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Lol, that cpu needed 2volts to be stable at that freq. We should start filling the RMA practice, 'cause I think that in the next session at 2V, this 3770 would die

Knopfler and K404, in my posts I described a new Rev5 not based on a strong division between Pro and Oc leagues: in fact, I said that if someone not sponsored has a golden chip and wants to push it to its maximum, he could simply post his "unlimited" score in the other league, as well as in the OC league but at proper frequencies. Same as per the Pro guys: they could post in the Pro league and even in the OC league, by respecting the limits. That way, nobody will face again the decision to go in the major league or to rest in the normal one. And nobody will say to someone to go in the pro because "you're sponsored", when maybe the other guy only has a little support. So this will avoid this kind of discussions and will give people more ways to get points: in a more "protected" environment (oc league) and in the "all in" league also. What do you think 'bout that?

You guys gave me an idea (K and saint19): why don't try to increase the number of competitions between users, by limiting frequencies and by not forcing people to buy X-brand hardware to participate? That would be a test-ground for the things I was saying a few posts ago, to limit frequencies in the OC league.. Instead of modifying the OC league, let's first start in some competitions and let's see how that will turn out. More participation? Less participation? The other thing that often gets me out from the competitions is: Gigabyte comp (giga, only for example, I could have said MSI, Asus etc...), you must buy Giga mobo and Giga vga, to win a Giga mobo, or a Giga Vga... what's the point in that? I'll not but something I currently don't own, to win the same thing, or maybe a little more expensive mobo or vga by the same brand. I really appreciated a Gigabyte competition, the LLano one, in which we had to use whatever mobo, a Llano CPU and do several benchmarks: I obtained the second place, beaten by a inch by ElGappo, and I won a mini-itx Giga mobo with Brazos CPU on it. It was a great comp, I did 3DM11 category record that lasted for many months, with that cpu in that competition, I shared my findings about how to oc, and I really found it stimulating, and the challenge with the other guys was really really funny and interesting!! That kind of comps, must be increased, I think.

Another side-effect of this change in hwbot, would be that we'll not spend 80% of our time to search for the proper cpu or vga. We'll have plenty of time to improve our scores and, since hw releases are on a more tight schedule in the last years, by doing that modification, we'll have a "slowdown" to better squeeze the power out of every single mhz. Then, if you want to still bin large amounts of cpus, you can post even in pro league with unlimited frequencies! Another thing on the people who will cheat anyway, whichever method you'll choose: even in the gaming scenario, sometimes, someone is caught using cheats. It's not easy to spot him, but sooner or later it will be brought down by the mods. Even in F1, 2 years ago, RedBull was caught using aerodynamics not fully permitted. The other teams spotted it, because they had a much more performing car and that was impossible since the limitations were the same for everybody. FIA decided to toggle that specific limit, for RedBull and for the other teams also. I could go on and find other examples from other sports, but the rule is always the same: - there will always be some faggot that won't follow the rules (even for good reasons, but it's always unfair), in EVERY kind of sport. So, improving/changing something can't be stopped by that issue, since in the new method I didn't propose "No screenshot required, post what you want, as you want"... It remains based on trust between users, like it is now. @K404: yeah, correct. And plus, if someone would ask me to replicate my score, I would be glad to show that I have nothing to hide! blunny, it's for my integrity that I would have all the reasons to show that I did it honestly! edit: "blunny"? This is a rock solid moderation

Well, so, for the sake of improving the fair competition on hwbot, it would be too difficult to press a button and record a video? Lol, if that's all the efforts we are going to put in it, I've nothing to say. And I never said that every flucking session will be recorded, I said that only in case of someone complaining about a result maybe the mods could ask a video. And, since there will be frequency limits, you'll not be to the max max max max limit but you'll be in a rather stable situation, so no probs to re-do a run. Hi Lucky, I know what you said, but instead of throwing at me already well-known problems, try to find a solution WITH me. I really think that hwbot, as it is right now, simply can't grow... how much people can afford to change 200cpus to get a decent one? And the same goes for the videocards. Mantaining everything like it is now, it's all about money and time you can spend binning cpus like a monkey. Then you put it on the rig, power up, 7ghz, 100 global points, the end. Where is the skill? You say there will be problems about invalid scores... ok, and we, the users, should report them to the mods, as it always has been. We are the best JUDGES out there, because we all do the same and we know if a score is suspicious. asking for proofs will be necessary in a few cases, just like it is now. And also, remember, the majority of us is honest, I really think that it would be stupid to stop this proposal only basing on some faggot that will always exist and will always get banned sooner or later. Ah sorry I misunderstood since me and mafio we were saying almost the same things.

Wow, wonderful pot! So, if I'm not mistaken, it consists of anodized copper for the lower part, and black anodized aluminium for the top, correct?

