Are the The Sandy Bridge killing the art of overclocking?

[rbuass]

I want to open a discussion here, to see the opinions of friends, and if possible change something about it.

We have observed a negative scenario for overclockers, because Sandy Bridge, provide many points even for people who do not have much technical knowledge.

Any lucky person who purchases a 2500K or 2600k, can easily climb many positions, and for that, only very simple settings in the BIOS (in my opinion, the platform is easier to adjust, and also uses voltages low enough, and very low risk - diferent to bench LN2 VGAs for exemple).

To make the situation worse, this platform greatly increases the chance of great results, 3D benchmarks like 01, 03 and Unigine heaven (do not need much CPU).

Today we can already see the Sandy Bridge coming close to 6 GHz, and that with the effort to get lucky to buy (or make) a good CPU (and sure, is better to have knowledge to get best scores, but not a lot of knowledge to get very good scores only with a lucky CPU).

The question is.

Is not it time the 3D benchmarks are more valuable than the 2D benchmarks? (once to run a Vantage record is hard to get than a 2D Record...and sure...3D needs more knowledge and more risk to kill hardware)

Besides being much easier to adjust and control the 2D benchmarks do not require adjustments more difficult (which are those of VGA) and few times requires hardmods and modifications.

My opinion is that the 3D points should be enough higher than 2D, because it requires much more knowledge, and the luck factor does not weigh much in the results.

Thus we do not see systems like Sandy Bridge, killing the overclock and making only one factor whose luck has a weight so great (obviously not putting down the results to cost a lot of work and tweaks)

This is just my opinion and would like to know of other overclockers.

 

 

Sorry the broken english

 

Regards

[Massman]

Just want to show two screenshots:

 

 

The difference between #1 and #20 is 14 seconds for Sandy Bridge and 43 seconds for Gulftown.

 

I understand your point of view as Sandy Bridge brings the very obvious non-scaling with extreme cold (perhaps scaling to -40°C or so), but from another point of view it has brought back overclocking to memory tweaking and software optimisations (which is what many people still regard as the "nicest period in oc history"). I think this is just a different end of the history-curve and brings its own challenges and skill requirements. In June, we'll see another move to extreme cold.

[Kal-EL]

Just want to show two screenshots:

 

 

The difference between #1 and #20 is 14 seconds for Sandy Bridge and 43 seconds for Gulftown.

 

I understand your point of view as Sandy Bridge brings the very obvious non-scaling with extreme cold (perhaps scaling to -40°C or so), but from another point of view it has brought back overclocking to memory tweaking and software optimisations (which is what many people still regard as the "nicest period in oc history"). I think this is just a different end of the history-curve and brings its own challenges and skill requirements. In June, we'll see another move to extreme cold.

Promise?

[K404]

Yea, this is just something a bit new, I don't think this is how it will always be from now on

 

A64 was best on a waterchiller, I guess Sandy Bridge chips are too

 

[|ron]

I'm posting my team point of view about SB.

We haven't money to buy 980x/gtx580 etc... so we went through a nightmare in 2010, we couldn't keep the first italian position in team rankings, because everybody else was benching with 980x/gtx480/5870CF etc...etc...

Yes, we gathered points, of course, but only little scores here and there, with a 975 at 5,3GHz at war with 6+GHz 980x.

Globals not available for 3D section, because if you haven't the top VGA available on the market, you simply can't arrive to the first spots.

So, true, SB is waaaaaay easier to overclock than Bloomfield, but it's even priced at 1/3 comparing to a 980x, so that teams like mine could come back in benching, hoping to obtain something good!

In fact, in the last 3 months, we earned roughly 700pts in 2D and 3D!

Just an example, a few days ago I benched my 4870... as you can see here: http://hwbot.org/hardware/videocard/radeon_hd_4870?tab=rankings#/manufacturer.rankings.do?applicationId=1&manufacturer=ati&hardwareTypeId=GPU_1361&hardwareType=GPU&tabid=gpubenchmarks

 

if you select "1x", you'll see that AOC is in 18th place... I have the highest frequency but not a good 2600K... People in top5 have a good vga and also good CPUs.

So your question about "Noobs clockers using SB on air, owning skilled people that use LN2 since years" is quite wrong I think, because even skilled people can buy one of them, bench it and do pwnage on the results of the so-called "n00bs"

As Pieter just said, optimization and tweaks aren't something that everyone who's buying a 2600K knows. So someone who's skilled and someone who's not, if both of them buy the same cpu, surely the first one will get better scores (supposing the cpus run at a comparable frequency of course ).

