knopflerbruce Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 That heaven screenshot reminds me of nature in 01, with LOD 15. I call that ridiculous too. Butterflies that look like post-it notes, trees that are supposed to have leaves are completely naked - etc. By allowing tesselation adjustment we're making the benchmark easier to moderate, anything that can be adjusted slightly will cause problems when people push the limits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FM_Jarnis Posted September 22, 2011 Author Share Posted September 22, 2011 Assuming we want to disallow altering the Tesselation level, there are still the following problems: - we can't see it in the benchmark GUI (so screenshots will be meaningless) If this is, in your opinion, a feature that should be there, we can look into adding it. It won't be instant but we plan to release a patch to 3DMark 11 this year. - we can't see it in the ORB submission page (at least not for a few weeks) You will see it there before the drivers are approved. The whole point is that, from FM's point of view, only the result page on 3dmark.com is the "official" result and whatever is shown in benchmark UI is a preliminary score that still needs to be validated by the online service. You have to understand that there are several known ways to cheat with the score already that would alter the score in the UI but would be rejected on 3dmark.com as the benchmark does no analysis to the score data or the data gathered by SI - it just packages them, displays the score and then prepares for upload to 3dmark.com. - FM's implementation of the Tesselation detection in the benchmark GUI is to remove E/P/X score indications or something similar that makes it impossible for us to verify the score No. If we add something to the benchmark UI, it would be a separate additional note as to the tessellation settings used for the run. Most likely it would say "AMD default tessellation settings" vs. "x x x settings" depending if they were changed or not (and the whole line would not be there on NVIDIA cards, at least until they add something like this to their drivers). The actual score with E/P/X would still be same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FM_Jarnis Posted September 22, 2011 Author Share Posted September 22, 2011 There is no difference between LOD and tesselation on a basic level, both effect image quality. Also maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think it's possible to completely disable Tesselation with the slider, just reduce it. It can be done in the registry. The control panel has some limitations but if you just change the relevant keys in the registry, poof, whole tessellation load gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Massman is it also not the same with Nvidia, the ability to disable it? I thought I remember something like that going around. Rumours, yes, but as far as I know there's no tool that allows disabling Tesselation on Nvidia. I'm sure it can be done, though ... FYI - if you disable the Tesselation in Heaven on Nvidia cards, the gain is approximately 600p (1850 -> 2450), which is pretty much the same gain as AMD-based cards (30%). I'd have no problems considering adjusting the Tesselation level a 'tweak' for competitive benchmarking purposes. It makes the benchmark result less meaningful, yes, but then again so does using liquid nitrogen. With this situation, it would probably be best considering everything to enable it on both platforms. The question is how. For uniformity sake, we should have the same guidelines for any DX11 benchmark. That means: if it's not allowed for 11, it's not allowed for Heaven. That requires us to find a solution for Heaven, which we currently don't have. There are all sorts of other solutions that work around this problem, eg disallowing specific drivers or disallowing AMD-based cards to be used in DX11-benchmarks, but they are very impractical. Keeping it simple and understandible is the key here. As far as we can see, you can extract the default tesselation level from the driver profile xml, but in 5 minutes we also found a way to have the profile say it's enabled and the benchmark running disabled. Afaik, the dll is the only way to grab the info. Of course, all our guidelines are useless when in a few month's time we can disable it on Nvidia too and we don't have any detection mechanism for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxi Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 (edited) FYI - if you disable the Tesselation in Heaven on Nvidia cards... I thought it was just a rumor For uniformity sake, we should have the same guidelines for any DX11 benchmark. I was speaking in broader terms and taking into consideration hwbot's already established approach to these kinds of things, i.e., allowing pretty much anything except the most heinous forms of tweaking. Hwbot's mentality derives from the community because hwbot is made up of benchers, rather than an entity or devoloper who would usually look down on that sort of thing. So we would allow it for any card/benchmark. Hwbot has never followed FM's approved driver policy either, are we going to start now? The only place I can see it being a problem is when (and if) it ever became necessary for the HOF when a valid ORB URL is required...at least for red cards Edited September 22, 2011 by Maxi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 I was speaking in broader terms and taking into consideration hwbot's already established approach to these kinds of things, i.e., allowing pretty much anything except the most heinous forms of tweaking. Hwbot's mentality derives from the community because hwbot is made up of benchers, rather than an entity or devoloper who would usually look down on that sort of thing. So we would allow it for any card/benchmark. Hwbot has never followed FM's approved driver policy either, are we going to start now? The only place I can see it being a problem is when (and if) it ever became necessary for the HOF when a valid ORB URL is required...at least for red cards I'm just looking for the easiest way to moderate results. Like I said: I'd have no problems considering adjusting the Tesselation level a 'tweak' for competitive benchmarking purposes. It makes the benchmark result less meaningful, yes, but then again so does using liquid nitrogen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|ron Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 A question: if Nvidia is going to implement the chance to modify the Tessellation level, a "2x" in the CCC will be equal to a "2x" for nvidia? To better explain what I mean, the Tessellation level is "brand/driver indipendent"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 There are two things: - the tesselation levels - the name that vendors give to it The tesselation levels are not vendor-based, but just defined in dx11 (I think). But of course, any vendor can give different lables to these levels. Evidently, you want the labels to logically match the settings, but it's not a must. So, the levels are brand/driver independant, the labes depedant. @ FM_Jarnis You might want to re-check the security of your systeminfo. It's very easy to make scores approved and change other stuff in the validation file. http://3dmark.com/3dm11/1869402 (approved?) http://3dmark.com/3dm11/1869404 (not approved? Of course, the score is already removed from the competition! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxi Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 I'm just looking for the easiest way to moderate results. Like I said: The answer to that is releasing the method (again ) on how to do it on Nvidia GPU's. People are always happy to discover a new tweak and gain points, the only downside is everyone who put work into previous results without it. The way I see it though, that is the lesser of two evils. Stopping people from submitting with red cards or removing all previous results would imo be harsher. It's common for old results to slide down the rankings, new drivers and other things happening boost new results, allowing it on Nvidia would be similar and mirror the community stance on LOD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesjuhdabomb Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 The answer to that is releasing the method (again ) on how to do it on Nvidia GPU's. People are always happy to discover a new tweak and gain points, the only downside is everyone who put work into previous results without it. The way I see it though, that is the lesser of two evils. Stopping people from submitting with red cards or removing all previous results would imo be harsher. It's common for old results to slide down the rankings, new drivers and other things happening boost new results, allowing it on Nvidia would be similar and mirror the community stance on LOD. agreed here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Let's continue the discussion about the AMD tesselation slider in this thread: http://hwbot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17844. Maybe I should also move the posts that are just allowing/disallowing it at hwbot in that thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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