Please add Athlon 3000G (Raven Ridge)

[unityofsaints]

So far only Ryzen 3000G "Dali" is reflected in the database, I think it needs to be split into Dali and Raven Ridge, kind of like what happened with the Ryzen 1600:

It does not have a CPU World listing but part number on the IHS is YD3000C6M2OFB rather than YD3000C6M2OFH.

Edited November 17, 2023 by unityofsaints

[I.nfraR.ed]

  

16 hours ago, unityofsaints said:

So far only Ryzen 3000G "Dali" is reflected in the database, I think it needs to be split into Dali and Raven Ridge, kind of like what happened with the Ryzen 1600:

It does not have a CPU World listing but part number on the IHS is YD3000C6M2OFB rather than YD3000C6M2OFH.

 

These are complete mess. I can't really find a 100% reliable information for the CPUIDs of the different variants.

Sources seem to be contradictory.

https://github.com/InstLatx64/InstLatx64/blob/master/AuthenticAMD/AuthenticAMD0820F01_K17_Dali_CPUID.txt

The InstLatx64 dumps seem to have CPUID 820F01 (model 20h) as "Dali", 810F81 (model 18h) as "Picasso", 810F10 (model 11h) as "GreatHornedOwl", so basically the same as Picasso, but first revision (0), which is also the cpuid of "RavenRidge".

CPU World lists an additional CPUID for "Picasso" - the same 810F10.

3000G added as "Dali" doesn't really match the other "Dali" models, e.g. 3020e: https://valid.x86.fr/qsv6dz

3200G, for example, has the same cpuid as 3000G: https://hwbot.org/submission/5339568_naganannan_y_cruncher___pi_1b_ryzen_3_3200g_2min_23sec_517ms and is still displayed as Picasso by cpuz. 
I think "Dali" is used for mobile APUs only (FP5 socket).

Wikichip lists 3000G as an exception in the "Dali" subfamily

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/amd/cores/dali

PS: I guess it is accepted as an exception as an incorrect CPUID. One could think it is the the same as 3200G and 3400G, but with less cores. It is in fact "the same" as the RavenRidge counterpart. I've changed the detection in my software to reflect what cpuz displays.

IMO there should be only one 3000G category, thus "Dali" designation removed as both variants are Zen-based. I'm not 100% sure though, so maybe contact someone more knowleadgeble and who has access to NDA documents, perhaps Martin from hwinfo or Franck from cpuz?

Two different categories also make some sense as they have different CPUIDs, but in reality the APUs are not different performance wise, if I'm not wrong.

@unityofsaints's APU is basically a shamelessly rebranded 240GE.

Edited November 17, 2023 by I.nfraR.ed

[unityofsaints]

8 hours ago, I.nfraR.ed said:

  

 

These are complete mess. I can't really find a 100% reliable information for the CPUIDs of the different variants.

Sources seem to be contradictory.

https://github.com/InstLatx64/InstLatx64/blob/master/AuthenticAMD/AuthenticAMD0820F01_K17_Dali_CPUID.txt

The InstLatx64 dumps seem to have CPUID 820F01 (model 20h) as "Dali", 810F81 (model 18h) as "Picasso", 810F10 (model 11h) as "GreatHornedOwl", so basically the same as Picasso, but first revision (0), which is also the cpuid of "RavenRidge".

CPU World lists an additional CPUID for "Picasso" - the same 810F10.

3000G added as "Dali" doesn't really match the other "Dali" models, e.g. 3020e: https://valid.x86.fr/qsv6dz

3200G, for example, has the same cpuid as 3000G: https://hwbot.org/submission/5339568_naganannan_y_cruncher___pi_1b_ryzen_3_3200g_2min_23sec_517ms and is still displayed as Picasso by cpuz. 
I think "Dali" is used for mobile APUs only (FP5 socket).

Wikichip lists 3000G as an exception in the "Dali" subfamily

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/amd/cores/dali

PS: I guess it is accepted as an exception as an incorrect CPUID. One could think it is the the same as 3200G and 3400G, but with less cores. It is in fact "the same" as the RavenRidge counterpart. I've changed the detection in my software to reflect what cpuz displays.

IMO there should be only one 3000G category, thus "Dali" designation removed as both variants are Zen-based. I'm not 100% sure though, so maybe contact someone more knowleadgeble and who has access to NDA documents, perhaps Martin from hwinfo or Franck from cpuz?

Two different categories also make some sense as they have different CPUIDs, but in reality the APUs are not different performance wise, if I'm not wrong.

@unityofsaints's APU is basically a shamelessly rebranded 240GE.

I have both a YD3000C6M2OFB and a YD3000C6M2OFH on hand. I can't speak about any other variants but those two chips are both physically distinct (different model string on the IHS) and distinct CPUID-wise (detected differently in CPU-Z). Surely that warrants separate entries in the HWBot DB? I can provide valid files etc. if that helps clear anything up.

