The Poll: Allow E.S. or disallow ?

[Gautam]

Just take a look at poll results, mate. It's just a sample yet but it looks like people is stating that ES processors are not necessary in Bot.

 

Yeah, forgive me. These "people" know best. After all, what's more intelligent than an angry mob?

[AndreYang]

any WR with W3570 retail? i don't think so... Make a WR with a retail w3570 or 980X to prove us wrong but i guess that is no possible...

 

 

 

I take so many 03 05 AM3 WRs with Retail W3570 and I also take 06 WRs with retail W3540. If you want to question it, you just need to search my results.

[dread77]

Yeah, forgive me. These "people" know best. After all, what's more intelligent than an angry mob?

 

I wasn't referring to you Gautam. I forgot to quote a previous post from Massman. Sorry for that.

 

Though, I don't think it's all about an "angry mob"... I am not willing to believe that there are o/cers taking SO seriously this ranking thing. I am just trying to have a civilized conversation.

Edited June 6, 2010 by dread77

[Massman]

LOL²

 

Just take a look at poll results, mate. It's just a sample yet but it looks like people is stating that ES processors are not necessary in Bot.

 

Regarding stummer, yes I am not able to predict how things would have turned out if there weren't ES around. It's just an assumption based on facts given by Hwbot database. You are not arguing with that, or are you?

 

If I look at the POLL results I see more than 50% saying that ES have a place on HWBOT ...

 

The assumption is flawed and facts presented by HWBOT database cannot be used to make any prediction regarding the ranking if ES was not allowed. Why? All the people who are using an ES CPU are NOT using a retail CPU to make their scores. So, in an attempt to make a league based on retail-only scores, you just take away the overclockers who are using ES as if they would be nowhere without that ES CPU.

 

It's flawed, thus invalid.

[chuchnit]

I'm with most of your guys complaints but what you're all missing is the fact that instating such a rule won't solve the problem that you guys want solved. It's not even a band-aid fix. You guys all want less manufacturer interference, and for it to be easier for the "average joe" to compete. Banning ESes won't accomplish any of that. What good did that "no ES" rule do in the Gigabyte uguru contest? If you take the GTX480 as an example, the issue isn't retail vs ES. Some people have access to special BIOSes that others don't. What good will banning ES cards do there? None.

 

Who will banning ESes really hurt? The same "average joes" you guys want to help. Forget about the A0 gulftowns and the C2 clarkdales for the time being. Look at all the ES results on hwbot. Who have these ESes? Were all of them seeded by manufacturers? No, most of them were purchased (illegally) by "regular" guys like yourselves, on ebay or otherwise. And about the A0's, there's plenty of results with them out there that are far from spectacular.

 

And here's the other thing. Everyone's out for sponsorships these days. When someone has an advantage that others don't, they will use it. If they don't have it, they will bitch about it. That's human nature, and it's being exemplified quite beautifully here. Quite ironic that the thread starter here is the same guy who has a sig full of thanks to his sponsors on xs.

 

But, it's much easier to act self-righteous chanting ideals about the "little guy" without thinking about what the hell you're posting. You always come out sounding right that way anyways.

 

If you guys are against overclocking being a playground for marketing teams then say so, but then don't turn around and be hypocrites and submit results using seeded hardware. Using the biggest whiners are the ones that already have some support but are just bitter that they don't have the royal treatment.

 

Personally, even years ago, when it started with mobo manufacturers seeding a board or two here and there, it made me uncomfortable, because I knew that eventually we'd end up in the very situation we're in now. Then I went along with the flow. Now I quit. I don't know what the answer is, but it sure as hell isn't as simple as banning ES cpus.

 

Probably the quickest "fix" is to have a league solely for the "pros". Then all the manufacturer's guys can have battle, we watch in awe, and doesn't skew the rankings for mere mortals. I love seeing the scores that are put up, but it is bullshit to say its fair to compete against that.

 

I could go into more, but I'm wasting my time at this place.

[Don_Dan]

Whats the problem?

 

Okay:

 

- manufacturers allowing people to bin from an enormous amount of samples

- manufacturers prebinning hardware directly at the factory and handing them to a select few

- manufacturers working out mod instructions and giving them to a select few

 

Just to name a few things.