Well, right, but it already is like that, now. Same thing goes for the hardware sharing chapter with cpus sold/borrowed from a clocker to another, especially in the same team. But, for the sharing thing, I still see no solution... instead, for the "efficiency" problem, there are 2 solutions: - ALWAYS, bench session video recording (already proposed time ago by... I don't remember who was saying that) - if someone has really really high efficiency, we, the clockers, could ask that guy to do a video recording, only for that specific score Problem solved, as far as I can tell. Do you agree, or do you think that something still needs to be improved? Oh, and thanks for having pointed that out, I didn't think about that in my previous post.

I really don't understand ronaldo... If Hwbot will limit the frequency, who cares about bclk or cpu clock? You can do 106x61=6466 or 109.6x59=6466, it's your business to find the better setting, given that you also have to deal with the ram clock and timings etc... You want to obtain fantastic scores by binning 100 cpus and finding one that can bench at 7GHz? Ok, go and submit the score in the Pro league. You want also points from the OC league? Do the same benchmarks with the same CPU but at limited frequencies, let's say 6,6GHz, and show how much you're good at tweaking. If I've not answered your concerns, please try to re-write, since I don't well understand. sorry.

mhh, yes, but I don't understand what's your point bruce. I made a big post, plenty of suggestions etc... how does this thing that you can import hw, match with my post? I'm not sarcastic, I'm really "confused" edit: aaaaaaaahhhh ok, now I see! "So, let's use this disadvantage that some countries have in respect to others like for example USA, to solve that problem. " Ok, but that was only the "incipit", it is not the main reason why we should do that. Anyway, your example is correct, in fact if people will import hw, we'll have an average frequency available in less time

I'll try to sum things up, to be more clear, pointing out pro and cons, and points on which I don't have a solution but on which we can work togheter to find one. New Pro League: leave it as it is now, or do the "seasons" modifications, maybe I'm a bit more oriented on the seasons way, but it's only my opinion. New OC League: here we have basically 2 problems: 1 - binning kills almost every chance of competition for the top spots, unless you can spend 5.000euros/month in hardware. And THAT is exactly what keeps away many guys from entering into the ln2 ring, the fact that it's money-driven (and of course a bit of luck) and not skills driven 2 - people saying that someone should go in the Pro league because of really strong scores or little sponsorization, creating flames and bla bla... So, what I propose for the OC League: 1 - just set a frequency limit for cpu and vga 2 - people could post scores on OC league or PRO league, they decide at the moment of submission. Of course, if someone mainly in the PRO league wants to post in the OC league, the frequency limits will be active even for him Ok, but, how to set limits? This is the part on which we must work togheter. Here is what I got till now: - set fixed limits, for the entire life of that cpu or that vga. Pro: there's no need to recalculate from time to time, the frequency limits, according to new and better steppings coming out etc. Con: just look at Sandy Bridge... the first CPUs where topping at 4,9ghz, then appeared in the bioses the pll overvolting and the frequencies went up 'till 5,6 average and 6GHz for the best samples. - set variable frequency limits, to be modified automatically let's say every day, or every month. Pro: HWBot DB already calculates the average OC for a cpu with a specific cooling method. For 3770K is around 6300MHz as of today. It should be sufficient to apply this limit to the submissions, plus a 5% more frequency to not limit too much the competition but at the same time, to not let the super binned cpus take control of all. So 6300/0.95=6631MHz Max Con: Same as fixed limits solution Possible solution to variable limits: - when a new hardware is introduced, it always needs some weeks to be available everywhere on the market. So, let's use this disadvantage that some countries have in respect to others like for example USA, to solve that problem. We could open the submissions for that cpu, without points for the first month (except if you would want to post in the PRO league, as I already said it would be everybody's choice, without a big separation as it is today). After a month, the DB will be a bit populated and we can calculate the average freq to set as limit. Periodically, let's say after another month, we could check wether or not the average frequency is changed a lot. In case yes, new recalculation, and probably last recalculation for the rest of the life of that hw. In case not, then it's ok, no changes needed. A few marginal things I thought, as consequences to those modifications: - a lucky guy who has a great cpu, could post in the OC league within the limits, and also in the Pro league without limits, getting points for both of them. But, here is the interesting thing! You are a bin-addicted guy full of money without skills?! You'll probably get 0 points in the OC League since the other guys know how to better optimize and tweak etc... Same as per the PRO league, since if you don't have a really good hw and good tweaking skills, you'll get a not-so-good score to match up with the others.