The problem is with the 980x, because someone who can't buy one, is completely out of the competition.

So my thought about SB is that, even taking in account all the problems of this platform/architecture, it is finally a breeze of fresh air for overclocking for non-supported people!

[knopflerbruce]

The main difference is the money you have to buy to be able to get a complete setup. You still need subzero to get 5.7+ results, so if you're too scared to run your chip that way you'll still be behind - although alot closer than before. This is not bad at all, in any way. You still have to tweak AND have a good chip to get good scores.

[rbuass]

c'mon

The view I'm talking about, does not take merit to overclock with Sandy Bridge.

What I'm asking is whether an Overclock 3D, which is much harder to do, should be worth more points than the 2D.

Say you need to tweak memory and good tweaks to Copy Waza or have a light windows is a good argument, but say it can compare to a mod or Hipro Shamino is not wanting to see reality.

I am not rich and live in a country where hardware is much more difficult to buy and to obtain than in countries like USA and Taiwan, but why not let to recognize what is more difficult.

The settings of hardware (memory and CPU) are strongly needed for testing 3D.

As for my point of view, Sandy Bridge is killing the art of Overclocking "a living because overclocking is a much easier where the luck factor and have a good pair of memories has more validity than a good knowledge.

As the observation of "Iron", say you're much more concerned with the position of your teammates than to see the reality.

In my view, the facts that require more knowledge, which are more difficult and require more risk and dedication should be rewarded with more points.

So I think a very wrong person to buy a chip and do a lot of points awarded.

For me 3D>> 2D in terms of difficulty, so should be worth more points.

About rev.4 on, I hope it benchmarks that are more difficult and require more knowledge and dedication are rewarded with more points.

IMHO.

[Christian Ney]

On my side I deserve a lot more merit to the hardware ranking than the global ranking.

 

Skill and knowledge is showed with all hardware possible and imaginable. And you don't need the latest stuff available on the market

 

I love testing hardware and mixing components

[Kal-EL]

Overclockers League spend loads of money on hardware and if they want to

stay competitive in the rankings and must spend on latest hardware release or

do binning.

 

Hardware Masters were more stable prior to SandyBridge in the gpu category.

Now they must go back and bench their gpu's on SB to stay on top or in range.

 

I agree that SandyBridge has taken alot of the old investment in settings tweaking

and electronic manipulation out of the overclocking scene and made zero's into

hero's, literally over night. However, the old timers with tricks and tweaks should

still be hanging right in there with lucky chips.

 

Performance and how to gain performance varies between platform and vendor naturally.

Hwbot set itself up based on these variables and tried to balance the

equation. I'll presume they took all the assumed concerns into consideration like

the skill factor.

 

Now SandyBridge is here, should Hwbot uproot its current system because of it?

Personally, I don't think so. I think we should brave the storm and await the next

generation from Intel which promises to require more intiment knowledge of components

and possibly require more electronic intervention (hard mods) to squeeze out better results.

 

It doesnt make sense for Hwbot to change everything now and then be forced to

revert back to the older system of points when the winds change yet again.

Seems like it would be a waste of time.

If we knew that things would be like SB for a long time (few generations) then it'd make sense to me to change.

 

Overclockers adapt to every other change in hardware variable, like stellar

non-reference releases or required binning or suckle-ware or Board A which

does much higher fsb than Board B or having to use xyz platform for Bench a,b,c.

If things were to stay this way over the next few generations,

overclockers would just be forced to FIND a way to release more performance

from their systems to set themselves apart from others. Sometimes we get

lucky and an engineer from intel secretly leaks out a pin mod that unlocks

multipliers or something similar. But, overclockers are never held back for long.

 

Adaptation and resourcefullness is part of the game. How deep your pocket, lucky your purchase,

how well you suckle for your hardware and deep your knowledge of a

platform decides how far at the top of the rankings you'll be.

 

Anyways, yah, I agree that SandyBridge is a significant change to the scene but I think we should wait it out.

 

On a positive note, confidence is at an all time high in the noob section and participation looks to be pretty darn high with SandyBridge. The more the merrier if you ask me

 

Kal

[Christian Ney]

Hardware Masters were more stable prior to SandyBridge in the gpu category.

Now they must go back and bench their gpu's on SB to stay on top or in range.

 

I agree that SandyBridge has taken alot of the old investment in settings tweaking

and electronic manipulation out of the overclocking scene and made zero's into

hero's, literally over night. However, the old timers with tricks and tweaks should

still be hanging right in there with lucky chips.

