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m0r7if3r

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Posts posted by m0r7if3r

  1. Some good thoughts, results do go through that process. The community views them and has the option to report anything that looks off. And again we are going off what has been the norm online for a very long time. People don't realize how the screen shot itself has evolved since hwbot came around, it's amazing how good everyone is at them now. New accounts are subject to the same scrutiny by the community so I'm not sure pre-validating accounts would help. If we could validate each account to a person that would be helpful, but then you'd need to verify hardware ownership and a myriad of other details to be 100% sure. There are changes hwbot can and will be making, and it's important for the community to be involved so keep the ideas coming.

     

    You misread it. Read it again. Verify each SUBMISSION. As in, have someone look at the submission before they are allowed to submit their OWN results. Maybe if you want 3 checks per submission you show 3 screenshots per screenshot submitted...idk, it's just an idea. It's easy enough to implement (specially in PHP, you just shift that shit out to the submissions sql database(s) and add a row)...but it's really rough. Submissions have to be completely anonymous, so you have to encrypt(ish...) any info about it and extreme submissions would have to be handled differently so morons don't thumbs down it just cause it's a wr score or somethin. IDK, you guys work it out, you're the ones making ad revenue (or you can give me a cut and i'll work it out :D) This is getting OT though...if you want to discuss it further take it to OCF or PM me here.

  2. Of all the people...

     

    Cheating implies knowledge, and that someone knowingly is side-stepping the rules, in this case like I said earlier, it looks more like a simple misunderstanding of our rules. So once again for all the slow people, hwbot never accused anyone of cheating. The results that are in violation of our rules (because we have no indication they are not) will be blocked.

     

    Can you extend this policy to all scores? I believe the way these things are usually handled is that the burden of proof lies with the accuser (in this case the accuser is also the judge...nother topic entirely). I haven't seen anything that proves dejo was cheating. Now, even if we work backwards, assume every score is cheated until proved otherwise, that means ANY score without a video now has to be removed from the bot. I'm not trying to be rude or argumentative, I just think that a CLEAR reason needs to be presented that applies, not only to this situation, but to the entirity of the bot. Given, this is a rather specific case, but what if it arises again, you need a precedent to fall back onto. Even if you are using this as your precedent to establish some sort of fallback, you have not provided justification for WHY you believe either the spirit of the bot or the rules themselves support your decision. Again...I know I sound like an asshole, but you guys say you want to steer clear of trouble, this is the way to do it.

     

    I suppose the issue is overarching. Submissions at the bot take a sort of purgatorious nature upon submission. They become more valid over time as more people see (and check out) the results, but are (with exceptions...top 20 namely) not verified upon submission. This lack of verification and lack of denial puts the admin in a rather powerful (and admittedly difficult...I wouldn't wanna be in you guys' shoes on this at all, trust me) situation. You have the ability to say "because of lack of proof, this submission is ___________" and fill in the blank with either valid OR invalid...maybe this is something to be addressed in rev 4, requiring a score to go through some sort of anonymous validation process, forcing users to validate a score or 2 before they can submit...idk, just something to think about.

  3. Some people have a real reading comprehension problem, you keep throwing the cheat word around when we have never accused anyone of that.

     

    Ok...if no one's being accused of cheating, why is October not on our team anymore? What EXACTLY is the violation here? The REASON behind this. You've said it's for the good of the community, and I can understand that desire, but on what precedent? What portion of the rules states it's not allowed?

     

    And I don't even need to quote you to saying that dejo was score sharing...that sounds like a cheating accusation to me. What about pulling results? Is that something you do to results that you think are legitimate (not cheating)?

     

    EDIT: Also, Maxi, if you look at the scores in question, the icon layouts are completely different (sans the windows placed ones). If you look through dejo's old submissions for 03 you can see he developed a style of placing these that (imo) his daughter picked up, whether it was taught directly to her or not.

  4. Let's add this line to the rules and this situation is solved :).

     

    Fine, that would be well and good, but be SPECIFIC. Lets say I want to get my roommate into things...do we have to share an account? What about my girlfriend? What about family I don't share residence with? What, SPECIFICALLY, is wrong...you have yet to give any indication of that.

  5. Innocent until proven guilty is what most people think tongue.gif. Apparently here it's guilty until proven innocent.

     

    Err...proven innocent? Guilty until the staff decides otherwise, regardless of the amount of proof...to the argument that window layout is the same, that's something that's very easily learned. And honestly, dejo's a smart guy, if he were trying to cheat anyone out of anything don't you think he would have rearranged the windows some?

  6. Clearly some of the most convoluted doubletalk I've seen in a minute. You'll close your eyes if the point total is small? Your idea of justice and fairness is that whimsical?

