Rauf
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Posts posted by Rauf
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Lol, what would limit to 100.00000000 bclk help. It would still be a waiting game for some to see when the lowest bclk variance hits 100.00...
And we would probably see an upswing with vendor skinned cpu-z as they only show one decimal.
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Good to see the scores here as well!
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It's a bit similar, but evolved. Challenger is like an ordinary competition but without prizes. You bench 5 stages for maximum 50 points. Of course it's not going to attract the top guys who can improve their points by 100-150 in one single benchmark. I want to compete with the best or else there is no motivation.
My idea is to get rid of the current ranking and replace it with the seasonal leagues. It has many advantages in my book:
It is easier to get into. Seriously who has the time and interest nowadays to build a profile for years, collecting rare old hardware that you may or may not find the time to bench in the future. We can all agree that this is a hobby, not a profession. But the way the rankings work here requires you to work full time to keep up. We need to get it down to a hobby level amount of time.
With a longer season and more stages (benchmarks) it will be worth it to invest in the hw needed. Who invests in the hw needed to be truly competitive in ch div 1? 6950X and Titan XP for maximum 50 points...
We can decide on hw limitations which solves the problems of ultra expensive benching. My idea would be skylake/haswell/ivy (non -E) + non titan gpus. The non hedt-platforms are the most popular both here at hwbot and with the rest of the world. But gpus would allow for the 980 ti and 1080/ti because they are the gpus which are designed for extreme overclocking. And also they are quite popular with the gamers etc.
It would not turn into a sandbagging contest, I have a clever way to make sure you push from the start until the end.
We of course still have the wr/global/hw rankings. Keep the hw-league if you like for the ones that like that. People who don't want to compete in the seasonal leugues can still bench the same way they do today for a few good global positions.
Maybe I will add more to the list but my train is arriving now
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Ok, I never asked anyone from MSI so I don't know. But next time ask us, you'll be surprised how helpful everyone is, especially considering it's an contest.
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Ok, so the competition is over. For those who wonder how to OC i3 on LN2 on XPower there are a few tricks. First of all is to set a good base profile which you can boot at around -120C. Set both mem and CPU as high as you can. Look down timings on memory, and especially RTL and IOL. Set RTL a little higher or you will reach memory limit quickly while overclocking in OS. I used 52/53 RTL and the corresponding 8/8 IOL for 2000+ memory. Once you have booted your base profile at -120, increase bclk, go down to -170 or whatever your board/CPU can handle and reboot. The key is to not change settings so much that the board needs to do full reset. A "light" reset should be able to boot at around -170.
Next thing to consider is memory on XPower. XPower eats SA-volts for breakfast. Mine scaled to 1.50V. Also, like I said before, set higher RTL/IOL than on 2 dimm boards or you will be limited at around 2000 C12.
If you suffer from low efficiency in Geekbench, remember to turn on AES instructions, as they are off by default on MSI XOC bioses.
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Thanks MSI for a good contest, but sad it was the last one.
Regarding the help from "inhouse benchers": the vendors want their products to shine of course, so it's natural they help. As long as they help everyone the same it's no problem.
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Thanks!
No it wasn't easy on this board, but I wanted to push as much as possible because I had to make sure I won this stage.
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Points for third stage seem bugged.
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It's a little funny that hwbot also wants to force the best enthusiasts into extreme league. And once they are there they have nothing. Right nvidiaforever2?
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On the note of people asking about how much FPS you got: you want to change what you like doing because someone else doesn't understand the value?
I think overclockers should stop listening to the people who downplay what we enjoy just because 'gaming' happens to be the new hottie in town. The roadmaps for overclocking stretches beyond 2020, so it's not going away. Overclocking is not gaming; it's something different. What we (people who are passionate about overclocking) need to figure out is how to get the 'gamers' to understand why it's important to pay attention to performance figures like 3DMark and get more people curious/interested/fascinated with the idea of performance tuning. That will only work if we are confident about what we love and not question the legitimacy of this hobby every time someone doesn't value it.
Just my 2c
It's not about selling out or following the "new hottie". It's about being part of something that has the ability to evolve and turn into something better. Something that thrives. But most importantly: something that is meaningful in the long run.
There is nothing left for competitive XOC, who is responsible for this if not hwbot? Who has not been able to adapt and evolve to not only save our "beloved hobby" from dying, but also not managed to turn it into the e-sport you promote it as. And still you want everything to stay the same. It's the world that should learn to appreciate hwbot.
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Not aimed at you, just would like to hear from the mods. They have removed scores in the past...
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How about bugged scores in XTU? How will you decide the slightly bugged ones like you did in the low clock challenge?
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To re-iterate a point, though... i'm sometimes surprised that people aren't mad about mental Xeon setups taking most of the WR points.... are people ok with it because they already have a path to avoid going up against them?
Of course it's stupid. I would say remove all WR points, CPU and GPU alike. It's too much about free win by emptying your pockets, or benching on hw borrowed from your work. But WR points are only accessible to like 1% of the users anyway. So I guess most don't see them as a problem that affects them.
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Following the discussion in: “How to fix the rankings
†(http://forum.hwbot.org/showthread.php?t=160448) and “Adjustment for Global Points - Work in progress†http://forum.hwbot.org/showthread.php?t=150289Also considering things that have happened in the last few months; lot's of people have quit, MSI has scrapped all overclocking programs, the feeling that OC'ing (at hwbot) in general is struggling, fewer vendor competitions, rules are complicated or unclear, buggy benchmarks, ultra-expensive hw, etc…
I've come to the realization that the upcoming hwbot Revision 7 is meaningless, it won't do anything to improve or save overclocking. It's just more of the same, with small tweaks here and there to improve points distribution and reduce server load. What I believe is necessary is a total rework of how we compete at hwbot. Scrap the global points system. Keep the hw-points for those who want to pursue those, it still has a great value for many. WR's and GFP's will still have their glory, but it will not necessarily contribute to your ranking. What I would like to see is the following:
- Do seasonal rankings instead of the eternal ranking system we have now. Divide into leagues based on your performance. Move up and down in the leagues between seasons. Don't divide by cooling. If you do well in aircooling you will be moved up to a higher league. Get better cooling or don't do so well. Then we won't have the problem of "ambient" watercooled cpus running 1.7 volts and a load temp of 35C. The seasonal rankings have a defined start and end time. There will be more action. It’s the way every other sport works. We need to address sandbagging of course or it will not be very fun, but it is not an impossible problem to solve, I have an idea.
- The leagues can have a set number of benchmarks which are the only ones that gives points (in the leagues). The benchmarks can change from season to season. There can be hw-limits. But keep it simple, just anything below the level of xxx. Vendors can provide prizes if they like, if not we will compete for eternal glory
But absolutely no vendor limitations!- Never have benchmarks which produce bugged scores in competitions or leagues. Also move away from screenshots. Move to benchmarks which have online validation. I’m so tired of rules, rules, rules. They are so complicated that even pros make mistakes. Keep it simple to make it accessible for everyone, especially the gamers.
- Adapt to the present and the future. PC gaming is stronger than ever and will continue to grow. Move to game benchmarks instead of synthetic ones. Once when I was benching on LN2 some guy got interested and asked me how many FPS I got. I said that it was an irrelevant question and what mattered was how many 3Dmark points I got. But then I got to thinking, wasn’t it the right question after all? Back when OC’ing started it was all about getting more FPS. That is what really matters if we want to take overclocking back to its glory.
- etc…
There are tons of changes I would like to see, but the general idea is to move to leagues instead of one eternal ranking. Keep everything simple to make it accessible. Simple verification and hw-limits which reflect the hw most people (gamers) own anyway. Move to relevant benchmarks instead of super-synthetic ones.
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With all due respect, you've been here what, a month? While I appreciate your enthusiasm, you're wasting your time trying to re-invent the wheel here.
BTW, don't underestimate the power of the 2 pointers. The #1 team in the world is built on them and old hardware, so don't say it's impossible or not worth it. Worth is what you put into it, not what you have.
Keep it fun and affordable to you. You'll enjoy the hobby more.
Don't worry about those stinkin worthless points.
Another "I wan't everything to stay the way it is" post without any valid arguments...
And also another "just do what is fun". It's an argument that is meant to disarm any idea of improvement in a way that puts blame on the other person because he will feel like he is stealing the fun away from others. What you do not consider is that many people want something more. By refusing all changes YOU take the fun part away from those people. "Just do what is fun" is not a valid argument. It's an argument for those who do not care.
Also, I think we should listen more to the new people around here. Being disrespectful to someone and making him feel like his thoughts do not matter just because he is new (once again without any argument other than you're new, so you're wrong) is not the right thing to do in my book. But I also feel that this stale old community needs to listen to newcomers because they are the future, and they have an open mind as to how things should work. A mind that is not clouded by how things always have been, or that sees only problems with every change.
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Follow asus guide. Remember to press f5 and choose mps multiprocessor if bios don't have acpi. Don't know if xpower has working acpi, itx doesn't at least. Install in ide mode if you can't get it working, I think xpower has ide mode?
4k+ is possible, but a little hard to do on xpower. Maybe your imc or ram are at their limit on this board?
