Massman

You are already in the right subforum. Quick, make a thread about it before someone else does!

Yes. Wouldn't you like everyone to be more like Dejo and his daughter? Sacrificing a bit of their own happiness so others won't have to complain about what they do . It's really nice to see that people are willing to put aside their own wishes and compromise just a tiny bit so others can be (just a tiny bit) happier, even if all others are not doing it.

Yes. For the same reason I look away when my young nephew takes two cookies instead of the one his mother allowed.

This is what you wrote earlier. One of the first set of posts in this thread. I understood from this post that I (or any other HWBOT moderator) had not been clear enough about our motivation and argumentation. I actually felt sorry, because the last thing I wanted to do was to accuse you of cheating. After this post, however, I figured we were both convinced that it would be in the community's best interest to prevent accusations coming up. I also talked about this with IMOG in PM and after reading his reply, I was convinced we were all on the same page: So, I'm pretty amazed that this thread took a wild spin like this. In all honesty, I am really sad that this eventually become such a big topic. I'm sincerely sorry about this. This particular situation is an issue because of the limitations of the current HWBOT system (combined with the of the internet), so pretty much self-inflicted. I really wish there was a way to have both accounts contribute to the same team without having other users complain about it, but with this revision it's not possible.

A lot more accusations are aired anonymously than there are in public. I would have found it incredibly weird if now someone would raise their hand and say 'I'. It's awesome how people think HWBOT's decisions are taken by me and me only. I should find a way to monetize that. Well, 5 staff members posted their opinion in the thread. 4 of them said 'no way'. I had the pleasure of the first contact, then another moderator (one who felt even stronger about this than myself) did the second series of PMs. //off to demand one of my slaves to give me a backrub.

Like I said to Gautam: that's actually just Sandy Bridge. Because of the little flexibility of the platform (BCLK-wise as well as hard walls) I wouldn't be shocked if you could fine a 'link' between 75% of the scores out there. In fact, you should try to find all those links and publish an article titled "Someone is selling scores again". And I'm convinced people would find the theory plausible.

Ironically, we believe in making sure the community does not have to go through a lot of drama. Therefore, providing a dozen of suggestions to overcome Dejo's daughter having to deal with cheating-accusations is what be believe is what's right. In fact, the ratio 'solutions we are okay with' versus 'solutions we'd rather not have' is link 10/1 for HWBOT and 1/10 for (the entire team of) OCF apparently. Seriously, it's just one situation we're not comfortable with. Just one. Just one. Please select any of the other possibilities. Points, account, whatnotall ...

I was notified by Gautam that was indeed funny. That being said, I have to admit that Thomas is my father and I'm only 12-years old as well (some say I'm promising though). All jokes aside, it's not possible that Thomas' score is mine because I have awesomely better efficiency than him. That 13.58s of him is simply super-slow ... I wouldn't even dare to make a screenshot of that score.

It's the difference between having a gun, blood on your shirt and a long-standing rivalery with the dead person lying next to you in the dark alley ... and actually making the kill. Exactly, what happened to them? Why is it not possible for Dejo to compromise? Why does it have to be AND account AND points AND the same team? Why is it 'only this way' or 'still only this way'? Why is it so difficult to respect that it's possible other people might be suspicious (= bad feelings) about this account and just find a way for them not to be suspicious (= no bad feelings)?

Yes, you have a valid point. I fully agree that's the way it should be. As I mentioned earlier, when I first read that Dejo and his daughter were bonding over this hobby, I smiled ear to ear. I think it's awesome and absolutely wish more people would get have this with family and friends. BUT! Every day I have to face HWBOT/internet reality. Although I absolutely do not like myself asking for his daughter to not bench for points, something I think i've proven by given a dozen of alternative ways for Dejo and his daughter to bond over this hobby, I have to take into account that a large majority of the HWBOT community might not understand this particular situation. Not the daughter benching, but the team getting a boost in points by an account that can easily be perceived as 'double account to generate extra points'. I would be crushed to find out Dejo's daughter would have to face the cheating accusations of people who are unaware of the situation at home. But, from years of HWBOT experience, I know there would be a tipping point when the daughter account would generate so much points people would start to complain in public. So, that's why we've suggested all the alternatives. Actually, when Dejo ignored my PM and just created the account anyway, we closed our eyes for a while as the account was not really generating lots of points. When the first set of scores came in, we asked Dejo what's up, got a 'reasonable' explanation and, again, closed our eyes assuming this was just a one-time thing. Today, that account is generating 300+ points ... which is quite a lot. I might be out of line here, but I guess if the daughter's account would just have low-end hardware, none of which also in Dejo's account and reasonably low total score, it would've been under the radar for sure. Like I said, we closed eyes twice. We undertook several more attempts to solve this matter quietly and another moderator than myself tried to explain the situation and give some suggestions to solve the issue. Not to 'be corrupt', but just so his daughter could enjoy all the benching and other community members would not be upset about this 'weird' account generating a significant amount of points for the team. We don't accuse anyone (if we did, the account would've been banned), we don't try to punish anyone, all we want to forsee problems in (hwbot's) reality and address them before they occur.

For the record, I once again want to say that no one at HWBOT thinks Dejo is cheating. We also believe he is honest and up front. All we ask for is for him to take into account the other community members and how they might perceive this action. Moderating at HWBOT isn't exact science. Sadly enough, we don't have the support of a scientific research team to find fingerprints or dna-evidence. It's a pity, would've really loved to see an episode of 'CSI The Bot'.