     

    No rule was broken that you've been willing to site during this long drawn out conversation. Since no rule was broken are you going to write a new rule which addresses your concerns?

     

    This would be a good solution. If you don't want it happening, write a rule stating SPECIFICALLY, how distant a community member must be from another community member for them to both have boints. You're denying scores on the vague notion of suspiciousness.

  7. Yes, you have a valid point. I fully agree that's the way it should be. As I mentioned earlier, when I first read that Dejo and his daughter were bonding over this hobby, I smiled ear to ear. I think it's awesome and absolutely wish more people would get have this with family and friends.

     

    Sure seems like it to me...

     

    Every day I have to face HWBOT/internet reality. Although I absolutely do not like myself asking for his daughter to not bench for points, something I think i've proven by given a dozen of alternative ways for Dejo and his daughter to bond over this hobby, I have to take into account that a large majority of the HWBOT community might not understand this particular situation. Not the daughter benching, but the team getting a boost in points by an account that can easily be perceived as 'double account to generate extra points'.

     

    First off, how about facing ACTUAL reality first in that they can provide any sort of proof you might desire as they are FULLY legitimate in their venture. Second off, you are not ASKING, you are TELLING. You have not given any option but points or team OCF. Third off, this situation has been brought to light, we have a thread, verification can be posted in public for ANYONE to see...there's nothign under the table about this. Perception and reality are two completely separate things...and the REALITY of this situation is that there is nothing wrong with what is going on.

     

    I would be crushed to find out Dejo's daughter would have to face the cheating accusations of people who are unaware of the situation at home. But, from years of HWBOT experience, I know there would be a tipping point when the daughter account would generate so much points people would start to complain in public. So, that's why we've suggested all the alternatives.

     

    but you're perfectly fine with just banning her from earning points from her team...I can see how much her facing cheating accusations would "crush" you. How many points is so many? out of the 1000's of points OC Forums has, how much difference is that 300 making? I can tell you, it's not even 1 place on the leaderboards.

     

    Actually, when Dejo ignored my PM and just created the account anyway, we closed our eyes for a while as the account was not really generating lots of points. When the first set of scores came in, we asked Dejo what's up, got a 'reasonable' explanation and, again, closed our eyes assuming this was just a one-time thing. Today, that account is generating 300+ points ... which is quite a lot.

     

    see previous point. Also, I have a rather hard time believing that dejo would have ignored your wishes when HE came to YOU to clear it. I don't begin to see what is unreasonable about their situation now. If you're gonna start pulling scores for using the same boards, ram, and cpu's for 3d, you should take a look at icebob's 3x580 run that was done at the OCF benching party. That is Brollok's CPU, 1 of dejo's 580's, 1 of brollok's 580's, 1 of icebob's 580's...and I think icebob's board and ram. If that score flies, how do any of these not?

     

    I might be out of line here, but I guess if the daughter's account would just have low-end hardware, none of which also in Dejo's account and reasonably low total score, it would've been under the radar for sure. Like I said, we closed eyes twice.

     

    OH, so THIS is the point where you're out of line...insisting that low end hardware be used. So it's still either points or OCF.

     

    We undertook several more attempts to solve this matter quietly and another moderator than myself tried to explain the situation and give some suggestions to solve the issue. Not to 'be corrupt', but just so his daughter could enjoy all the benching and other community members would not be upset about this 'weird' account generating a significant amount of points for the team. We don't accuse anyone (if we did, the account would've been banned), we don't try to punish anyone, all we want to forsee problems in (hwbot's) reality and address them before they occur.

     

    what community members are upset here? What proof do they need? Is your purpose as the leader here not to serve the people of the bot? Has the community not shown (enough?) support for dejo's cause?

     

    Exactly, what happened to them? Why is it not possible for Dejo to compromise? Why does it have to be AND account AND points AND the same team? Why is it 'only this way' or 'still only this way'?

     

    Because she's his daughter...he's her father. THAT's why it has to be the same team, just because of that fact you are saying they cannot be on the same team? Where do you draw the line? Families? Households? Family+household? How do you justify your decision on that point? Quite honestly, you seem to lack ANY justification for your case and it has turned into a big issue of 'cause you say so...which is not sufficient reason for anything.

     

    Why is it so difficult to respect that it's possible other people might be suspicious (= bad feelings) about this account and just find a way for them not to be suspicious (= no bad feelings)?

     

    Honestly, I think they should be suspicious. I'm suspicious of EVERY submission that I look at...I look it over, check it out. If it clears, then I let it go, if not I take action. This clears. The only crime here is being open and honest about their intentions.

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