Xtreme Addict Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) This topic is about MOA 2011 edition in Poland. On Friday we'll have live competition to raise the winner to represent Poland. But MSI-POLAND invited only TWO teams to fight. That's an EPIC FAIL. Going back to 2009 year, we had great big live competition of 5 best teams in Poland which were selected from online qualifications. In 2010 MOA in Poland was dismissed because ryba & Chaos had won EU finals in 2009 and they got straight ticket to EU finals in 2010. This year edition was really doubtful but "someone" ordered to organise MOA despite the fact that there was pushing to select only ryba (and he pushed the most on polish department). So polish department invited only two teams for a live show. How is it possible to organize competition, contest where chances are 50/50? They don't give a chance to new faces in this sport, and during 2 years everything changes. Selection was based on results from MOA 2009 year, they invited 2 first places: ryba + Borko and Team PCLab. During this 2 years everything changes. Old polish legends stopped overclocking and new overclockers appeared which are really good and compete with old dogs. I am not invited because on MOA 2009 I had been third. In 2010 in Poland had place two competitions: GOOC (I was 2, first was ryba) and Asus Championship of Poland (which I won on 29.10.2010), at this moment polish overclocking community regards me as the best overclocker in Poland, I don't claim that I am the best, I don't have on my account successes like ryba (MOA, GOOC) but now I am doing more results than my competitors and they don't beat me but I mainly publish on Polish forums. Everything changes. Moreover I try to help new faces, there are new big teams which started after MOA 2009 and they score really good, I am convinced that they will outrun us sooner or later, they are capable of doing this. It personally touched me, this whole situation and I admit it. I was apologized later by MSI -Poland and they admitted that it is really hurting me. But in that situation I want also to fight for others. In Poland it is very hard to promote self and to obtain samples to overclock, the only chance for more advanced users are contests. Asus in the end of 2010 proved that they are able to organise the biggest competition in Poland ever in 2 weeks. MSI-Poland told me that MSI-Taiwan forbids to organise online competition in Poland without a reason. MSI - Poland got only budget for only 2 platforms, they couldn't organise 3 cheaper (for instance cheaper GPUs like GTX 560 Ti instead of 580 GTX) because they have to promote models which were chosen by Taiwan. Seemingly polish department was fighting to organise more budget from Taiwan, they were negotiating almost 3 weeks, even bosses from Taiwan arrived to Poland to discuss few things and also MOA. They refused to organise more than 2 teams on live show. Polished department opposed and then Taiwan told them to organise 2 team battle or to choose one team directly to EU finals. My question is why? The idea of MOA is to emerge the best overclockers from all the country to represent further. Everyone should have the same rights, the same chances. It's organised in order to show some potential of products, to promote this mad sport , to obtain some experience, to teach and learn. If those aspects are abandoned, is there any sense of arranging MOA? MSI Taiwan wants only 2 teams in live contest, okay, but on god sake organise online eliminations! in order to give a chance to everyone! and two first places will struggle in live show... is that SO HARD!? Online contest doesn't cost, maybe a bit of effort, but it's worth of it! Polish community is treated really badly by MSI Taiwan and MSI Poland isn't capable of dealing with it or they are afraid of Taiwan. We want to fight for our rights, in fact we are their customers, we promote them, we overclock or use their hardware. We are writing a petition to MSI Taiwan and to Polish department. In this sport we need fair play, I hope that all overclockers want to fight internationally with honesty and dignity and just competitions with the same chances. We are afraid, that the next year we will get the same script, teams which "struggled" in 2011 will fight face to face once again, or the winner of 2011 will get another direct ticket to 2012... We need some support from You, if more and more users will declare, more chances we have. We are conscious that now it's too late (but we were informed on Friday) and nobody is able to change it without delays but they should if they care about customers. But in fact this sort of protest is to secure the future of MOA in Poland and to make everyone equal. We just don't want to be treated like castaways, in fact Poland is a very big and important market for MSI and they should treat us rightly. Polish community also integrates with for instance Spain, where there wasn't any MOA qualification ever. You can count on our votes. Edited March 21, 2011 by Xtreme Addict Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d3mox Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 It's not fair that the other overclockers in Poland can't participate in MOA 2011 qualifications. I wish, that the MSI will organize NORMAL qualifications for others ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta198 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Yep, this is not fair for other overcloker's from poland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Leeghoofd Posted March 21, 2011 Crew Share Posted March 21, 2011 MSI needs to pick up the pace (and that's in general) they have many more (un)organised compos going for MOA... Would be good to have the same set of rules for everybody and not make a selection for the happy few... At Cebit nothing for the competition was final for some countries... a far too late start in organising stuff... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Hm. I don't think HQ is dictating the Polish office on what to do with the local qualifier. The procedure is different in every country and largely depends on what the local office wants to do. The keyword in this issue is: budget. As far as I know, the local office gets the opportunity to do something for MOA, but they can decline (eg: Spain) if they don't have the time/money. In your particular case, I reckon HQ is indeed asking for the live finals to be held with specific hardware (they supply that hardware, maybe?) and only a limited quantity is available. The limited amount of teams is not the goal, but a consequence of the policy. I don't know why there wasn't an online pre-qualifier, though. We've been doing this for quite some time now and it doesn't take that much effort to create a 3-stage online qualifier. Just need an email ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaPaKaH Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 These comps are never meant to be fair anyway, more of a marketing stunt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|ron Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) I don't know what to think about MOA... here in italy, there was an online qualification session, the benches were 3dm11 and PI 32M, no hardware limits, no cooling limits, and the same website that hosts the competition also takes part to the qualifications with their clockers... Me and my team, simply didn't take part in the qualifications, because we don't have a 980x, a gtx580 etc, so we were forced off that competition because we don't have loads of cash to buy top end hardware. I proposed to adopt rules similar to France qualifications, with limited frequencies etc... it would have been more fair for everybody that doesn't have a 2.500euros rig to see who are the best clockers in tweaks and optimizations. Theid said (the hosting overclocking website) to ask directly to MSI, because they didn't have any role in writing the rules. So, here we are! Maxi, I explained the situation we have Italy that it's quite different from you... do you think you can "merge" and add also our country to the petition, to see some changes for the next years? Edited March 21, 2011 by |ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 One important sidenote here is that this competition is not just about overclockers, but about 'extreme overclockers'. Basically, you want people representing your country that understand the system that is being benched on and that understand how liquid nitrogen works. There needs to be a balance between opening the qualifications for as much people as possible and not setting them up in a way basically everyone, regardless of experience/skill, can win. An example. In last year's MOA EU 2010, the hardware was 980X + GTX480. If you have no experience with liquid nitrogen, you simply can't do well in the competition due to the necessity of understanding coldbug/coldbootbug behavior. Also, someone with no X58 experience is doomed to fail: there's a delicate balance between the various voltages (vcore, vtt), frequencies (unc affect dram) and of course performance (low uncore means low performance). There needs to be a basic understanding of all this to be able to defend your country's honor in an international competition. Software tweaks and optimisations are nice, but the essence of 'overclocking' is not tuning the software, but increasing the operating frequencies. That being said, I think it's not a bad idea to have mainstream hardware in the qualifications, as long as the competition is set up in a way that the skill to increase performance through overclocking is a significant part of the process. I do think open qualifiers are a must, but not in a way that any average-joe can win and represent the country in an international renowned competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|ron Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 The "average joe" can qualify and go straight to the live national event... here, if he doesn't know what LN2 is, he will be beaten by the other guys who will then go on to the european stage. Your thought is correct Pieter, but the fact is that we have a lot of experience with LN2 (almost 4 years now), but we simply can't buy high end hardware like 990x and gtx580 (I wrote "we", but I think that there are other people with the same problem arount the world ) So we couldn't enter the competition, but an "average joe", with a good liquid cooling system and a 990x+gtx580, yes. We can put under ln2 our 2600K, our 5870, but there's no way to beat a 5ghz 980x and a beast like the 580 at 3DM11. That is simply unfair I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 You have a valid argument, there . If you would've been in charge of the pre-selection in Italy, how would you have set up the rules? Taking into account that people who have skill, but not (enough) money would be capable of qualifying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|ron Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Mmhh I think we have at least 2 good examples of well organized comps: - MSI MOA 2011 France: http://www.cowcotland.com/topic5762.html - Gigabyte GOOC National Qualifiers India 2010: http://www.techtree.com/India/News/Gigabyte_Announces_GOOC_2010_Competition/551-110916-581.html In the first case, I think that HW restrictions are too tight... they could allow to use SB because the higher priced CPU is the 2600K and it costs about 300euros, not 900/1000. The good point is that they selected 2D benchmarks only, pulling away the "vga problem" as I was saying in the previous