If all you understood from my posts is that hwbot killed oc, then I'll need to delete and re-write everything probably

Brazil is truly an emerging power in the world, so I can easily believe that the OC scene is spreading in your country. But you will face the same problems in a few years (maybe, given that you're 150millions of people and growing, let's say in more than a few years ), it's the normal cycle of things. In italy, not all is completely dead, but we're close to that point. if 2 or 3 guys are still benching (pixy, sannino and spl) it doesn't mean that it's ok. Back in 2001 when I started, we were 400/500 guys, in many forums. Giorgioprimo, Leghorn, Giampa, AlexTA, Dimas, those guys were the pioneers in our country. Today, except for Giorgio, they're all gone, there has been no "generational change", if we could call it like that... and I well explained the motivations before. I'm still here only because for me oclocking is more than an hobby, I made friends, I achieved good scores with what I had in the past. But if I was to start ocking today, I really think I would drop everything. Anyway, I can't understand why it is so difficult to put rules and limitations, like in every sport... In addition, by applying the limitations I said, there will be no problems about who must go in the PRO league and who can stay in the normal league: andreyang wants to compete with everybody? ok, but at 6,6ghz, not 6,6 vs 7ghz. Everybody could post scores in each of the two leagues, by respecting the rules. A normal Joe would want to compete with his hardware in the PRO league? Perfect, fine, post a score in the pro league. It would be very simple, everybody (ok, not everybody, yo'll still need to know how to manage ln2, do vmods, and know how to not destroy something in the first bench session ) could compete with the same gears and the brands will still have their advertising/marketing place in the PRO league where everything is permitted, even videocards built specifically to crush a WR, never to be put on sale. That would be simple and fair, for us and for the brands, imho.

Your example speaks for itself: in F1 there are strict rules on what is and what is not permitted, there are engine limits, aerodynamics limits and so on... with optimizations, you can squeeze out a few more HPs, by having a better KERS, a better engine,but the differences aren't that bigger. In fact, in order to have a common level of performances between teams, a few years ago FIA decided to set those rules, because there was a team (Ferrari) which was winning everything since 10years, because they could have infinite budgets to do R&D, killing every other player in game, and the people interest in that sport was rapidly declining because there was no competition. And that is exactly what I'm saying, so thanks for your example. Ferrari wants to build an engine which can produce 2500hp? They surely can, and they can demonstrate it as a marketing claim, inviting journalists etc... but they can't use it in F1. Simple as that.

Exactly, sorry rbuass for me not being clear on that point And I never said nor thought that elmor, kingpin, shamino or other guys didn't earn the position they've got today. The problem is that, today, they're not helping the community to grow. It's not their fault, it's our fault as a community, to not have strict rules and limits. And, as I already said, if today there still is a community where we can speak and gather around a common interest, and the top guys can still do incredible results, in a year, or 2 or 3 years, what about all that? At that point, what will be the brands interest in supporting the OC by releasing custom VGAs, super mainboards etc, if nobody cares about overclocking? I'm talking about changing NOW what will be too late to to change "tomorrow", when all will be dead. Anyway, what's the other guys thought about all this? Me and mafio, we are truly the only 2 guys that see a big threat for the future of competitive oclocking? I hope not!

yeah, that's for sure The only thing on which we do not agree is the first "people with more access to resources was there, is there and will be there". I can't accept that: people was there and is there, yes. Is this a good thing for the companies, to use them as marketing? Yes. Is this good for the oc panorama? NO. So, if there's a problem, I'm used to wipe it out, maybe not in "bulldozer mode", but this thing has to be solved. And it's not a menace, it's the course we've all taken, and I would be truly disappointed is something like hwbot will disappear for those silly reasons. And another thing on which you're wrong is: do you remember 5 years back how the scene was? It was many more fragmented, but every single guy with patience, passion and a minimum of money, could aspire to reach top scores, because there were guys like hipro and many others that were clearly a step above the others, but they used to share the knowledge. how many times I followed hipro in his incredible vmod threads? And how many times I didn't have the balls to solder this bunnying tiny things because I didn't have the money to buy another one, in case of burning it? THAT was my limit, but with practice and a small amount of money, I could have reached the top spots because I had all the instruments needed. Nowadays, ask elmor to give you his secret bla bla software, or ask andreyang to buy a cpu at a time, wait 3 weeks, change it, try another one ecc, instead of binning 100pcs at a time. No they can't, because it's all marketing, not replicable by other guys, in no case, and for this reason, totally pointless. So, the question, prior to talk about how to organize rankings and bla bla, is: hwbot should become the center of all oc related activities from here to the future, or should become an advertising page for the brands? The way we're going, as of now and without changes, is the second one. The problem here is that there is a lack of "lateral thinking", we need to watch what's happening around us, comparing oc to gaming for instance. I can tell that in Italy, the oc-scene is almost gone, and everybody complains about the same points, the ones I brought there I'm not used to let the things go and complain without doing something to take it all to the attention of the bosses (richbastard, pieter and the mods, in our case), with some solution perhaps.