rbuass Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Hi overclockers. I am bringing back this issue, because I believe is good time. Since Haswell ES cloks better than retail, only overclockers that can get free ES samples, will have the advantage. This is completely unfair in my point of view. This question was analysed before, and some guys told ES and Retail is the same. But IMHO, this give a huge advantage to people that have samples support with ES parts. Also the question is feed the ilegal business (ebay for example)... because ES samples can not be sold legally. To me, ALL overclockers need to use always ALL retail parts (that is available to all). So, I ask kindly to open a pool and vote for this (I am sure that the most of guys that agree to allow ES, must receive and use ES samples). So... let's do it fairly to all.... and also do not encourage ilegal business. I hope you understand me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Scott Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Would you still be saying this if you were an ES recipient? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjjc Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Come on Rbuass, you're a good bencher man but every time things don't go your way we get threads like this. Just get on and bench. I vote the rules stay the same. ES in pro league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireKillerGR Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Hey Ronaldo I really dont think there is something to vote for. In OC category ES are not allowed and should be kept this way. So chances should be more equal that way. The only question is about the Pro Oc cup. Should ES be allowed for Cup yes or no? This subject is something which has to be discussed on a different section IMO. Anyway, glad we both have the same beliefs Discussion about allowing ES is something which has to be discussed between Staff and teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobnova Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Welcome to Pro Cup. Don't like it? Drop down to OC league. This has to be the most over-discussed topic on this forum, it'll never be settled. I don't see ES ever being banned personally, not when the combined might of Asus, EVGA and Gigabyte are ESing it up for marketing purposes. Think about it: HWBot bans ES. Now all the WRs set for marketing with ES CPUs don't show up on HWBot. HWBot looses relevance. HWBot dies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaPaKaH Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 (edited) I think the current ES/non-ES rules are laid out in a very sensible manner. If someone wants to use Haswell (=current-gen) ES - welcome to the Pro OC cup where people also have access to quad-Titan and octa-CPU configs ... and let us please not discuss what is fair and what is not in an "everything goes" sort of competition (which the Pro OC cup is). Edited June 7, 2013 by TaPaKaH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobnova Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 How long have ES been allowed in Pro League / Pro Cup? Forever? (Since it existed, anyway) Joining a league and then arguing to have the rules changed in your favor is sort of silly IMO. I'm not going to join a soccer (football, whatever) team and then try to get heading the ball banned because I'm not tall enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 As far as I know, average ES is still about the same like average retail. There is one specific batch that is slightly better for ES, but actually there are already a couple of 6.5G retail 3D chips floating around. Or to put it differently: ES is not per definition better than retail. It is just about binning. Apparently 7/100 retails are 6.5G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Gappo Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Caralho I thought ES Haswell was going to be allowed in XOC this time also? Fyi, there are three types of CPUs Engineering sample: testing different variables of the silicon, no product SKU in CPU-Z (like Gulftown A0) Qualification sample: testing the final version of the silicon, carries product SKU in CPU-Z (like all media samples) Retail sample: -duh- I assume all the question mark Q-SPEC QDxx have "genuine intel" as product name in CPU-Z? As a sidenote to this, I would like to advocate for allowing qualification samples to be used in all rankings. So, as long as there is a product SKU identifiable in CPUZ the processor sample is allowed in any HWBOT ranking. Anything that just carries the genuine intel naming scheme remains for the pros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 On a sidenote, QE6S = QS QEH6 = QS Prime QEH6 resembles full retail overclocking capability and should actually be regarded as retail. These should be the ones reviewers get. QE6S was supposed to be QS but had some issues with the fiVR which had to be fixed (limited to 1.65V vcore or so). ASRock and ASUS have a solution for the QE6S, the other vendors don't. If you ask Intel, QEH6 = retail and QE6S is not. It is not possible to differentiate between QEH6 and QE6S in CPU-Z as both carry a product SKU number. Some QE6S are better than QEH6, but it kind of depends. In the Corsair OC event we saw two QEH6 clocked to 6.8G+ CPUZ. Just some bits of information ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbuass Posted June 7, 2013 Author Share Posted June 7, 2013 Would you still be saying this if you were an ES recipient? You can be sure... YES Come on Rbuass, you're a good bencher man but every time things don't go your way we get threads like this. Just get on and bench. I vote the rules stay the same. ES in pro league. Perfect man... is that a correct way... you gave your opinion and I respect. The reason I want to the pool is not to force to ban ES, but look for what the most of overclockers are thinking. Maybe I am wrong... and need to accept ES must be allowed... But maybe... the most of overclockers can think like me. Hey Ronaldo I really dont think there is something to vote for. In OC category ES are not allowed and should be kept this way. So chances should be more equal that way. The only question is about the Pro Oc cup. Should ES be allowed for Cup yes or no? This subject is something which has to be discussed on a different section IMO. Anyway, glad we both have the same beliefs Discussion about allowing ES is something which has to be discussed between Staff and teams. I bring back this discussion mate, because it was discuss also in Pro Cup topic... is not only a question that I bring, but there are other important overclockers that think the same. How long have ES been allowed in Pro League / Pro Cup? Forever? (Since it existed, anyway)Joining a league and then arguing to have the rules changed in your favor is sort of silly IMO. I'm not going to join a soccer (football, whatever) team and then try to get heading the ball banned because I'm not tall enough. Hwbot just changed lots of times, looking for the best for the overclockers. The reason you gave: "How long have ES been allowed in Pro League / Pro Cup? Forever? (Since it existed, anyway)" Is not enough... not because Hwbot do it this way... that means need to keep always this way... Hwbot ALWAYS has Pro Overclockers ranking... and now... we are no more ranked (is only one example). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbuass Posted June 7, 2013 Author Share Posted June 7, 2013 As far as I know, average ES is still about the same like average retail. There is one specific batch that is slightly better for ES, but actually there are already a couple of 6.5G retail 3D chips floating around. Or to put it differently: ES is not per definition better than retail. It is just about binning. Apparently 7/100 retails are 6.5G. Different mate. You can see trays with 100 CPUs in some golden hands... instead to give the same conditions to all. Also.... if is the same, why its not allowed to MOA and the most important competitions. The reason is not "because is better", but "because the business is ilegal and also because is for few and it will not give the same chances for all". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Gappo Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Good to know. So that's a no on other leagues then I take it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Not all ES are acquired illegally ... Different competitions have different rules. In some competitions Titan is allowed, in some they are not. In some competitions you need to use a (only-available-in-Asia) Galaxy graphics card and in some you don't. HWBOT is not the biggest catalyst for the illegal ES circuit. Except for Gulftown and first-gen Conroe, allowing ES and retail gave everyone the same chances! In fact, for the last couple of generations the ES people were in quite a big disadvantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Good to know. So that's a no on other leagues then I take it? The rules are like they were for Ivy Bridge and before. In that thread I merely made a suggestion ... no rules were changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobnova Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Different mate.You can see trays with 100 CPUs in some golden hands... instead to give the same conditions to all. Also.... if is the same, why its not allowed to MOA and the most important competitions. The reason is not "because is better", but "because the business is ilegal and also because is for few and it will not give the same chances for all". People get trays of 100 retail CPUs too, should that be banned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbuass Posted June 7, 2013 Author Share Posted June 7, 2013 (edited) People get trays of 100 retail CPUs too, should that be banned? No... only who don't get trays with 100 CPUs should be... cause they are not important enough to deserve it Edited June 7, 2013 by rbuass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schenckel bros Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Hwbot need to ban something that is not for all... rules is for all... I vote for Ban ES. Or create a new league for only ES overclockers and separated rules, it's my view point... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireKillerGR Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Problem isnt if its fair or not. Rules should be kept the same, ES for pro oc cup. Anyone who wants to use an ES and stay on his category, there is an option when submitting his score. Aka not participating for points. It would be nice all pro ocers could get ES cpus. For us who cant, we just have to deal with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GENiEBEN Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 See, it is threads like this that will make people remember your whining rather than your great results. Accept it that conditions will never be fair for everyone, some might not even afford the hardware you are benching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobnova Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Hwbot need to ban something that is not for all... rules is for all... I vote for Ban ES. Or create a new league for only ES overclockers and separated rules, it's my view point... It exists, it's called the Pro Cup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crustytheclown Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Imo it's all about binning... vendors have been binning es hasswell chips since 2012... Every time a new cpu comes out it's the same discussion,but i'm pretty sure by late August there will be retails that will hit es speeds easily...who doesn't remember the Gulftown es topic? We still haven't seen any Costa Rica's out only a couble of Malay's batches so we cannot make that kind of assumptions so early... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 The ONLY thing that matters, long-term, is PERCEPTION. People now associate Haswell ES as being better than retail. They can be differentiated by the (ES) tags in CPU-Z, so people are always going to wonder. It doesn't matter if retail matures over 6 months and beats ES. This is why ES have to be treated differently. Everything is fine if retail is better than ES on launch day- Joe Public thinks "Yay! We have a chance!" If ES is better, there is whining UNLESS ES are going to a different league. IMO, ES MUST be kept separate- in the Pro League. The way it was originally decided. The XOC or Enthusiast League should be ES free. ES decided by (ES,) not by stepping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knopflerbruce Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 It exists, it's called the Pro Cup Exactly! The "pro" part of hwbot was made for those with a certain amount of support AND access to engineering samples. I bet that if we create yet another league, some people will still complain because ES gets some world records that are 'unbeatable' with retails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebanik Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Btw why has ranking been removed for Pro-OC? It was always great to watch the pros fight it out between themselves, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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