HWBoints Adjustment #2: HwPoint Motivation

[knopflerbruce]

you are wrong.

 

there are manny different reasions to split HWbot

 

*) INTEL wants to have the fastest CPU (diffent benchmarks are INTEL optimiced and this know everybody around the world)

*) AMD produce price/performance CPU

 

this is one of manny big different and in the future this different will not be other.

 

and here are a few other:

 

*) Superpi is INTEL Optimized

*) 3DMark 06 is INTEL Optimized

*) 3DMark Vantage is INTEL Optimized

*) benchmarks in the future could also be INTEL ore AMD ore ATI ore NVIDIA optimiced

*) why should i bench and match me with INTEL when i am not interested for?

*) why should i bench an AMD for HWBot, if i earn only peanuts of hardware points and no globals?.....i could have the fastest AMD CPU around the world and could not get globals.........thats stupid

*) because the AMD user on HWbot cant´t get hwboints, everey HWBot user with an new INTEL CPU benefits of every AMD benchmark

*) if i bencht 100 realy good AMD CPU. i only get peanuts of hardware points and finaly i has 100 hardware points ore so. and i can never get globals!

*) if i bench one stupid realy good i7 wich runs 6ghz ore so, i wil get much more pionts than the 100 AMD CPU

*) before 1.1.2010 HWBot was INTEL optimized. after this day it is much more INTEL optimized than before

 

take a look on the street.

there is a VW Käfer and there is also a Ferrari.

the VW Käfer is a Car, and the Ferrari is also a Car.

but if you want to race, there must be same conditions for all.

because the VW Käfer can not race with a Ferrari, because they are to different and everybody knows, that the ferrari will win. but also everybody knows, that the VW käfer is cheap and has a long live and the Ferrari is expensive and has no long live. and also they know, that Ferrari drives in the F1 and so Ferrari knows much more not allowed tricks than VW.

and so everybody is interested to knwow wich Ferrari is the fastest of all Ferrari and also wich VW käfer is the fastest one of all VW Käfer

so finaly the Ferrari race with the other Ferrari and the VW Käfer race with the other VW Käfer

 

my decision has been made.....i will never bench for HWbot again, befor AMD and INTEL is splitted beacause it is not interesting to bench an AMD CPU for HWbot at the moment

 

I can't comment on 3dmark, but Superpi wasn't that much faster on Intel systems during the Athlon XP days - and the program has been unchanged since it was released (when was this? many years ago...).

 

It's right that there are more popular categories in the Intel rankings - but how can people expect to get boints for the AMD CPUs when they don't bench them? If you have more than ~100 results you start to get a pretty decent amount of boints for the top HW spots... 100 is not that many, actually.

 

AMD would've released a $1000 killerchip if they could. Since their parts are sloightly slower than Intels they have to focus on price/performance NOW to be able to sell.

 

The HWBot 3.0 system is popularity optimized, and if AMD users are too lazy to bench, then they will never get a nice reward for 1st place.

[Techtrancer]

@ Don_Dan

 

yes. for fun! but it is not funny to upload AMD benchmarks here!

in the 05 it is possible. but 06 and ventage is intel optimized and so you have noch fair chances with the distribution points of HWbot of the moment.

build one INTEL and one AMD system wich has in 05 the same score and than bench the same systems in 06 ore vantage and you wil see, that in 06 and Vantage the INTEL sys wil get a much higher score

and with everry benchmarks in the futuere it also could be the same

and so finaly the only RIGHT way ist to split AMD and INTEL and NVIDIA and ATI,..........every other way is definitely the WRONG way!

 

1000000 points for all AMD

1000000 points for all INTEL

1000000 points for all ATI

1000000 points for all NVIDIA

 

and so on

 

so easy could it be!

 

@ knopflerbruce

 

everybody around the world knows, that 3dmark06 and Vantage and superpi is intel optimiced and you dont know it?

you want to sell me stupid?

Edited January 9, 2010 by Techtrancer

[knopflerbruce]

@ Don_Dan

 

yes. for fun! but it is not funny to upload AMD benchmarks here!

in the 05 it is possible. but 06 and ventage is intel optimized and so you have noch fair chances with the distribution points of HWbot of the moment.

build one INTEL and one AMD system wich has in 05 the same score and than bench the same systems in 06 ore vantage and you wil see, that in 06 and Vantage the INTEL sys wil get a much higher score

 

@ knopflerbruce

 

everybody around the world knows, that 3dmark06 and Vantage and superpi is intel optimiced and you dont know it?

you want to sell me stupid?

 

If it was Intel optimized, it must've been optimized for some ancient core... If Pentium I optimized means Nehalem-optimized as well, then you're right.

 

Perhaps I'm stupid, but can you link me to a reliable source that tells me that it actually IS pro-Intel?