Edited November 18, 2023 by unityofsaints

[I.nfraR.ed]

M and Q (C3 and C2 steppings) revisions of K10 cpus are not in separate categories, while there's a difference in clock potential. On the other hand, 1600 and 1600AF are in separate categories. So both options are sensible.

In "our" case with the 3000G there's no difference in specs, they are basically the same core, "Dali" being a newer stepping B1 and carrying a cpuid of "Picasso". It's messed up. But on the other hand, if there's any difference in performance, I believe it is insignificant. It's still a RavenRidge "revision". Since there's a "Dali" category already, perhaps the easiest one is to create an additional 3000G "RavenRidge" one.

If I had to decide, I'd remove "Dali" and use just one category, but I can see the other option similarly valid.

PS: 1600 and 1600AF makes more sense as there's a significant difference between Zen and Zen+, while there isn't between those 2 3000G. It would have been the same if "Dali" was indeed "Picasso" as the cpuid dictates.

I don't know if AMD did it on purpose, but it's misleading.

Do you know if, e.g. GPU clocks are different or anything else? 

Edited November 18, 2023 by I.nfraR.ed

[unityofsaints]

5 hours ago, I.nfraR.ed said:

M and Q (C3 and C2 steppings) revisions of K10 cpus are not in separate categories, while there's a difference in clock potential. On the other hand, 1600 and 1600AF are in separate categories. So both options are sensible.

In "our" case with the 3000G there's no difference in specs, they are basically the same core, "Dali" being a newer stepping B1 and carrying a cpuid of "Picasso". It's messed up. But on the other hand, if there's any difference in performance, I believe it is insignificant. It's still a RavenRidge "revision". Since there's a "Dali" category already, perhaps the easiest one is to create an additional 3000G "RavenRidge" one.

If I had to decide, I'd remove "Dali" and use just one category, but I can see the other option similarly valid.

PS: 1600 and 1600AF makes more sense as there's a significant difference between Zen and Zen+, while there isn't between those 2 3000G. It would have been the same if "Dali" was indeed "Picasso" as the cpuid dictates.

I don't know if AMD did it on purpose, but it's misleading.

Do you know if, e.g. GPU clocks are different or anything else? 

At the end of the day the way the DB is structured, every CPU is associated with a core and in this case it's currently Dali. I'm not claiming that there is anything drastically different between the two revisions, quite the opposite, but in order to make hwbot as noob-friendly as possible and to avoid confusion I still think it would make sense to have two different categories. It's not easy to know where to sub a score when CPU-Z tells you Raven Ridge but the only 3000G you can find in the DB is a Dali...

Stock clocks are not different if that's what you're asking, for OC capabilities I can't say anything meaningful because I only have one chip of each type.

Edited November 18, 2023 by unityofsaints

[Strunkenbold]

On 11/18/2023 at 6:26 AM, unityofsaints said:

At the end of the day the way the DB is structured, every CPU is associated with a core and in this case it's currently Dali. I'm not claiming that there is anything drastically different between the two revisions, quite the opposite, but in order to make hwbot as noob-friendly as possible and to avoid confusion I still think it would make sense to have two different categories. It's not easy to know where to sub a score when CPU-Z tells you Raven Ridge but the only 3000G you can find in the DB is a Dali...

Stock clocks are not different if that's what you're asking, for OC capabilities I can't say anything meaningful because I only have one chip of each type.

Its correct, in this cases we make new categories. However things look strange here. 

Initially released, this CPU was branded by AMD as Picasso but 14nm on the spec page. But die shots reveal, it couldnt be Raven Ridge (14nm). Newer versions of CPU-Z now corrected them to Dali. Also Picasso was 12nm.

However news indicate, that AMD updated the core from Raven Ridge to Dali. https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-has-a-new-box-for-its-14nm-2-core-athlon-3000g-desktop-cpu

Now the confusion is complete, as 3000G was actually Dali from begin, or not?  Judging from submissions in our db, they didnt changed the core just in the last days...

I guess only IHS removal could help here if really a new core is under the hood.

edit: I remember I wrote Franck in 2020 to change the displayed core in CPU-Z:

Quote

Hey Franck,

 

thx for answering me. We have here is a quite interesting case I would say ?

 

AMD says 14nm: https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-athlon-3000g

Delidding 3000G shows DALI Die: https://twitter.com/momomo_us/status/1199354469227487232

also 3200U is DALI: https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/dkvhza/decided_to_repaste_my_ryzen_3_3200u_surprised_how/

 

All share the same ID.
Even if AMD thinks this guy is more a Picasso than a Raven Ridge, it doesnt use their die. Its something new. I would say its DALI but Linux Code also has something named Raven2 and Pollock. 