post. In the second case I think that: # No i7 Gulftowns and i7 OR i5 based Xeons. # No engineering samples may be used. these two restrictions are clear as water, simply to apply and they permit also to have a wider range of partecipating users! So, my suggestions are based on a "mix" between those two comps: - No ES, no extreme CPUs (so, no Gulftowns and Xeons) - for the 3D section: HW restriction to the second or third performing VGA by ATi or Nvidia (so, today, GTX560 or HD6870) That way, overclocking an i7 950/960 is quite the same than a 980x, the "platform" is an X58 board. The VGA is taken from the same architecture and generation of the top performing available on the market, but it costs a half. If you're good in Vmodding, cooling down with LN2, optimizing the O.S., then I think you're ready to go and represent your country even if you'll be using top end HW given by MSI... You deserved that partecipation to the next international stage if you have beaten guys (with HW restrictions) that also had experiences with gtx580 and 980x! p.s: oh, and one last thing... hosting website should NOT be someone who takes part in the competition. It's weird I think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Just had a conversation with MSI about this particular topic. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the local pre-selections is the responsibility of the local offices. Basically, HQ sends out a notice to the local offices that, if they want to, they can participate in the MOA competition. How they arrange for a participant to join the competition is their problem. This means, all costs concerning the local qualifier have to be carried by the local office. If a local office has no budget, manpower or interest to organize this, they can also decline or just select someone to go. I don't really know what is exactly the reason for the situation in Poland, but as far as I'm allowed to make an estimated guess I would assume that the local office decided to only make a live one-on-one between the two most known (?) Polish overclockers because of the limited time-frame. Organizing an online qualifier now seems almost impossible due to the time between now and the EMEA final in Istanbul. That there are only two teams might very well be because of hardware or budget limitations. How they end up in this situation, I don't know (iirc, there was some change of people in the office), but the fact that this is the situation is understandible. That there is no qualifier in Spain is, most likely, because the Spanish representative declined on the event. Again, this is a choice made by the local office, not HQ. The main issue I see here is that all local offices can decide themselves to join this (marketing) event. If there's no incentive for them to do so, for instance sales or exposure, they will most likely not put any effort in joining. Now, one could argue that HQ should just take over. Yes, but there's quite a big problem with that: HQ does not have the authority to hold local events. Every office is responsible of what happens in the local market and the policy is that HQ will not intervene. As far as I know, the HQ did give the advice to contact HWBOT for online pre-selections, but I'm sure that if the local office is not familiar with HWBOT they just won't consider this. Ideally, HQ would be in charge of everything and would ask us to set up a series of online competitions covering all the regions and countries. Reality says, however, that this is a decision the CM (country managers) make together with the local offices. In the Americas, we worked something out (http://hwbot.org/competition/moa2011_americas), for EMEA we didn't. For future evens, I'll draw up a proposal for online pre-selections at HWBOT. It would be easy/great if the benchmark stages and limitations would be the same in every region. This proposal would be just a solution in case the local office does not want to do any effort themselves. Of course some offices do great (eg: France, Ukraine, Benelux) and don't really need any help. @ |ron: Looks good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSA OC TEAM Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Similar things in Iran . Matrix ( Middle East MSI Distributer ) decided to send some of their employed overclockers to the MOA without any qualification and It's not fair for sure . It's not about money I think , because at least local offices could arrange some online qualifications with very low budget it's more about their marketing strategies and promote their loyal overclockers . Overclockers who had marketing benefits for them in the past . IMO , Credit of these events like GOOC and MOA is based on how they're popular in the community and more people agreeing on recognizing these events as a international fair events . Because in this way they'll be like world cup for soccer players . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew Leeghoofd Posted March 24, 2011 Crew Share Posted March 24, 2011 Starting to organise everything well in advance would also help... Pretty funny to see some people still inquiring for tips to organise a qualifier at ahum Cebit... Last sentence I overheard : time/hardware is no restriction,... Yeah right... Running the online qualifier show via Hwbot could already releave some of the stress... A strict set of rules with an affordable hardware combo, could attract a lot more people... then just a live showdown for the final spots... shouldn't be that hard to work out... IF all is well organised and initiated well in advance... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|ron Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 quote for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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