 

I cannot understand why everyone is so furious about ES samples, if those get banned from HWBot, people will either rebrand their hardware as retail or they will start binning retail hardware.

I would be really curious about how many of the guys complaining now tried a few A0 samples without finding a freak chip. If someone of the those people had found a great chip, would that change his opinion?

 

 

Gautam, you posted while I was writing my post, you put my thoughts into words perfectly.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Don_Dan

[Gautam]

I wasn't referring to you Gautam. I forgot to quote a previous post from Massman. Sorry for that.

 

This thread is moving tooo fast...

[euklidis]

I'm with most of your guys complaints but what you're all missing is the fact that instating such a rule won't solve the problem that you guys want solved. It's not even a band-aid fix. You guys all want less manufacturer interference, and for it to be easier for the "average joe" to compete. Banning ESes won't accomplish any of that. What good did that "no ES" rule do in the Gigabyte uguru contest? If you take the GTX480 as an example, the issue isn't retail vs ES. Some people have access to special BIOSes that others don't. What good will banning ES cards do there? None.

 

Who will banning ESes really hurt? The same "average joes" you guys want to help. Forget about the A0 gulftowns and the C2 clarkdales for the time being. Look at all the ES results on hwbot. Who have these ESes? Were all of them seeded by manufacturers? No, most of them were purchased (illegally) by "regular" guys like yourselves, on ebay or otherwise. And about the A0's, there's plenty of results with them out there that are far from spectacular.

 

And here's the other thing. Everyone's out for sponsorships these days. When someone has an advantage that others don't, they will use it. If they don't have it, they will bitch about it. That's human nature, and it's being exemplified quite beautifully here. Quite ironic that the thread starter here is the same guy who has a sig full of thanks to his sponsors on xs.

 

But, it's much easier to act self-righteous chanting ideals about the "little guy" without thinking about what the hell you're posting. You always come out sounding right that way anyways.

 

If you guys are against overclocking being a playground for marketing teams then say so, but then don't turn around and be hypocrites and submit results using seeded hardware. Using the biggest whiners are the ones that already have some support but are just bitter that they don't have the royal treatment.

 

Personally, even years ago, when it started with mobo manufacturers seeding a board or two here and there, it made me uncomfortable, because I knew that eventually we'd end up in the very situation we're in now. Then I went along with the flow. Now I quit. I don't know what the answer is, but it sure as hell isn't as simple as banning ES cpus.

 

Have you consider that ES sold on ebay are already tested an do not overclock as good as their competitors in here?

[Gautam]

Some food for thought.

 

I have a 860 Es and a 980x ES. CBB -50 -90CB 860 ES. CBB -60 -100CB 980X.

Both suck.

 

I have a 920 retail. 4900 uncore through 32m CB -135

 

Now I have a retail 5870SOC, came in a retail box, is a retail revision and does 1500 ram through vantage......and don't give me the BS it needs to be binned on ln2.

 

Ram doesn't need ln2 binning. VDDR Ram can be binned just by looking at batch.

 

Point is there is no real solution and it can go either way. How hard is it to rebrand ES with retail batch info.......Lets look back at retail "recognized by cpu-z" AMD 955 BE HL ES chips.....

 

For the record the chip makers know where the best silicon is on a wafer.....they don't need to really get scientific about it once original testing is done.

 

Anyway my 2c i agree with gatman.

 

Hope people read this...

[Viss]

If ES would be disallowed, whats next? No boints for people who have the funds to bin from, lets say, +5 CPU's ? The field wil never be completely levelled, deal with it and enjoy your hobby. Before Clark there have always been better retail chips then ES models. Its not as bad as presented.

[euklidis]

I take so many 03 05 AM3 WRs with Retail W3570 and I also take 06 WRs with retail W3540. If you want to question it, you just need to search my results.

 

just did... couldn't find w3570 though or another retail cpu

 

http://hwbot.org/community/submission/987842_andreyang_superpi_32m_core_i7_980x_5min_37sec_234ms'>http://hwbot.org/community/submission/987842_andreyang_superpi_32m_core_i7_980x_5min_37sec_234ms

 

http://hwbot.org/community/submission/987842_andreyang_superpi_32m_core_i7_980x_5min_37sec_234ms

 

http://hwbot.org/community/submission/1011592_andreyang_3dmark_2005_geforce_gtx_480_55493_marks

 

http://hwbot.org/community/submission/1012457_andreyang_3dmark_2006_geforce_gtx_480_42891_marks

 

http://hwbot.org/community/submission/1011590_andreyang_3dmark_2003_geforce_gtx_480_140885_marks'>http://hwbot.org/community/submission/1011590_andreyang_3dmark_2003_geforce_gtx_480_140885_marks

 

http://hwbot.org/community/submission/1011590_andreyang_3dmark_2003_geforce_gtx_480_140885_marks

 

http://hwbot.org/community/submission/1010715_andreyang_3dmark_2006_4x_radeon_hd_5870_47240_marks

[dread77]

If I look at the POLL results I see more than 50% saying that ES have a place on HWBOT ...

 

Well, that's another way to interpret a possible result. The UP TO NOW outcome though is clear, ES should not be awarded with points.

No one is asking hwbot to take this poll under consideration, massman, I am sure you wouldn't. Though, it's a reality and it would be, at least, healthy

to exchange thoughts on this issue.

Edited June 6, 2010 by dread77

[BenchZowner]

Quite ironic that the thread starter here is the same guy who has a sig full of thanks to his sponsors on xs. (I don't mean this as an attack on you Bill, but it's just too prevalent to not note)

 

That's just wrong, because:

 

1) They're not my sponsors.

2) They're just people who helped me back when I started reviewing hardware

3) They're not sending me pretested hardware to bench, they're just my contacts that send me random retail samples to review on my site.

 

p.s.1. My recent scores were obtained with an 980X E.S. CPU ( crappy for most benches, but whatever ), and I'm more than happy to have those removed regardless of the "outcome" regarding the E.S. hardware.

 

p.s.2. Obviously the ones who have good connections with a few mfc's can also bin retails, but binning retails would be much less harsh than binning E.S.

The best retail out there can't outclock the best E.S.

Actually the best retail out there is a worse clocker than the "mid-class E.S." out there.

Binning E.S. is just making sure that nobody would get past that man, simply because the retails are and from the looks of it will remain worse.

It's way easier to find a "diamond" E.S. than finding a "diamond" retail.

How many good E.S.'s do we have on HWbot ? 20 ? 30 ?

How many good retails do we have on HWbot ?

How many E.S. were tested to get to those 30 great ones ?

How many retails were tested to get to those... 2 ? 3 ?

[Viss]

just did... couldn't find w3570 though or another retail cpu

 

http://hwbot.org/community/submission/987842_andreyang_superpi_32m_core_i7_980x_5min_37sec_234ms'>http://hwbot.org/community/submission/987842_andreyang_superpi_32m_core_i7_980x_5min_37sec_234ms

 

http://hwbot.org/community/submission/987842_andreyang_superpi_32m_core_i7_980x_5min_37sec_234ms

 

http://hwbot.org/community/submission/1011592_andreyang_3dmark_2005_geforce_gtx_480_55493_marks

 

http://hwbot.org/community/submission/1012457_andreyang_3dmark_2006_geforce_gtx_480_42891_marks

 

http://hwbot.org/community/submission/1011590_andreyang_3dmark_2003_geforce_gtx_480_140885_marks'>http://hwbot.org/community/submission/1011590_andreyang_3dmark_2003_geforce_gtx_480_140885_marks

 

http://hwbot.org/community/submission/1011590_andreyang_3dmark_2003_geforce_gtx_480_140885_marks

 

http://hwbot.org/community/submission/1010715_andreyang_3dmark_2006_4x_radeon_hd_5870_47240_marks

 

Not todays records obviously....

 

http://hwbot.org/community/submission/911906_andreyang_3dmark_2003_4x_radeon_hd_5870_187738_marks

 

http://hwbot.org/community/submission/914446_andreyang_3dmark_2005_3x_radeon_hd_5870_52095_marks

 

http://hwbot.org/community/submission/884433_andreyang_superpi_32m_xeon_w3570_6min_17sec_810ms

[euklidis]

Not todays records obviously....

 

http://hwbot.org/community/submission/911906_andreyang_3dmark_2003_4x_radeon_hd_5870_187738_marks

 

http://hwbot.org/community/submission/914446_andreyang_3dmark_2005_3x_radeon_hd_5870_52095_marks

 

http://hwbot.org/community/submission/884433_andreyang_superpi_32m_xeon_w3570_6min_17sec_810ms

 

22 oct 2009... by that time 980X was not able at hwbot for posting good scores btw and fully acceptable from everyone in hwbot. AY is a great OCer, he doesn't need ES to reach top 10, So i do not see the reason playing with ES

Edited June 6, 2010 by euklidis

[Viss]

When W3570&975 were king (before Gulftown) Andre's top scores were with retail chips, thats what he said.

[Massman]

No one is asking hwbot to take this poll under consideration, massman, I am sure you wouldn't. Though, it's a reality and it would be, at least, healthy

to exchange thoughts on this issue.

 

Hahaha ... sure; no one is asking HWBOT ...

 

I already said it in the other thread, man, I never ever refuse to listen to suggestions or ideas. All you need to do is gather a set of valid arguments and accept that YOUR vision might not be the correct one. For me, discussions end when people are only out to make noise, use simplistic and populistic arguments to win people over, use arguments that are flawed from top to bottom, do not accept that the suggested solution will bring similar problems in the future and are this only a very short-term solution.

 

It's easy to see through the sherade some people put up here; just have a look at arguments against the easy solution ...

[Don_Corleone-]

Simply ,I agree with disallowing

It's not my fault that i could not find a 980x with a lower CB.

[$@39@]

I can't understand the reason of continuing this conversation. It is pretty obvious that most of the o/cers participate in the hwbot don't want the ES cpu to gain any points.Is it difficult for those who manage hwbot.org to disallow the ES's ?!!!. You can't continue something that most people don't like.

[BenchZowner]

When W3570&975 were king (before Gulftown) Andre's top scores were with retail chips, thats what he said.

 

You do realize that there was no difference between the E.S. and the retail Nehalem's back then right ?

Binning retails was more worthwhile than binning E.S. then.

You had better chances to find a great retail chip than an E.S.

 

This is obviously not the case with Gulftown and Clarkdale.

[Viss]

....... Before Clark there have always been better retail chips then ES models. Its not as bad as presented.

 

i do, just making clear what was said about them chips.

[BenchZowner]

It's not as bad as presented ?

 

Ok then captain obvious, let's ask some people ( Andre, Nick, HiCookie, SF3D ) to bin 980X & 670 ES's like crazy, and let you and 49 more overclockers battle against the 4 E.S. people with retail 980X & 670.

 

Let me preorder some tons of pop corn first

[stealth]

If I look at the POLL results I see more than 50% saying that ES have a place on HWBOT ...

 

Depends on which way you look at it, from my point o view people voted in the second and third category don't like ES to participate in hwbot rankings one way or another.

 

Now say that the poll results are :

 

Allow them as normal hardware ( rankings & points given ) = 51

Totally disallow them ( no submissions, no points, nothing )= 50

Allow them as submissions without points = 50

Allow them as normal but in a separate league : 20

 

Now you see that people don't like ES are over 50% of the total but the ES will be allowed. In my opinion the second and the third category should be one because now you split people don't like ES in two categories.

 

My two sents:)

 

stealth

Edited June 6, 2010 by stealth

[Viss]

I just dont get why people get so excited by this so called "unfair" situation. If you were 100% into it but just not able to make top spot due to the fact you dont have ES i could get the point but cmon... There's many things in live that wont be possibe for many, its better to use your time for the things that are.

 

The guys who have acces to these chips work hard for it, its not given away for nothing

[BenchZowner]

It's 59 to 14 at the moment.

And of the 14 "yes" three of them would lose most of their points once the E.S. hardware gets disallowed.

 

Oh no, it must be a misconception