 

IMO if a benchmark is optimized intentionally towards one manufacturer it should have separate world record rankings, as it's not fair to compare. Proof is needed, though.

[Techtrancer]

i dont have an INTEL and AMD system to show you the different in 3dmark

 

but you only must search a little bit on google

 

take a look at this

 

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/aid,697407/Vorwurf-Intel-nutzt-angeblich-optimierte-Grafikkartentreiber-fuer-3DMark-Vantage/Grafikkarte/News/

 

in othe benchmarks it is realy hard to comprehend if they are optimized ore not. and in the future it wil not be easyier to comprehend this

 

so it must be splitted, beacuse then every producer could made their own things.

 

because in the world of the moment only the producer with the most money winns

 

if i go tu futuremark and give them 10000000$ to optimice it for AMD singelcore, the AMD singelcore wil also win the match with an INTEL quadcore

Edited January 9, 2010 by Techtrancer

[Massman]

There are so much things wrong with what you're trying to prove here:

 

1) Splitting up in Intel/AMD leaves us with ++ other CPU manufacturing companies, where to fit those in?

2) Splitting up in Nvidia/ati leaves us with ...

3) Why would it be Intel-optimised when Intel could just be ... more performant?

 

There's a lot more involved in this whole debate, to be honest. There's driver optimisations for specific benchmark scenario's, library optimisations, and so on.

[knopflerbruce]

i dont have an INTEL and AMD system to show you the different in 3dmark

 

but you only must search a little bit on google

 

take a look at this

 

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/aid,697407/Vorwurf-Intel-nutzt-angeblich-optimierte-Grafikkartentreiber-fuer-3DMark-Vantage/Grafikkarte/News/

 

in othe benchmarks it is realy hard to comprehend if they are optimized ore not. and in the future it wil not be easyier to comprehend this

 

so it must be splitted, beacuse then every producer could made their own things.

 

because in the world of the moment only the producer with the most money winns

 

if i go tu futuremark and give them 10000000$ to optimice it for AMD singelcore, the AMD singelcore wil also win the match with an INTEL quadcore

 

Drivers optimized for a specific benchmark are not allowed, so that's taken care of already.

 

The superpi discussion started when c2d was launched, but the application itself is much older. BEsides, the "optimization" is so huge no-one would ever believe that it represents the actual performacne difference:p

[Alriin]

SuperPi is optimized for an Intel instruction set. That's the truth. But i can't hold with that... its not the right way to splitting AMD and Intel.

 

In my forum a (Intel-)User program the Benchmark "SuperFIB". He dont make optimizing for any CPU, but the performance of AMD-CPUs is higher then all Intel-CPUs. :-) Include it on HWbot!!! :-)

 

@Techtrancer

I hate Intel, but i bench 3DMarks with an Xeon W3520. All AMD-Junkies who whant to make more Points on HWbot must do that. So sell your soul to the devil and come to us in the Intel-Hell. :-)

[Bones]

I hate Intel, but i bench 3DMarks with an Xeon W3520. All AMD-Junkies who whant to make more Points on HWbot must do that. So sell your soul to the devil and come to us in the Intel-Hell. :-)

 

Nah - The price is too high.

 

I approve of the latest in trying to make things better.

Thanks guys.

[Techtrancer]

There are so much things wrong with what you're trying to prove here:

 

1) Splitting up in Intel/AMD leaves us with ++ other CPU manufacturing companies, where to fit those in?

2) Splitting up in Nvidia/ati leaves us with ...

3) Why would it be Intel-optimised when Intel could just be ... more performant?

 

There's a lot more involved in this whole debate, to be honest. There's driver optimisations for specific benchmark scenario's, library optimisations, and so on.

 

 

i show you 10 points why it must be splited

 

and you can´t show to me only one point why it is not so?

 

shame on you

Edited January 12, 2010 by Techtrancer

[Massman]

Your arguments are merely an expression of your love for AMD. Pointing out that a benchmark performs better on Intel because it scores higher on Intel is not a valid argument, because you start with the assumption that AMD is either better or equally performant as Intel. Pointing out that Intel optimised the drivers for the benchmark is quite irrelevant as both Nvidia and Ati are guilty of the same crime. And so on.

[chew*]

you are wrong.

 

there are manny different reasions to split HWbot

 

*) INTEL wants to have the fastest CPU (diffent benchmarks are INTEL optimiced and this know everybody around the world)

*) AMD produce price/performance CPU

 

this is one of manny big different and in the future this different will not be other.

 

and here are a few other:

 

*) Superpi is INTEL Optimized

*) 3DMark 06 is INTEL Optimized

*) 3DMark Vantage is INTEL Optimized

*) benchmarks in the future could also be INTEL ore AMD ore ATI ore NVIDIA optimiced

*) why should i bench and match me with INTEL when i am not interested for?

