sacha35 Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Great result Massman and a Fantastic clock speed , but I thought the CPU had to belong to the person submitting the result, as this CPU belongs to Intel and you benched this with Pt1t at the GOOC Event I cannot see how you could have submitted it as you're a mod here and know the rules or am I mistaken here can we all use any CPU or GFX cards we want now. http://www.hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=861202 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Hardware provided by the manufacturer can be used for hwbot submissions. It's allowed to use, for instance, hardware sent for review at hwbot. This is a similar situation, although the hardware is not been used for review but for an overclocking event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barron_Greenback Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 So basically, you dont OWN the CPU. So this score should be removed. HWbot is a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacha35 Posted June 6, 2009 Author Share Posted June 6, 2009 But both yourself and Pt1t ran this bench together at the event so it is not a joint effort , like when we at benchtec ran benchmarks at events, this is why we submitted them under the benchtec name not as an individual as it was a joint effort and not just one person that ran the benchmark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacha35 Posted June 6, 2009 Author Share Posted June 6, 2009 Hardware provided by the manufacturer can be used for hwbot submissions. It's allowed to use, for instance, hardware sent for review at hwbot. This is a similar situation, although the hardware is not been used for review but for an overclocking event. This is not the case, if a CPU or GFX card has been sent to someone then it is for them to test, but at this event the CPU are on loan from Intel so are not the individuals property. I know this to be the case as all CPU's or GFX cards are loaned to the event organiser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 So basically, you dont OWN the CPU. So this score should be removed. HWbot is a joke. No ES hardware is owned by the person who benches it. ES hardware ALWAYS belongs to the manufacturer, even if you payed hard cash to get one. Most of the hardware for review purposes has to be sent back to the manfacturer, hence ... it's a loan. But both yourself and Pt1t ran this bench together at the event so it is not a joint effort , like when we at benchtec ran benchmarks at events, this is why we submitted them under the benchtec name not as an individual as it was a joint effort and not just one person that ran the benchmark. No problems with hardware sharing here since I'm the only one having this score submitted. It's not because I submit to Hwbot that I take full credit for this score; benching with Thomas in Eindhoven, Prague and Taiwan has been incredibly educative for me. If needed, I will delete this score from my account and let Pt1t submit it to his (although I believe he has a chip that will blow this score away). This is not the case, if a CPU or GFX card has been sent to someone then it is for them to test, but at this event the CPU are on loan from Intel so are not the individuals property. I know this to be the case as all CPU's or GFX cards are loaned to the event organiser. No ES hardware is owned by the person who benches it. ES hardware ALWAYS belongs to the manufacturer, even if you payed hard cash to get one. Most of the hardware for review purposes has to be sent back to the manfacturer, hence ... it's a loan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Question: When I ask Gigabyte to keep the chip, is it okay for me to submit scores? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barron_Greenback Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Question: When I ask Gigabyte to keep the chip, is it okay for me to submit scores? Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacha35 Posted June 6, 2009 Author Share Posted June 6, 2009 Question: When I ask Gigabyte to keep the chip, is it okay for me to submit scores? Even though ES chips remain the property of the manufacture some only get these chips on load others get to keep them even though they remain the property of that manufacture. Again I think what you have done is totally wrong and it just shows us all that there is now a real need for independent moderation of a site like this. you are the first that I know off to submit a result from an event with all the hardware not belonging to you, if we look back at all other events past I think we all could have had some great results if we submitted them from benches that we ran at them events but knowing that all of the hardware we used did not belong to use so we did not list any of the results here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF3D Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 (edited) HWbot does not have any problem with scores coming from different events. There is a hundreds of these results in HWbot database already, so why is this any different? If some manufacturer give some hardware to be used in the event, there is no issues at all. They do it for reviews and the situation is exactly same. To see and show what this particular hardware can do. Massman does have all the rights to submit this score and this discussion is totally unnecessary. If Thomas would say, that this is not OK, then there would be a problem. That will not happen, if I know these guys at all. Give me even one valid point, why he should not submit this score to HWbot database and we reconsider to keep this thread open. Edited June 6, 2009 by SF3D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bustah Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 independent moderation is the way to go, but I dont believe Massman is deliberately doing anything underhand at all, no one has suggested He has. but it does highlight the need for revision of hwbot moderation methods and more defined rules and guidelines.. The tricky bit is finding people able and willing to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam__ Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 I had a feeling you could submit a score and tick a box saying you dont want to get points for it. If this is not already implemented what do you think of it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Even though ES chips remain the property of the manufacture some only get these chips on load others get to keep them even though they remain the property of that manufacture. So ... having them on loan equals not having the right to submit. But having them for keeps, although ES, gives you that right? Again