 

List of Dali Core CPUs, or a least CPUs which are 14nm according to AMD website:

 

Athlon Silver 3050GE

Athlon Silver 3050U

3015e

3020e

Athlon Gold 3150U

Athlon Silver 3050e

Ryzen 3 3250U

Athlon 3000G

Athlon 300GE

Athlon 300U

Athlon 320GE

Ryzen 3 3200U

 

Do we have an idea how to identify them in CPU-Z?

 

TIA

 

BR,

Greg

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Strunkenbold

[I.nfraR.ed]

I wonder if there's a real Picasso 3000G out there, you wouldn't know as the CPUID is always the one of Picasso and tools identify it based on the cpuid - family, model and revision. The rest, like the fab process, is displayed based on this information. For 3000G it is a manual "override" as the cpuid masks it as a Picasso. It's shady practice from AMD side anyway.

I've recently read it got a refresh of the box package.

From what I know Dali is Raven Ridge 2, or a Raven Ridge refresh, basically a new stepping, I think.

The same problem might exists for some of the rest of the APUs in your list.

Edited November 20, 2023 by I.nfraR.ed

[Strunkenbold]

The point is, does AMD fool us with their CPU-ID again or is it this time Raven Ridge for real (thus qualify for a new category)?

In 2019 german Computerbase already revealed that C6M20FH was used for Athlon 300GE. AMD said this CPU is 12nm, so everybody thought it is Picasso. They still say that for the PRO part: https://www.amd.com/de/product/8896

However the Athlon 300 non-pro part is Dali: https://www.amd.com/en/product/8986

I doubt that there are any physical difference between those parts.

3000G is still Picasso according to AMD and also C6M20FH, how can that be?: https://www.amd.com/en/product/8956

Back to the 3000G topic: I just went through some of the subs in our db: It dont find any ID other than Model 8 Ext. Model 18. So @unityofsaints is your CPU new? If so, the news from videocardz must be wrong. AMD didnt update the core of 3000G from Dali to Raven Ridge, they actually downgraded it.

edit:

This seems to be all Dali CPUs. However some are still marked as Picasso. Anyway I will need to go through this list by myself and fix some db elements.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Strunkenbold

[unityofsaints]

7 hours ago, Strunkenbold said:

The point is, does AMD fool us with their CPU-ID again or is it this time Raven Ridge for real (thus qualify for a new category)?

In 2019 german Computerbase already revealed that C6M20FH was used for Athlon 300GE. AMD said this CPU is 12nm, so everybody thought it is Picasso. They still say that for the PRO part: https://www.amd.com/de/product/8896

However the Athlon 300 non-pro part is Dali: https://www.amd.com/en/product/8986

I doubt that there are any physical difference between those parts.

3000G is still Picasso according to AMD and also C6M20FH, how can that be?: https://www.amd.com/en/product/8956

Back to the 3000G topic: I just went through some of the subs in our db: It dont find any ID other than Model 8 Ext. Model 18. So @unityofsaints is your CPU new? If so, the news from videocardz must be wrong. AMD didnt update the core of 3000G from Dali to Raven Ridge, they actually downgraded it.

edit:

This seems to be all Dali CPUs. However some are still marked as Picasso. Anyway I will need to go through this list by myself and fix some db elements.

I am happy to carry out tests to prove or disprove this, just let me know what I need to do.

[Strunkenbold]

Well if you delidd it, you should find a Raven Ridge core under IHS if its faked its still a Dali core.

[unityofsaints]

2 hours ago, Strunkenbold said:

Well if you delidd it, you should find a Raven Ridge core under IHS if its faked its still a Dali core.

I will do this for sure. Core shape is different for Raven Ridge? Sorry I just have no clue about this stuff.

[I.nfraR.ed]

I thought they are the same and there's no visual way to distinguish the crystals, so delidding would be pointless?

[unityofsaints]

According to @Bilko, this is Raven Ridge:

... and this is Dali:

[I.nfraR.ed]

I guess so, it seems to be a new die and has maximum of 2 cores, where Raven Ridge complex contains 4 cores and if yours is RavenRidge then it should have 2 cores disabled, but the full die.

https://www.facebook.com/NkdHardware/posts/pfbid02QT9BaH9a8xA6YXvGbKpnjGZk1tDQVVHFsdY2A6WXqXLdj3o8fruVVPKu9ZEqff6dl

Edited November 22, 2023 by I.nfraR.ed

[Strunkenbold]

Dali is a native 2 core design and probably a step between Raven Ridge and Picasso. Otherwise AMD wouldnt be so confused by themselves with their product specifications. It was before introduced as Banded Kestrel for Embedded CPUs: