The Poll: Allow E.S. or disallow ?

[Massman]

if you remove ES only companies who actually paid for the golden ES would be sad it's not a secret, cherry ES cpus where bought by companies among thousands of ES... send the best to some people and the rest are returned or on ebay. The only way to stop manufacturers interference is removing the ES advantage they have. Sure they can buy thousands of retail cpus and find good cpus but so do the rest of us. Who knows. I might be lucky the next time i buy a cpu luckier than companies...

 

... you ... can ... make ... ES ... look ... like ... retail ...

 

Does everyone understand that the our entire knowledge of the ES sample is based on the "(ES)" indication in the CPU-Z software application? That's the ONLY clue we have when it comes to detecting ES in screenshots ... even FM links don't say ES or not.

 

Okay, if you understand this, then ...

 

Do you guys remember that AMD has made HIGH-LEAKAGE ES samples look like retail in CPU-Z?

 

Okay, if you remember this, then ...

 

1) We can only detect "ES" with CPU-Z

2) You can make CPU-Z see "non-retail" as "retail"

 

=> Remove ES = ???

[[GF]Duke]

... you ... can ... make ... ES ... look ... like ... retail ...

 

Does everyone understand that the our entire knowledge of the ES sample is based on the "(ES)" indication in the CPU-Z software application? That's the ONLY clue we have when it comes to detecting ES in screenshots ... even FM links don't say ES or not.

 

Okay, if you understand this, then ...

 

Do you guys remember that AMD has made HIGH-LEAKAGE ES samples look like retail in CPU-Z?

 

Okay, if you remember this, then ...

 

1) We can only detect "ES" with CPU-Z

2) You can make CPU-Z see "non-retail" as "retail"

 

=> Remove ES = ???

 

Yea that totally sucks. It would be impossible to tell.

[$@39@]

Video is an option when a cpus hits 6.7 for example....

[BenchZowner]

We can... contact FutureMark and ask them for a better system info add-on...

 

On #2 massman, just like you can make CPU-z say retail instead of ES, you can mipmap AquaMark 3 and post an image with altered CPU clocks to go with the higher score...

[[GF]Duke]

yea but like my Retail 980x can do better than some ES and people would question it. There are some good retail chips out there. they are far and few between and people would start flagging saying i tried to hide my ES chip status.

[knopflerbruce]

Video is an option when a cpus hits 6.7 for example....

 

IHS can be lapped. Plus, it's not like you always have a video camera around when you're benching... and where do we set the limit? You say 6.7, why 6.7 in particular?

[euklidis]

Duke;59141']yea but like my Retail 980x can do better than some ES and people would question it. There are some good retail chips out there. they are far and few between and people would start flagging saying i tried to hide my ES chip status.

 

yeah but i guess if there are doubts you can prove it with a video if you had an ES would you risk getting banned?

[euklidis]

IHS can be lapped. Plus, it's not like you always have a video camera around when you're benching... and where do we set the limit? You say 6.7, why 6.7 in particular?

 

6.7 was an example, btw andre said that he can bench with retail @ 6.7+

[Massman]

Video is an option when a cpus hits 6.7 for example....

 

Duke;59141']yea but like my Retail 980x can do better than some ES and people would question it. There are some good retail chips out there. they are far and few between and people would start flagging saying i tried to hide my ES chip status.

 

But would that make HWBOT so much more fun?

 

Imagine you benching this golden CPU and then realize that you need video + photo proof to show people you're not using an illegal CPU? With the risk that people will say you manipulated the video in some way?

 

In theory it's a solution' date=' but in practice it's just not an option, I think.

 

We can... contact FutureMark and ask them for a better system info add-on...

 

On #2 massman, just like you can make CPU-z say retail instead of ES, you can mipmap AquaMark 3 and post an image with altered CPU clocks to go with the higher score...

 

Why do you post things like this?

 

You know as well as I do that the ES flag is a hardware issue that cannot be solved with better software. The example of AMD is perfect: no software can detect it's an engineering sample IF the CPU is branded as retail. The engineering sample as we know it is just 'a piece of silicon with the brand ES'.

 

Even if the CPU itself is flagged as ES, mainboard manufacturers can adjust the microcode in the bios so that the ES flag will not be 1. Or: ES samples will appear as normal retail.

[$@39@]

That's true but you can give a try. I don't think that it's too difficult for someone has a golden retail to bench 50 Mhz less for a video. And I say 50 Mhz less in order to avoid a bsod or a crash or something else that will avoid someone from doing it.

[euklidis]

But would that make HWBOT so much more fun?

 

Imagine you benching this golden CPU and then realize that you need video + photo proof to show people you're not using an illegal CPU? With the risk that people will say you manipulated the video in some way?

 

In theory it's a solution, but in practice it's just not an option, I think.

 

 

 

Why do you post things like this?

 

You know as well as I do that the ES flag is a hardware issue that cannot be solved with better software. The example of AMD is perfect: no software can detect it's an engineering sample IF the CPU is branded as retail. The engineering sample as we know it is just 'a piece of silicon with the brand ES'.

 

Even if the CPU itself is flagged as ES, mainboard manufacturers can adjust the microcode in the bios so that the ES flag will not be 1. Or: ES samples will appear as normal retail.

 

So you agree that companies and 10-20 guys here destroyed the oc league and the chance for equal competition...

[[GF]Duke]

Doing a video while pouring 2 or 3 pots and running the pc would totally suck. yea peple do it for live feeds al the time. but to have to do it everytime just because i have this golden chip, would be another "this is total BS' argument. And would create a ton of problems. A person could take a photo of a retail chip and bench a ES chip. Who's to say he didn't? i agree. it's very complicated and all venues have to be explored. This is why everyones input means somthing. arguing about it solves nothing. Coming up with a reasonable suggestion like video is a good idea. Kudos for thinking of that solution even though it may not be feasable. Its still a good suggestion. It is clear that a way of defining the chip/product is the first step.

Edited June 6, 2010 by [GF]Duke

[Bustah]

In an Ideal world we would have an even playing field, but we dont live in an ideal world. If the cherry es trend we are seeing is in fact deliberate promotion tactics by the manufturers, then like Massman says it will change nothing the 'chosen few' who get those cpus will still get the equivalent with a retail label attached however it is done, its kinda sad but its fact.

 

Maybe the only answer is to split the rankings categories but of course the problems with that are huge. some ppl get the odd mobo and nothing else from sponsors like myself, would it be fair for someone like me to be in a super league under those conditions? so in short policing that and defining who gets FULL support and who gets a little is a whole other story/ problem.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Bustah

[chuchnit]

In an Ideal world we would have an even playing field, but we dont live in an ideal world. If the cherry es trend we are seeing is in fact deliberate promotion tactics by the manufturers, then like Massman says it will change nothing the 'chosen few' who get those cpus will still get the equivalent with a retail label attached however it is done, its kinda sad but its fact.

 

Maybe the only answer is to split the rankings categories but of course the problems with that are huge. some ppl get the odd mobo and nothing else from sponsors like myself, would it be fair for me to be in a super league under those conditions? so in short policing that and defining who gets FULL support and who gets a little is a whole other story/ problem.

 

 

The pro league would for sure be small. It would seem like the manufacturers would push their benchers to join the category. Surely they want to show THEIR product is better than the other companies? This would be a great venue to showcase that. Manufacturer leagues.

[euklidis]

In an Ideal world we would have an even playing field, but we dont live in an ideal world. If the cherry es trend we are seeing is in fact deliberate promotion tactics by the manufturers, then like Massman says it will change nothing the 'chosen few' who get those cpus will still get the equivalent with a retail label attached however it is done, its kinda sad but its fact.

 

Maybe the only answer is to split the rankings categories but of course the problems with that are huge. some ppl get the odd mobo and nothing else from sponsors like myself, would it be fair for me to be in a super league under those conditions? so in short policing that and defining who gets FULL support and who gets a little is a whole other story/ problem.

 

spliting in 2 categories is a good idea... one with sponsors and one without. At the first companies will advertise themserlves in public and in the second sponsors are not allowed... either ES cpus and ES gpus or ES mobos

[Bustah]

I get retail mobos for review, then I bench them, do you think that puts me in a super league? this is what im saying how would this be policed/ moderated?

[BenchZowner]

Video proof is not as hard some people like to make it look it is.

Setup ready only the pot not mounted.

Video the CPU's IHS ( you lapped it ? I don't care, you shouldn't have, there's no gain, maybe to cover up the usage of ES CPU ? ), keep filming ( yeah I know it's hard to do it on your own, and it's also very hard to have somebody there to handle the camera... ), mount the pot, boot, cpu-z live validation at the benching frequency, and a "diagnostic" run at the same or very similar clocks.

 

Nice and clear, no doubts.

[BenchZowner]

My respect to the 2 people who bench with ES 980X and 670 and have good scores with them and voted against using ES CPUs

[Bustah]

Honestly it wont solve the problem but I think its a gesture that should be made by hwbot imo. The debate keeps coming up and its not likely to go away anytime soon, the simple fact that ES are not retail [owned by the bencher legally] should really be enough.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Bustah

[Hondacity]

retail have boxes.....pics of those boxes...easy enough for proof... ES on the other hand ..welll lmao its ES

 

lapped processors...bs..how can we get rma

 

only need to moderate top 50 ....easy work for mods.....seriously speaking....and laughing at the same time..coz its easy

 

 

VOTE BUMP

[knopflerbruce]

retail have boxes.....pics of those boxes...easy enough for proof... ES on the other hand ..welll lmao its ES

 

lapped processors...bs..how can we get rma

 

only need to moderate top 50 ....easy work for mods.....seriously speaking....and laughing at the same time..coz its easy

 

 

VOTE BUMP

 

I have 450 CPUs or something, and not one damn box. I'm not sure I'm alone or not in my way of buying stuff, but I get alot of parts from ebay, and to reduce shipping costs I always ask people to throw away the boxes, as I really don't need them at all. Sometimes I even buy stuff where the original owner threw it away. Yes, retails have boxes, but women throw them away if they manage to get into your house:o

 

The guys with infinite cash and a bad IHS can lap an expensive chip without worrying too much. Creating a rule that doesn't allow one to squeeze out the maximum of the chip is as far away from the whole point behind overclocking as you can get:D Plus, if you really want an RMA, you buy another chip, remove the IHS, and RMA the old chip with the new IHS glued onto the core:p You've also got some thermal stuff that makes the heatspreaders unreadable, don't you? Thermal grease limitation? Hmmmmm....

[BenchZowner]

Man all these excuses sound like OPB to me...

If this and this and that and this... not maximizing the performance on LN2 without lapping ? Sorry but that's pretty much ridiculous, the IHS's of the i7s are very good, and I haven't seen any core i7 with an IHS that makes you lap it to get the cpu down to a good temp.

 

Ceramique makes the CPU IHS undreadable ? Maybe if you leave it on the CPU for 24 years.

[knopflerbruce]

Man all these excuses sound like OPB to me...

If this and this and that and this... not maximizing the performance on LN2 without lapping ? Sorry but that's pretty much ridiculous, the IHS's of the i7s are very good, and I haven't seen any core i7 with an IHS that makes you lap it to get the cpu down to a good temp.

 

Ceramique makes the CPU IHS undreadable ? Maybe if you leave it on the CPU for 24 years.

 

There are other stuff than ceramique around, right?

 

IHS's may be good enough TODAY, but maybe not when the next generation chips are available. In the AMD days people used to lap their chip all the time, and I believe a fair share did it with the wolfdales as well. So why not in the future?

 

Personally I'm not against changes, but all these weird ideas create new problems - which means the improvement is limited. I shouldn't have to keep 450 boxes in case someone wants to check that I bought a retail. IT'S INSANE!

 

I have no clue if ceramique does, but there are other types people use... if something does it, then we should say "no, that thermal paste is banned from HWBot"?

 

Next step asking people to give some sort of GPS tracking so we know they haven't visited any manufacturers to handpick samples?

[T_M]

I do not like competing with retail against someone who has binned 20+ ES for free and benching 6.7GHz vs my 'regular' 6.1.

That said i still love seeing those results, thus my vote was obvious

[Kal-EL]

I do not like competing with retail against someone who has binned 20+ ES for free and benching 6.7GHz vs my 'regular' 6.1.

That said i still love seeing those results, thus my vote was obvious

 

We all love the crazy scores by skilled champions but it'd sure be nice to have some hope of competing somewhere.