Highly philosophical. First of all, the decision is right. Therefore, it wouldn't make anything right. Secondly, I hope October does not get the impression that the fun in overclocking is only defined by the amount of points you gather or can contribute to a team. In fact, I would be the first in line to scream that overclocking is fun regardless of the points that can be earned at hwbot! Perhaps this might even be a blessing in disguise! Instead of October learning that overclocking (metaphore for 'life') can only be enjoyed when receiving points (metaphore for 'money'), she can learn it can also be enjoyed when doing it with friends (metaphore for 'friends'). Or, alternatively, she can have her own account, with points (so compete against her father) but don't contribute to the team. Or, father and daughter can work together to boost the team points. I was being ironic. (shouts at sky) "damn you internet"

Oh, is that how it is? Cool, so no more complaints of people accusing others of cheating, sharing hardware and sharing scores? Yeey! The future of HWBOT staff looks so bright!

Without looking at the rankings, which of these two scores is done by 'Dejo's daughter' ?

The staff's stance on this is pretty unanimous/ Is Dejo prepared to give up his account's points so his daughter can be with OCF? That's also fine.

That's very wrong reasoning. What you're saying is: "as long as we're up front, we can do what we want". Dejo asked hwbot what our stance was, we made clear it would be considered faul play, and he did what he wanted anyway. It's not because it's 'obvious' it's suddenly okay again. Again, we are not punishing anyone. It's not an accusation of cheating. It's not about guilt or anything like that. In fact, all this was just because hwbot asked if it was possible to take other community members into consideration. Apparently that is not possible

No ... it's not. Seriously, we are all fine with everything besides the two accounts generating points for the same team. And that for very simple, logic reasons. Pick any other combination of - allowed to bench: yes/no - have own account: yes/no - have points: yes/no - be in a team: yes/no Any other combination is just fine, no problem. Just the one that doesn't generate team points ... Why are those team points so important?

Dejo asked me via PM if it would be okay to create an account for his daughter. I said, back then, the same I'm saying here. After my PM was sent, I heard back nothing and the account was created anyway. After a while, these two scores were submit: - http://hwbot.org/community/submission/2105213_dejo_3dmark03_geforce_gtx_480_122636_marks - http://hwbot.org/community/submission/2105222_dejos_daughter_3dmark03_geforce_gtx_480_120286_marks I'm quite sure our mod-alerts would've gone off even without the clear 'dejos daughter' name. I would really hope this is not going to turn into a big deal. I'm kinda losing hope right now, though.

Fine - thread's open again. Better to have a single 'discussion' here than scattered all over the interweb. Anyway, just found out even more family joined the team: - "Massman's grand-mother" - "Massman's nephew" - "Massman's long lost evil twin brother" - "Massman's adopted brother" - "Massman's sugerdaddy" - "Massman's uncle" - "Massman's secret girlfriend #3"

No. She can bench, she can have an account, she can have points she can have a team ("OCForums Rookies", "OCForums New Gen", ...). The only thing that is not done is for this 12-year old girl's account to contribute to the same team as her father's account. Decision taken, case closed, thread closed.

There's a difference between two family members benching competely different hardware on different locations and a 12-year old girl getting help from her father taking her first steps in the world of overclocking in the same house. -sigh- Seriously ... I mean, seriously??? Are you not getting the problem? Just looking for that +300p team point boost? No matter what? //edit: New members joined my team today, here's the list: - "Massman's father" - "Massman's brother" - "Massman's sister" - "Massman's brother-in-law" - "Massman's nephew" - "Massman's girlfriend" - "Massman's secret girlfriend #2" - "Massman's wife in Holland" - "Massman's wife in France" - "Massman's great-grand-father" - "Massman's 6y old niece" - "Massman's 13y old niece" - "Massman's aunt" They are just getting into the game, but they all look very promising. I hope one day they will be in the top-20!

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or funny. I'm just amazed that the different in this thread is apparently a single line in the rules defining this specific situation. As you say: if it would be explicitly disallowed in the rules, you'd have no issue with this at all. And, yes, you have a valid point of critic. It's also a bit unfair to classify my posts as proof that I'm just too stubborn. I'm just mindblown by the way you look at this discussion as I never considered this to be something about innocence/guilt. This is just a difficult situation that is not defined in the rules (unless you think everything is allowed unless it's disallowed). The outcome of this discussion is about this: 300 team points. It's not about the daughter being allowed to bench, or her being allowed to have an account, or her being allowed to join a team. It's about one very specific combination: daughter + account + points + ocforums team. Any of the other combinations (eg: no points, a separate team, a joined account, ...) are not a problem. You really don't understand why we ask to consider the other community members as well as the staff?

So, everything is fine if the rule "father and daughter can only bench under one account" would be added? Would that avoid continuing this discussion?

Don't you understand that this is NOT about: - rules - guilt - innocence - punishment - investigation What 'investigation' was there? What proof? What anything??? (fyi: no proof was asked and no proof was provided. I don't understand what you are trying to discuss at all) but it is about: - taking others into consideration Is it so hard to sacrifice a bit of your own others to have a easier life? Why does it absolutely HAVE to be 'points added to team total'?

Actually, for someone who doesn't know HWBOT, the front-page is very confusing. Too much information in one place. I's not uncommon for webdevelopers to introduce a new frontpage design together with the significant upgrade. There are some completely new features as well, which means we had to get some new designs anyway. Better to do it all at once rather than pasting bits and pieces together hoping it looks somewhat okay.