*) why should i bench an AMD for HWBot, if i earn only peanuts of hardware points and no globals?.....i could have the fastest AMD CPU around the world and could not get globals.........thats stupid

*) because the AMD user on HWbot cant´t get hwboints, everey HWBot user with an new INTEL CPU benefits of every AMD benchmark

*) if i bencht 100 realy good AMD CPU. i only get peanuts of hardware points and finaly i has 100 hardware points ore so. and i can never get globals!

*) if i bench one stupid realy good i7 wich runs 6ghz ore so, i wil get much more pionts than the 100 AMD CPU

*) before 1.1.2010 HWBot was INTEL optimized. after this day it is much more INTEL optimized than before

 

take a look on the street.

there is a VW Käfer and there is also a Ferrari.

the VW Käfer is a Car, and the Ferrari is also a Car.

but if you want to race, there must be same conditions for all.

because the VW Käfer can not race with a Ferrari, because they are to different and everybody knows, that the ferrari will win. but also everybody knows, that the VW käfer is cheap and has a long live and the Ferrari is expensive and has no long live. and also they know, that Ferrari drives in the F1 and so Ferrari knows much more not allowed tricks than VW.

and so everybody is interested to knwow wich Ferrari is the fastest of all Ferrari and also wich VW käfer is the fastest one of all VW Käfer

so finaly the Ferrari race with the other Ferrari and the VW Käfer race with the other VW Käfer

 

my decision has been made.....i will never bench for HWbot again, befor AMD and INTEL is splitted beacause it is not interesting to bench an AMD CPU for HWbot at the moment

 

If I might interject a little intellect here.

 

I am an AMD bencher, I rarely touch intel, I rank fairly high on the bot. Really nothing more to say.

[Alriin]

Adjustment 2 was the first step to a perfect HWbot! Great work...

 

But too many points for average scores was still a problem.

Yesterday i found old test-scores of a Geforce 7900GT on my Bench-HDD. 3 Scores of them are my best Scores (HWboints) ever. Rank 22, 22 and 15. Its too easy to make HW-Points with average scores from mainstream-hardware.

[knopflerbruce]

Looks better now:)

 

If more categories will reach more than 20 results in each benchmark I feel the database function of HWBot has improved alot.

[71proste]

I voted yes, but my main motiviation with oldies/not popular HW was the awards with achievements like being HW junkie, I have benched my 3 summer holiday weeks last year to achive it - now it doesn't mean anything at all

 

Same here, I lost more than 150 points (hardware masters league) I sold all my hardware.

I voted yes

The idea is very cOOl, thanks

Edited January 12, 2010 by 71proste

[SArd]

Thank you.

 

I see that you appreciate the time spent on testing hundreds of laptops.

[Techtrancer]

Your arguments are merely an expression of your love for AMD. Pointing out that a benchmark performs better on Intel because it scores higher on Intel is not a valid argument, because you start with the assumption that AMD is either better or equally performant as Intel. Pointing out that Intel optimised the drivers for the benchmark is quite irrelevant as both Nvidia and Ati are guilty of the same crime. And so on.

 

do you understand what i have written?

It is not interesting if AMD ore INEL is faster!

and also it is a fake at the moment, because many benchmarks are INTEL optimiced.

so it is interested wich INTEL is the fastest of all INTEL and also wich AMD is the fastest of all AMD

Edited January 12, 2010 by Techtrancer

[Techtrancer]

If I might interject a little intellect here.

 

I am an AMD bencher, I rarely touch intel, I rank fairly high on the bot. Really nothing more to say.

 

yes! you have realy much points with AMD only! realy big up for your work!

but you should get much more points for your work.

but at the moment you can only earn penuts of hardwarepoints :-(

an the badest ist, that in the future with the new HWbot system the INTEL wil earn much more hardwarepoints, because also old INTEL hardware was more benched on hwbot than old AMD hardware

first it look likes first for you that you can win a little bit more AMD hardware points than bevore, but this is wrong!

but finaly (not fast) you wil loose you ranking on hwbot

wich ranking did you have bevor the 1.1.2010? and wich ranking did you ahve at the moment?

Edited January 12, 2010 by Techtrancer

[Massman]

Ok, Techtrancer, thanks for sharing your opinion.

[TRG]

I've been following this 'seperate AMD and INTEL' discussion, and I strongly disagree.

