K404 Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Can the 7800GT have an extra class added for the 512MB cards? The RAM is significantly better on them so gets an advantage over the 256MB cards. Plenty other cards with extra categories for different RAM volumes where the difference is smaller. Yes, I have a vested interest in this one as Im ranked with the 7800GT (256) and am being beaten by some 512MB scores Cheers, K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 Theres a higher RAM bin on the 512MB cards, the 256MB doesnt stand a hope in hell against it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S_A_V Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Yes, Gainward 7800GT BLISS "Goes like hell" 512M (CardExpert VendorID on GPUZ) cards are faster than reference 7800GT cards. But it is only because they have faster memory (1300MHz default vs 1000MHz on reference cards). Memory size does not matter. In many other categories we have the same situation - better results are taken with "overclocked" non-reference cards with better specs than reference cards (GeForce 8600GT with 1.0-ns/2000MHz memory, for example). It is not the reason to split category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 The higher speed RAM is on all 7800GT 512MB,so there is a clear and consistent difference. If you buy a 7800GT 512MB it will perform better. SAV I think your reasoning makes no sense. Why are there separate categories for the 7800GTX 512MB? The 7900GS and 7900GT 512MB cards? 8800GT 256, 512MB and 1GB cards etc etc etc K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartx Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 I think that K404 has a point here. 1500MHz on memory isn't possible on 1ns chips, I've got this card also and something like 1370MHz is max. Most 7800GT cards are reference desing, so probably all have 1ns memory, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S_A_V Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 (edited) The higher speed RAM is on all 7800GT 512MB,so there is a clear and consistent difference. How many vendors released 7800GT 512MB? Gainward, Palit, CardExpert, etc.? They are all the same. Different brands, same manufacturer. Why are there separate categories for the 7800GTX 512MB? 7800GTX 256MB and 7800GTX 512MB is another story. They was totally different - PCB design, memory, cooling. 7800GTX 512MB officially exist as nvidia reference card. 7800GT 512MB was initiative from Gainward. The 7900GS and 7900GT 512MB cards? 8800GT 256, 512MB and 1GB cards etc etc etc Everyone can make mistakes. Even hardware moderators at hwbot. 3dmarks and aquamark3 not use more than 256Mb video memory. Edited April 29, 2009 by S_A_V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 How many vendors released 7800GT 512MB? Gainward, Palit, CardExpert, etc.? They are all the same. Different brands, same manufacturer. How many vendors released the rarer 1GB versions of popular cards that have their own category on HWB? Realistically...the same ones, but there is still distinction. 7800GTX 256MB and 7800GTX 512MB is another story. They was totally different - PCB design, memory, cooling. Mainly wrong. The RAM volume and RAM placement/routing is the only difference. The fundamental PCB, PWM and cooling are the same. There are 7800GTX 256MB cards with the 2-slot cooler...classing cards by cooling is not worth discussing 7800GTX 512MB officially exist as nvidia reference card. 7800GT 512MB was initiative from Gainward. Irrelevant. Same arguement as the first comment I answered Everyone can make mistakes. Even hardware moderators at hwbot.3dmarks and aquamark3 not use more than 256Mb video memory. Not sure what you are getting at here. If you think there should only be one category per card then a lot.. A LOT of categories need to go. The 7800GT example is one thats been missed according to HWB category separation. To say the situation should not be changed means that a lot of other things need to go to keep HWBs approach consistent. We could extend the idea of not caring about memory size...lets group by a cards eqipment and tech size: 7900GT 256MB, 7900GT 512MB, 7900GTX, 7900GT0, 7950GT (which also has 256MB and 512MB versions which arent separated on HWB)...should we lump them all into one category seeing as the RAM volumes and PCB designs are the only difference worth discussing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S_A_V Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 There are 7800GTX 256MB cards with the 2-slot cooler Reference 7800GTX 256MB - 1.6-ns mem. Reference 7800GTX 512MB - 1.1-ns mem. Not sure what you are getting at here. If you think there should only be one category per card then a lot.. A LOT of categories need to go. No. I think videocards can be separated by memory type (ddr-2-3-4-5) or even bus width (64-128-256), but not by memory size. Especially ones with more than 256Mb! Why they must be separated if they performs the same in benchmarks? Just because we (I have results on 7800GT 256Mb too) got beaten by the owner of better card (Gainward Bliss)? am being beaten by some 512MB scores Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 (edited) I think you're proving my point. The 7800GT 512MB cards ALL have a higher spec RAM bin in the same way as the 7800GTX 256MB Vs 512MB. Therefore its not really fair to compare the two side by side. The stock (RAM) speed of the GT 512MB is pretty much the same as the max OC of the GT 256MB. Do you want no separation of cards based on performance clock to clock, or at stock speeds or what? There are too many examples I could give against your arguement. This isnt a case of a lucky card. ANY 512MB 7800GT will perform better. Its clear and defineable, not just luck of the draw like good or crap RAM on an 8800GT 512MB for example. Edited April 29, 2009 by K404 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S_A_V Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 The 7800GT 512MB cards ALL have a higher spec RAM... ANY 512MB 7800GT will perform better. Only Gainward Bliss 7800GT 512Mb Goes Like Hell (Part number = NE/7800TXT352-PM8070-GLH) with 1.4-ns memory clocked to 1300MHz by default: http://www.3dnews.ru/video/gainward_7800gt_512/print/ Palit 7800GT 512Mb with 1000MHz default memory clock not better than reference 256Mb cards: http://www.nix.ru/autocatalog/svga_nvidia/PCIE_DDR_GeForce_7800GT_DualDVI_SLI_47480.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 Ah. ok, that does things slightly but overall I think my point should stick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S_A_V Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 (edited) Anyway Gainward Bliss model not so much better then reference 7800GT cards. Better memory ICs but worse GPU PMW. Try to set 2.0V or higher Vgpu on Palit/Gainward 7800GT/6800GS and you will see flying mosfets with firework special effects Reference 7800GT cards can be benched with 2.0V Vgpu and will survive if cooling is good enough. That is why we got beaten only in 3dmark01 and AM3 but not in 3dmark03/05. Edited April 29, 2009 by S_A_V Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 watercooling is enough My runs were at 2.05V but the RAM is the bottleneck I reckon so the extra MHz of a GLH do real damage in 3D01, 03 and AM3. [OT] I cant remember my 01 setup, might have been scrappy but I didnt think Mr Alibabar would beat me with so much less on the CPU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S_A_V Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Yeah, they do real damage It was my Palit 6800GS based on the same PCB as any other Palit/Gainward 7800GT/6800GS including Gainward Bliss 7800GT 512Mb GLH. Vgpu was not so big - around 1.7V. PMW just can't handle current and burn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 Heres one for you...you've spent a lot of time with the 7900GS, GT, 7950GT PCBs? Have you had a lot of trouble with vGDDR? I've killed 7 cards (6 instantly) from attempting above stock voltages on the RAM. 3 cards did alright- same PCB design. Its been the bane of my benching life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knopflerbruce Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 I always wonder... why can't these cards just be added? Then we have no arguing about unfair scores like this, and more people will bench their cards in more categories. Why was 2900pro/xt separated, btw? Same cards:p 7900gto vs gtx?;)9800gtx vs 9800gtx+? Just wonder what's so different there from this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted April 30, 2009 Author Share Posted April 30, 2009 Ideally the 9800GTX and GTX+ are on different tech nodes, same as 9800GT Vs 8800GT but some + cards are shipped with older cores. I've yet to have a 9800GT with a 55nm core.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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