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Don't get me wrong guys, I would love to see a system that's better for overall fair/cheaper OC fun. But I don't believe a complete reshuffle of the ranking system like the ones mentioned is the way forward.
Also with reagrds to the Higher catagory not necesserily giving a lot of points, you have to remember that older cards like the original titan and a few other super high cost cards will make it in there. Also then do we decide that we will seperate kingpin cards from base models since their price is significantly higher.
Please don't mistake my thoughts as simply bashing others ideas to keep the status quo, I just want a fully thought out and easy to understand system that will work in the long term so we're not constantly forced to update the system every 5 or so years. I absolutely appreciate that you guys are trying to come up with ideas to improve on what we have but I don't see anything here thus far which I believe we can advance on to make into the next platform.
This is what bugs me the most about the hwbot community. Most of the people involved with the site as mods or senior members just want everything to stay the way it is now. If someone makes a suggestion they all say it can't be done, or it will not work and comes up with arguments that would kill 50% of the benchmarks we have today if that argument were to be applied to those benchmarks as well.
You say it won't work but have no real arguments as to why it won't work. And you also have the stomach to say that we should think things through before suggesting something. You don't think your own arguments through when you say it won't work. You don't even present any arguments.
Or maybe the fact that some vendor may price their product a little bit higher than ref. cards is such a terrible obstacle that can't be overcome? It is of course MSRP that should count if hwbot decides to implement that idea...
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Splitting cards up unofficially by high-end/mid-range/low-end sounds great to me, but trying to spin a leaderboard so that a Ford can beat a Maserati and make the Ford owner feel better about their bank account is NOT going to work. The $1M supercar is still a bigger deal in a GLOBAL leaderboard.
Not going to work you say...ok, let's look at CPU leaderboards. Highest points goes to 4core CPUs. By far the most popular and loved category. But surely it doesn't work... It would be much better if all benchmarks would be ranked vs 96core xeons. That would be great for hwbot!
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I also have this issue. It happens when I click on one of the menus, especially the "Benchmarks" menu. It takes many seconds to load the benchmarks list, no matter if I don't select subcategory, or if I select for example "Processor" subcategory. "Hardware" menu is also slow, but not as slow as "benchmarks". Tho others seem to have ok speed. Browsing by phone is even slower.
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not sure how this fixes the issue at hand honestly.
Lets take the last generation of cards as an example, the 980 and 970 would most probably be in the same price category as the 980Ti since their prices were slightly inflated due to them being the fastest products on offer at the time. Then Titan X comes along, is realised for a stupid price. Is in it's own category, great. But then 980TI is released and is in the same category as the 980 and 970 no doubt so the bunnying will probably start all over again as those with money can capitalise on the easy points with the Titan X being in its own category and the 980Ti dominating its category easily.
TL:DR This doesn't seem like a solution but more of a hornets nest to a whole new era of "money wins in overclocking" since your rich OC'ers will LN2 everything, bench all of the new GPU categories with their golden CPUs so the little guy can't even get close anyway.
I think we just need to accept that with the way Nvidia release their products there will be a 2 month period where H20 will compete with LN2 until they release their top "Ti" card.
Also if we want to split AMD and Nvidia apart then we might as well do it on the CPU side too.
I think people have decent ideas but are not really thinking them fully through here. Yes what we have is not perfect, but that is simply because AMD are not competitive right now. Most of the issues we have with leaderboard rankings etc all come down to the fact that Nvidia and Intel have a near monopoly in their respective areas so the price of the products are obscene now.
I don't think people actually read through the posts here, because there is lots of misinformation. The thing I find most appealing is that we will create the GPU equivalent of the 4 core cpu category. The most popular category, and thereby the one which gives the most points, will not be decided by hwbot, nvidia or AMD. It will be decided by what has been, and will be, benched the most by the community. My guess is that lower priced GPUs will be most popular, and how can that be a bad thing?
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Of course, but BW-E was benched on Win 10 at computex. There are tons of submissions on hwbot with win 8/10, including from head of moderation...
Of course the responsibility is each benchers, but more than 30 min heads up would have been nice. Don't know who else missed this but if there really are half missing, then maybe we could prolong this stage?
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We need XOC bios for i3 on XPower. The 173 can't do full pot because PLL volts are limited at 2.0. The GOC bios won't go higher than 125 bclk.
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@Rauf, how do you feel about using MSRP at launch as metric?
Sounds perfect to me. What is relevant is prize and performance. Since prize will always follow performance this way to categorize will handle itself.
Is the GIGABYTE Z170-SOC Force LN2 Retail or ES?
in Benchmark Rules
Posted
What I find most interesting is that in other discussions here everyone agree ES is not a problem whatsoever...
And yes, of course it would be ES.