 

The current lead of INTEL in some benchmarks is only a realistic reflection of the current architectures from both companies. Don't forget INTEL is much bigger than AMD, so AMD is still doing one hell of a job. With the introduction of the Athlon64, AMD was taking lots of first spots (Athlon FX anyone?), only with the introduction of C2D the balance has tipped a bit too much in favour of INTEL. The good thing is that you don't know what future will bring. AMD is capable of releasing ground breaking chipdesigns every year, and hopefully it will happen this year instead of next year. But this competition process takes lots of years, and hence at the moment it seems that INTEL has been holding top positions for too long, but that's not true.

 

In the GPU department AMD is doing a VERY good job. If we would split AMD and INTEL up, than this should also be done in the GPU department for the same reasons between AMD and NVIDIA. And I don't see any reason for that.

 

Splitting AMD and INTEL up is like introducing a F1 competition for Ferrari only and one for Mercedes only. It just doesn't make sense, they are both cars. Nobody is complaining that Ferrari is taking all the points every year right? (I don't know for sure what the actual F1 history is). Every competition has losers and winners. Even ABBA knew that. Compensating the lower part of the ranking list equals destroying the concept of competition.

 

It would be funny if I would re-read this thread in 4 years, when some killer AMD cpu is breaking 3s superPI 1M for the first time ever

 

PS: Taking the first spot in some heavily populated Pentium 3 CPU category, after days of trying and tweaking, gives me MUCH MORE SATISFACTION than receiving 10 times as much boints with quickly benching my non-tweaked brand-new 2000 euro uber-computer-system. Who cares about boints in such a situation? I got that goddamned golden cup which is difficult to take from me. My easy new-system boints will be forgotten and dissapear over time...

 

PS2: Dont think I'm a intel fanboy just because I happen to bench lot's of P3's lately. I garantuee that 5 out of my 7 computersystem from the last decade were AMD based.

Edited January 12, 2010 by TRG

[knopflerbruce]

yes! you have realy much points with AMD only! realy big up for your work!

but you should get much more points for your work.

but at the moment you can only earn penuts of hardwarepoints :-(

an the badest ist, that in the future with the new HWbot system the INTEL wil earn much more hardwarepoints, because also old INTEL hardware was more benched on hwbot than old AMD hardware

first it look likes first for you that you can win a little bit more AMD hardware points than bevore, but this is wrong!

but finaly (not fast) you wil loose you ranking on hwbot

wich ranking did you have bevor the 1.1.2010? and wich ranking did you ahve at the moment?

 

If Intel chips were benched more, it will often be more difficult to grab the first spots there than for other ranks without the same competition. How can this be wrong? It's impossible for the engine to actually know how much skill it took to achieve some result, and IMO the popularity/rank method is pretty good. Sure there are submissions that don't get the boints they deserve, and vice versa, but to give AMD categories advantages just because there aren't several hundreds of users that bench those chips.

 

We all know superpi (and possibly a few other tests) don't show the real performance difference between the different cores (not just manufacturers), but that itself is not enough to split like you suggests. If you can prove that FM and superpi are deliberately designed to be bad on AMD and good on Intel, then it's different.

[Massman]

FYI: if it wasn't for Intel's hyperthreading technology, AMD would be owning them clock-per-clock ...

[PeterStoba]

Good move! I'm up to 52.9 points from something like 26

 

I'm happy to continue benching

[romdominance]

Glad you guys are doing this for the hardware grinders. I didn't like what I saw happening to teams like CP. Thanks Mass and RB.

 

PS. The "category will become void of participants" mentality could easily be applied to the multi -gpu category.

 

I am worried that it is no longer worthwhile to bench a 5970 because the 5870 is worth so much more boints. Your thoughts?

[71proste]

Good move! I'm up to 52.9 points from something like 26

 

I'm happy to continue benching

 

I earn almost 70 points, overall lost around 80 instead of 150 , not bad

[chew*]

yes! you have realy much points with AMD only! realy big up for your work!

but you should get much more points for your work.

but at the moment you can only earn penuts of hardwarepoints :-(

an the badest ist, that in the future with the new HWbot system the INTEL wil earn much more hardwarepoints, because also old INTEL hardware was more benched on hwbot than old AMD hardware

first it look likes first for you that you can win a little bit more AMD hardware points than bevore, but this is wrong!

but finaly (not fast) you wil loose you ranking on hwbot

wich ranking did you have bevor the 1.1.2010? and wich ranking did you ahve at the moment?

 

Tbh I am ranked roughly about the same.......I lost some global points.....guess what. It's because people benched 3d not becasue amd is worth nothing point wise........I have not had time to. I get a single 5870, rebench I will be right back where I was......Nothing really changed for me other than I made a poor decision graphic card wise prior to the revision's.

 

Only reason I might have lost about 40 ranks is due to not benching...thats the name of the game.

 

If I were you, I would complain less, go buy 5 of AMD's cheapest current chip, bin them and rack up some decent global points. Do a little research and you will figure it out.