hope you realize that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob(nz) Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I am confused - the feedback that is being given by many people that are highly ranked in the Pro league (the majority of the top10) is that they are not happy about the change, you ask for feedback then say it is going ahead anyway. In trying to generate more interest from newcomers it is only frustrating the guys that have been active anyway - not really sure how you think this helps?? I am all for a team cup comp where people can choose to participate - but why kill the other league? Does it really matter if it stays? I would really suggest getting the input of the community you are wanting to build before pulling the trigger on this......some of your longest working and most passionate members arent happy with the change....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 I'm not sure what people are most angry about: removing a league which no one cares about or not having a suggestion put into the code. Because that's what the change essentially is: removing the Pro OC League, something pretty much 99% of the participants have said not to care about, pretty much no one follows and no one even communicates about. Over the past months, I've heard tons of Pro OC members complain that it's either impossible to compete, not their main focus ("just for fun") or completely set up the wrong way and therefore dominated by money. I hear nothing but complaints and nothing but people saying they don't care. Just as an example: how many people talked about Team.AU going up to #4 in the Pro OC League after last weekend's insane bench marathon? I wrote about it in a news flash and two or three talked about it on Facebook/forum. The main communication about that weekend was "hey, we broke this record and set these other top scores". If you, top-5 in the league, don't communicate about it, how do you expect other people to talk about it? Mikecdm described it perfectly: "Right now I could really careless what goes on in the pro league. I see big scores come in all the time, but most are just slightly edging out the last score and it's always the same stuff with highly binned stuff". If you don't really care about the league and your followers don't really care and random visitors don't really care. Why have the league in the first place? Actually, from what I gather from this thread is that the "perfect" solution would be to have a "League + Competition"-type ranking. Well, we're doing the competition and forget about the league. That's implementing 1/2 of what the suggested solution is. Honestly, the "league + competition" combination is a good suggestion, but has the following drawbacks (short list): 1) Complicates the competition format even further: now you have to explain the point algoritm (including why only global scores count, why certain benchmarks gets more points and so on) + the competitions (why are they there, how to compete, what's the effect). 2) Complicates the benching process even further: you don't only need the hardware to do all those 15 benchmarks (we know how much people already complain about the $$ necessary to compete), you also need to gear up for seasonal competitions. 3) Complicates the backend code: we would have to maintain two sets of code - one for the League and one for the competitions(*). 4) People will complain about the balance between benchmarks and competitions; some will say there is too much emphesis on the benchmarks (like 3DMark01) others will argue that the competition is biased to one particular team or hardware. 5) We are still stuck with this "competition with no end"-format where no one really ever is declared a winner. In the end, having a combination of both makes things more complex on both the side of the host (our code), the participants ($$, time) and the spectators (explanation). The extra benefits such as the opportunity of "freestyle" benchmarking contributing to your personal league, given you consider this a valid argument(*2), do not outweigh the benefits of reducing the complexity and increasing the transparency of having just a cup. (*): This is particularly a problem if you want to keep track of who was active for which team, a problem which is related to the importance of a historical overview of competitive overclocking (something the community wants). The Pro OC Cup revolves around small competition teams whereas the League revolves around individual user accounts. (*2): the argument of "freestyle" benchmarking being an important argument to (at least) keep the league (partially) is, in my opinion, not really valid. For one, no one really cares about the league and mostly cares about just getting a better score in the rankings (see previous paragraph). This does not change. For two, the effect of these "freestyle" benchmark results would be reduced by introducing the competition points into the Pro OC League, possibly to a point where you can't just do "freestyle" and still be competitive. It's not like this league + competition idea has been rejected by default; it was genuinely taken into consideration and later dismissed because of some of the reasons I mentioned above. This Pro OC Cup wasn't an idea that came overnight; it's been discussed and debated over and over again with people that also truely care about the future of overclocking. That includes for example Elmor, Kingpin and Neo (from the overclocking), but also discussed with people from "the other side" / business in an attempt to ensure that whatever plan comes out is appealing to those who invest parts of their budgets in this hobby. Heck, it's even been discussed with people that have no genuine interest in becoming an extreme overclocker but follow it sort of, again in an attempt to check if they would be interested in following this new format. Hours and hours and hours. All with the best interest for overclocking, obviously. If you're only benching once a month or two/three times a quarter, the cup actually gives you more options to be competitive if that's what you like. If you just enjoy setting scores in benchmarks regardless of your personal ranking, that's still an option too. If you're benching for the team (eg: Pure or overclockers.com) only, that's an option too. The only thing that really changes is that the unappealing, boring and generally disliked Pro OC League transforms into a Cup where the focus on benchmark and competition is narrowed down to five benchmarks and three months. I understand change is difficult and I also understand that this new cup will have some people face new difficulties and problems. But a new challenge also opens new possibilities; possibilities I (and others with me) strongly believe will put pro oc on the right track. //off to write the news article about the cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbuass Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) So... Kingpin... don't need to prove nothing for nobody.... and he will keep braking records for sure... killing Titans and the best... and have support and knowledge enough to do not worry... then... if keep or not to keep the Pro League... i think is the same to Kingpin. Elmor... Is a very good guy and overclocker.... but looks for Elmor is not very active in Pro League... (or no???). Neo.... no ... Neo is not happy ... because I did talk about the changes with Neo.... lots of times... and I