 

Edited April 4, 2011 by Christian Ney

[knopflerbruce]

c'mon

The view I'm talking about, does not take merit to overclock with Sandy Bridge.

What I'm asking is whether an Overclock 3D, which is much harder to do, should be worth more points than the 2D.

Say you need to tweak memory and good tweaks to Copy Waza or have a light windows is a good argument, but say it can compare to a mod or Hipro Shamino is not wanting to see reality.

I am not rich and live in a country where hardware is much more difficult to buy and to obtain than in countries like USA and Taiwan, but why not let to recognize what is more difficult.

The settings of hardware (memory and CPU) are strongly needed for testing 3D.

As for my point of view, Sandy Bridge is killing the art of Overclocking "a living because overclocking is a much easier where the luck factor and have a good pair of memories has more validity than a good knowledge.

As the observation of "Iron", say you're much more concerned with the position of your teammates than to see the reality.

In my view, the facts that require more knowledge, which are more difficult and require more risk and dedication should be rewarded with more points.

So I think a very wrong person to buy a chip and do a lot of points awarded.

For me 3D>> 2D in terms of difficulty, so should be worth more points.

About rev.4 on, I hope it benchmarks that are more difficult and require more knowledge and dedication are rewarded with more points.

IMHO.

 

Some 3D benchmarks already get WR bonus boints, so what you're talking about is already taken into account. Plus, there are more 3D benchmarks than 2D (8 VS 6 + PCMark05) so by running 3D you can get a LOT more points than just running 2D.

[rbuass]

Bonus Extra only to 4way/3Way cards, and not for all.

I don t consider PCmark (don t like cuz "TO ME" is a "Hard Disk" bench), but is only my opinion...

To me, will be many more easy a lucky guy climb in the ranking....

I hope i can be lucky and find a cherry chip...

 

What diference really get points???

 

3DM01 ---- CPUZ

3DM03 ---- PCM05

3DM05 ---- Pifast

3DM06 ---- SPI1M

Vantage ---- SPI32

AM3 ---- WPrime 32

Unigine DX11 ---- WPrime 1024

Edited April 4, 2011 by rbuass

[Massman]

You actually have a better chip than many others ...

[rbuass]

You actually have a better chip than many others ...

 

Possible...but i am looking for a 6GB chip like Booooon to get about 500 CPU points

[Massman]

And I want a 1500MHz GTX580 to get 500 GPU points.

[rbuass]

That s the question...

To do the same, will need VGPU Mod, VRAM mod, VPLL Mod, CB Mod, OCP Mod...eg...and try lots and lots of times and tweaks...and sure...to do a hard overclock in the CPU too

 

P.S. mine is a crap GTX 580...no more than 1394 Mhz and i killed trying to get better

[knopflerbruce]

Bonus Extra only to 4way/3Way cards, and not for all.

I don t consider PCmark (don t like cuz "TO ME" is a "Hard Disk" bench), but is only my opinion...

To me, will be many more easy a lucky guy climb in the ranking....

I hope i can be lucky and find a cherry chip...

 

What diference really get points???

 

3DM01 ---- CPUZ

3DM03 ---- PCM05

3DM05 ---- Pifast

3DM06 ---- SPI1M

Vantage ---- SPI32

AM3 ---- WPrime 32

Unigine DX11 ---- WPrime 1024

 

Sure people will get lucky with Sandy Bridge, but a part of the game is indeed to get the good hardware. To stay near the top you need both good HW AND skill. Plus, SB isn't good for either CPUZ or wprime. You can get some Ok scores in superpi 1m and 32m if you've got a REALLY golden chip, but if you take golden chips into account, GT still owns.

[Massman]

That s the question...

To do the same, will need VGPU Mod, VRAM mod, VPLL Mod, CB Mod, OCP Mod...eg...and try lots and lots of times and tweaks...and sure...to do a hard overclock in the CPU too

 

P.S. mine is a crap GTX 580...no more than 1394 Mhz and i killed trying to get better

 

To quote Shamino:

 

it would have been cool if i actually had to work hard for it but this time round it was just soldering some wires, VRs, mount a pot and pour. Its hard to screw up if a good card drops into your hands i guess

 

Yes, sometimes it's hard work. Sometimes it's not that much work. For instance, I had the best GTX275 in my hands and could run 100MHz higher than all others ... only soldered vmem mod and didn't even us it. It's the same when hardware is just released: some have ability to buy 4 samples at once, use the best one and get top result. Maybe not best skill, but just ability to bench it.