I think what you have done is totally wrong and it just shows us all that there is now a real need for independent moderation of a site like this. Independent moderation. So, people who have the possibility to block a score because it looks bugged have to refrain from any benching competition at hwbot? you are the first that I know off to submit a result from an event with all the hardware not belonging to you, if we look back at all other events past I think we all could have had some great results if we submitted them from benches that we ran at them events but knowing that all of the hardware we used did not belong to use so we did not list any of the results here. I was definitly not the first. http://hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=858147 http://hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=842295 http://hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=856985 http://hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=827079 http://hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=840847 http://hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=850897 http://hwbot.org/result.do?resultId=764440 There are more, those just have GOOC or AOCC in the description Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 I had a feeling you could submit a score and tick a box saying you dont want to get points for it. If this is not already implemented what do you think of it? Nope, I can either choose no points at all or points for all scores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam__ Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Nope, I can either choose no points at all or points for all scores. ok, well would it not be worth having that option? so if you do get a result from an event you can then submit it here and choose to get no points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 independent moderation is the way to go, but I dont believe Massman is deliberately doing anything underhand at all, no one has suggested He has. but it does highlight the need for revision of hwbot moderation methods and more defined rules and guidelines.. The tricky bit is finding people able and willing to do it. I wouldn't call it tricky, but nearly impossible. Also, would you guys prefer to have your scores moderated by people who don't benchmark (and thus no experience)? Even today, we have a lot of threads on the secure forums regarding the validity of scores. In the past, I have actually spend my day trying to figure out if a score (with low-end hardware) was indeed possible! I don't see anyone who doesn't bench to do that kind of research. Oh, and no, there are no financial resourse available for this job (FYI: http://hwbot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2570) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 ok, well would it not be worth having that option? so if you do get a result from an event you can then submit it here and choose to get no points. Asked the exact same question on the forums a week ago (not because I wanted to submit a GOOC result, btw). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacha35 Posted June 6, 2009 Author Share Posted June 6, 2009 HWbot does not have any problem with scores coming from different events. There is a hundreds of these results in HWbot database already, so why is this any different? If some manufacturer give some hardware to be used in the event, there is no issues at all. They do it for reviews and the situation is exactly same. To see and show what this particular hardware can do. Massman does have all the rights to submit this score and this discussion is totally unnecessary. If Thomas would say, that this is not OK, then there would be a problem. That will not happen, if I know these guys at all. Give me even one valid point, why he should not submit this score to HWbot database and we reconsider to keep this thread open. I was not aware of any other results being submitted from events as I would have brought this up at the time, but if there are then they should be look into aswell. The problem is that the bench was run by two people so how can it be allocated to any one person, this is why we now have teams like BenchBros who share the points between themselves. I am not taking anything away from the point this was a great clock from this CPU and all should be allowed to see results like this but for one person to take it and them submit it for points gain is totally wrong as none of the hardware belongs to them. I think if this is left to stand then it shows just how corrupt Hwbot is when it comes to rules and this is why I stated before that we now need a real independent to run a site like this as they would have no involvement in benching at all so would be totally unbiased towards anyone or any result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 The problem is that the bench was run by two people so how can it be allocated to any one person, this is why we now have teams like BenchBros who share the points between themselves. I followed EXACTLY what the rules prescribe: score was performed in a joined session, so only ONE person submits the result. The account of Benchbros is nothing like what Thomas and me did in Taiwan. I am not taking anything away from the point this was a great clock from this CPU and all should be allowed to see results like this but for one person to take it and them submit it for points gain is totally wrong as none of the hardware belongs to them. What if Gigabyte sends me the CPU within a few days? Can I submit then? I think if this is left to stand then it shows just how corrupt Hwbot is when it comes to rules and this is why I stated before that we now need a real independent to run a site like this as they would have no involvement in benching at all so would be totally unbiased towards anyone or any result. Alrighty, Massman is now corrupt . Having no involvement in benching = having no experience with hardware behavior/tech limits/benchmark behavior = no knowledge to judge regarding validity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF3D Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Please, explain to me what is the problem again? If two guys bench together and only other submit results to his account : No issues with rules, if that is OK for the both users. Only one will get points and there is no extra gain for both users or some team Hardware provided by manufacturer for competition (short loan) : No issues with rules. This happens all the time. Same situation in your overclocking video. That hardware belongs to intel in the end. (If there was any ES cpu's used) I am still expecting what that valid point will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 I want to make this clear though: please don't interpretend my posts as agressive because I use many quotes in it. I'm only using the quotes to repons to all arguments as organised as possible . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazx Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Please, explain to me what is the problem again? If two guys bench together and only other submit results to his account : No issues with rules, if that is OK for the both users. Only one will get points and there is no extra gain for both users or some team Hardware provided by manufacturer for competition (short loan) : No issues with rules. This happens all the time. Same situation in your overclocking video. That hardware belongs to intel in the end. (If there was any ES cpu's used) I am still expecting what that valid point will be. sf3d i thought you were no longer a mod @ hwbot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bustah Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 I wouldn't call it tricky, but nearly impossible. Also, would you guys prefer to have your scores moderated by people who don't benchmark (and thus no experience)? Even today, we have a lot of threads on the secure forums regarding the validity of scores. In the past, I have actually spend my day trying to figure out if a score (with low-end hardware) was indeed possible! I don't see anyone who doesn't bench to do that kind of research. Oh, and no, there are no financial resourse available for this job (FYI: http://hwbot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2570) I did say willing and ABLE meaning capable or understanding what is required. I allways saw your moderation as very fair, but I have seen in the past as has been said before a result being reported. that result happened to belong to a mod. same mod checked and validated His own result? for that very reason I believe independent moderation needs to be considered. Nothing to do with you personally, but as the issue was raised here again.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacha35 Posted June 6, 2009 Author Share Posted June 6, 2009 I followed EXACTLY what the rules prescribe: score was performed in a joined session, so only ONE person submits the result. The account of Benchbros is nothing like what Thomas and me did in Taiwan. What if Gigabyte sends me the CPU within a few days? Can I submit then? Alrighty, Massman is now corrupt . Having no involvement in benching = having no experience with hardware behavior/tech limits/benchmark behavior = no knowledge to judge regarding validity. I am not saying you are corrupt, but I thought the rules where quite clear with regards system benches to be run with the owner of a CPU or 3D benchmarks to be run with the owner of the GFX cards. As for Gigabyte sending you a CPU I don't think they would be allowed as they would break any NDA rule they had signed with that CPU manufacture. I am happy for this result to stand providing that all of us on Hwbot can now start benching together with anyhardwear we can lay our hands on as thi is the same case as you have done. Please, explain to me what is the problem again? If two guys bench together and only other submit results to his account : No issues with rules, if that is OK for the both users. Only one will get points and there is no extra gain for both users or some team Hardware provided by manufacturer for competition (short loan) : No issues with rules. This happens all the time. Same situation in your overclocking video. That hardware belongs to intel in the end. (If there was any ES cpu's used) I am still expecting what that valid point will be. The difference is the hardware is given to me directly, yes Intel can and may ask for any ES chips back at any time but to this date they have not done so and are solely for me to use only under NDA rules not for others to use so any points are benched by myself and any points are allocated to myself only other than when I did the i33 event where the points where given to the team as it was a joint effort and this platform was for resale at the time of this event. Again I am happy for this result to stand but I think we would then have to let everyone bench together if they wanted and use any hardware they can lay their hands on as this is no different to what has been done providing only one person takes the points with that hardware used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 I am not saying you are corrupt, but I thought the rules where quite clear with regards system benches to be run with the owner of a CPU or 3D benchmarks to be run with the owner of the GFX cards. As for Gigabyte sending you a CPU I don't think they would be allowed as they would break any NDA rule they had signed with that CPU manufacture. I am happy for this result to stand providing that all of us on Hwbot can now start benching together with anyhardwear we can lay our hands on as thi is the same case as you have done. The difference is the hardware is given to me directly, yes Intel can and may ask for any ES chips back at any time but to this date they have not done so and are solely for me to use only under NDA rules not for others to use so any points are benched by myself and any points are allocated to myself only other than when I did the i33 event where the points where given to the team as it was a joint effort and this platform was for resale at the time of this event. Again I am happy for this result to stand but I think we would then have to let everyone bench together if they wanted and use any hardware they can lay their hands on as this is no different to what has been done providing only one person takes the points with that hardware used. Please don't change to political correctness now. You say that this is an example of how hwbot is corrupt and that example just happened to be mine, hence I'm setting an example for how corrupt hwbot is. Doesn't matter how long I've been corrupt, what matters is that you think I am now. If you think I'm not being corrupt now, there's no reason why you should state that this shows how corrupt hwbot is. It's either 0 or 1, not 0.5. I have followed the hwbot rules as everyone else does. If anything, I follow them more than most of the benchers out there, because I know I have a responsibility as a moderator. Please do ask my team mates how I stress the hwbot rules in joined sessions. And what if Gigabyte lends me the cpu and doesn't ask it back for a while? Is it alright then? What if I have an agreement with Intel on this? Since when is it prohibited to bench together? As long as you follow the rules, there's no issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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