am sure he will not like you remove the Pro League... so don't tell Neo agree with you. I don't think Pro League is not important: http://hwbot.org/news/8877_2012_hwbot_round_up_most_viewed_results_users_competitions_and_more/ Also... I noticed after Hwbot announced will remove Pro League... the activities dropped down and "very few" scores sent to Hwbot (if you compare to before)... So....according you " it's been discussed and debated over and over again with people that also truely care about the future of overclocking." Who is the people???. I see no quiz to discuss the Pro League with Pro League guys... is that democratic? I was not includded... and looks like Team Au, SF3D, Dinos, Gyrock, Uncle Fester..and from what I know... Nacho, Hazzan, Xtreme Addict, and many others... that was active and REALLY care about overclocking was not inside this kind of debate. Also... IMHO, I did work at least a lit bit ... and just managed competitions, classes, and jusr worked hard to my community in Brazil... also not includded. Its completely non sense "to me". I am completely disencouraged, and I just left hwbot about one month ago. I overclocked hard in January... and my last bench session was in Campus Party Brazil... so... after confirmation Rev 5 will kill Pro League... I am just leaved. From my point of view... I will start a new way to overclock here... and will keep my free style... and include by myself "gaming benchmarks" like crysis benchmark in presentations, classes.... but no more to Hwbot... rankings and all things like I did before. Sorry Massman... I just asked lots of times to change something in Hwbot... and it never happens. I did proposal some things before .... to only earn point, one per 3D benchmark (and not earn for 1, 2, 3, 4 VGAs, to be more fair with people that have less money).... to separate Intel / AMD CPUs, to encourage people to bench CPU AMD .... to do not earn point from obscure hardware, like we can see when people amount 60 points competing alone and braking Xeons 50 cores Wprime Records.... To earn points ONLY 2 months after hardware is available to prevent people brake records before all people have chance to compete same conditions (happened when GTX 580... after 7970 was launched.... and now... will be the same with Titan).... and I think it was never considered. So.... I will keep inside hwbot... and following the guys... and sometime, will send one new result to Hwbot. But keep proactive like before... I think... only in Rev. 6 that I hope is so soon. Thanks for all.... I believe I just told all my point of view and I am leaving discussion right now. I hope Hwbot and get the best way and wish complete sucess for you. Ah,.... and sorry the broken english... I hate do not find the correct words to explain what I want. Edited February 28, 2013 by rbuass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF3D Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Don't want to take any credit, but I just feel that the ones who have really created the "PRO overclocking" scene and done all the scores and work during these fu***ng hard years are not taken in to account at all. This new league idea is just some personal opionion how things should go in the future. I think it will be as boring as the current system as overclocking can not be interesting no matter what you do. Where was this discussion about new league and with who was decisions done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booj Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 It is becoming clearer that generating external interest is the main goal here. I am sorry, I just do not see how thousands of non overclockers will suddenly be compelled to follow extreme overclocking. It is too abstract a concept and too far removed from the 24/7 users, the gamers and those who see it as nothing more than a curiosity. A last 5 min backup reveal situation is not compelling viewing unlike pro gaming where viewers can follow it blow by blow like any sport. I do not believe that 99% of competitors don't care about the pro league. If they did not care, they would not submit anything. Using the team.au example, soon the scores themselves will disappear from the public consciousness. What remains is the #4 rank. The league rank is what HWbot was built upon, and getting rid of it seemingly invalidates all the effort put in. HWbot functions as a database as well.. a cumulative record of all overclocking done by everyone relative to everyone else. Many of these long time guys will seemingly have their work invalidated by this change. HWbot gained success by using an algorithm to assign a cumulative effort.. The change seems largely arbitrary and doesn't sit well with many. I don't see whats so complicated about keeping both the cup and league. Those in the league understand the algorithm. Some guys do only 3d, others only 2d, others only the really tweakable ones like pcm05, spi32 and 3d01. How many guys really compete to be no. 1 in the current pro league? Does every one in the league submit results in all categories and bust their guts to max every setup in every benchmark? besides a few, I think not.. So the argument about not being able to compete in the current pro league is largely irrelevant to all but a very small number of users. I think the competitiveness argument comes from a guy attempting to compete with a 1 in 1000 CPU, the change, even if successful, will not fix that. IIRC one of the reasons for the pro league was to separate those who have backing, as well as employees, reviewers etc from the pay their own way enthusiasts. Not everyone is trying to be number one. To force this type of user into a pro cup is not going to be successful. Guys like rbuass deserve credit for being hardcore enough to really compete with these factory backed guys. Now he faces a situation where he has to bench hardware he has no interest in, in a benchmark he has no interest in, all out of his own pocket... not going to happen... A lot of people have a problem being, cough cough dictated what bench to run. That means many of their favorite varied benches will be irrelevant in the future which does not sit well. Why does there need to be a winner? Don't we have MOA and GOOC for that? Russia, Andre, team,au, Vince etc are at the top because they consistently bench to a very high standard.. they are already the winners so to speak. At the end of the day, you are alienating a big chunk of the hardcore overclockers who want no part of a comp.. is there a prize? find $10k to give to a cup winner and maybe they will be interested. Otherwise, the hobby itself is being screwed with. That's what it is for most.. a hobby. Some will end up not submitting anything on the bot at all.. I don't think HWbot wants a situation where world records consistently do not show up on this site, but in local forums and in PR from manufacturers.. its a kind of ridiculous leap i know.. but that's the slippery slope towards irrelevancy. Going back to myself.. its a get with the program or shipout situation. HWbot, as a database and cumulative result of my scores over 5 or 6 years gets thrown out the window. So what if i have the 50th fastest 680 in 05 and 200 other results.. the points calculation is the cumulative result of that, and if thats gone, then whats the point of submitting anything? longest. post. ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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