Hd 3870x2

[bazx]

Whilst these cards are “single slot cards”

They are 2 separate chip/cores on one card and as such are defeating the point of single card benching imo

 

Should these cards that come out once a year have the "Own Ranking"

 

As the true single card “one chip/core” cards are being removed from the rankings by these units

 

i feel like i have been racing a car all season with one engine and at the last race of the year

cars with two engines have been entered in my class and have won the day

 

thanks baz

 

3D03: rankings below

 

1. 78022 marks - CapFTP (Tecnocomputer.it) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 931/1080mhz)

94.3 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

 

2. 76450 marks - pro (i4memory.com) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 918/1098mhz)

75.5 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

 

3. 75734 marks - boblemagnifique (OverClocking-Masters) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 904/1071mhz)

66 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

 

4. 74568 marks - jimmyz (XtremeSystems) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 900/1060mhz)

61.1 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

 

5. 71407 marks - gprhellas (H.O.T. (Hellas O/C Team)) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 880/1050mhz)

56.3 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

 

6. 70440 marks - geoffrey (OC-Team.Be) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 900/1050mhz)

54.3 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

 

7. 70346 marks - eleven (OutOfSpecs.Gr) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 855/955mhz)

52.8 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

 

8. 69594 marks - ncsa (i4memory.com) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 825/901mhz)

51.3 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

 

9. 69499 marks - No_Name (AwardFabrik) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 825/900mhz)

49.8 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

 

10. 69483 marks - T_M (i4memory.com) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 825/900mhz)

[bazx]

i disaree

 

the consumer here at hwbot buy one card a year to bench and that ranking is hard fort

 

the scores being put out by these cards is up there with sli/fire so would be better grouped with them by score/potential

 

or we will have a single card top 20 with no single chip/cored cards in it

[Massman]

the consumer here at hwbot buy one card a year to bench and that ranking is hard fort

 

But the consumer can buy ONE card, the 3870 X2, and bench it as well, no?

 

Physically, it's one card with 2 gpu's. That's what ATI provides for the ultimate gaming experiance. If it's indeed this powerful, kudos to ATI and good for those who are able to bench with the cards.

[bazx]

"But the consumer can buy ONE card, the 3870 X2, and bench it as well, no?"

 

hehe so you would have a top 20 with just the card "3870 X2"

 

we could call it the

 

 

hwbot ATI 3870 X2 competition

 

 

and remove the single card rankings altogether

 

at this rate there will be no "true single card" rankings within 10 days

 

just ati 3870 x2

[Massman]

Bazx, that's what happens when new hardware is released. You could have made the exact same comment when the 8800GTX was launched: "HWBot Nvidia 8800 competition".

 

New hardware pops up and we try to divide them in competitions as fair/straight-forwarded as possible. That card is ONE card, so it shouldn't compete with systems that have TWO cards, I believe?

[bazx]

Imho the only division that completely fair is division by price range.

 

this would make no difference to the situation these cards would still be messing up the single card rankings

 

no one single card can beat one of these units and as such should not be in the single card rankings

 

 

they have 2x cores/chips, it is totally unfair to group these units with 1x core/chip units

 

when they have more in common with sli/fire

[bazx]

It always been like this, bazx. The fastest card is at the top... no-one complained when the 8800U ruled the rankings.

 

you are both missing my point the examples you point out

 

are ultra and gtx both these units are single core/chip

 

so belong in the single card rankings

 

 

2x chipcards cannot be taken down by the single card /core/chip units

so are un-beatable

 

in this class

[bazx]

They have technically more in common with sli/cf configurations, I agree.

 

But practically, they have all the same characteristics as single card configurations: same price range, no special motherboard. Whether they internally differ from other cards does not matter for the consumer.

 

I follow your logic, but if you think like that you can only have fun within one hw category.

 

 

 

i can only afford to have fun in one category and have been benching it here and at FM for years

[bazx]

can cards be grouped by number of GPU instead of slot

 

this would solve the ranking problem as i see it

[Massman]

IIRC, FM has problems with dividing certain categories into single/sli, no?

 

In understand exactly what you mean, but I'm afraid we'll stick to the single vs multiple card system we have now.

 

Sorry if this does not fullfil your needs

[K404]

Im not massively happy with the X2 as a single card, but i can see both sides of the argument.

 

Whenever a new top-end card comes out, yup its total dominance, but this card does feel like a cheat slightly (on ATIs part, and soon to be nVs as well)

 

3DM03 is already a total writeoff for all other cards, but heres hoping its more hassle than its worth to freeze them

 

 

EDIT: Technically 3 and 4 way GPU setups are unfair too- to everyone without the exact hardware and wallet required, but at least that doesnt affect me

[bazx]

What about the G7950X2?

 

 

these units should be with the ati x2 in there own ranking system imo

 

 

 

if we have a ranking system then it should be seen to be fair?

 

or there really is no point in a ranking system?

 

2x gpu card cannot be compared to 1x GPU cards it is not possible

 

the score out-put from these units is just to big

 

you may aswell put the single cards in with sli

 

thanks baz

[r1ch]

Tricky one this, and it comes down to the decision as to whether the scores are divided by "# of gpus" or "# of sockets" used.

 

My opinion would be to change the system to "# of gpus", or differentiate based on whether SLI/Crossfire is used.

 

i.e

1 GPU

2 GPU

3 GPU

4 GPU

 

or...

 

No SLI/CF

SLI/CF

 

The second (SLI/CF) obviously doesn't scale well when you think about Triple SLI, or the dual 3870X2 Quadfire or 4x3850 Quadfire. This makes it tricky for the future.

 

The current system based on sockets does seem unfair, as the only difference between two HD3870's in CF and the HD3870X2 (internal CF) is the physical way they're connected - there's exactly the same GPU's.

 

# of GPU makes the most sense to me and allows easy exapnsion for the future of hwbot

[SF3D]

I can see the problem, but what is the difference between single core processor and dual core / quad core. Superpi use only one core, so everyone can bench it easily. Wprime is multithreaded benchmark, so you have better score with multiple cores in one processor. It still is one processor, but it can do more work in same time.

 

Same thing is with VGAs. Now you can have multicore VGA. Single card, but better results than before in multithreaded applications. Best results are obviously achieved in 3DM03 which uses almost only VGA power.

 

This is the way graphics gards are developing and we just have to deal with it. This is the easiest solution to have more rendering power. 9800GX2 will follow 3870X2 soon.

 

No need to discuss this further: Rich and Massman have already said all we have to say about this issue. *Don't get me wrong bazx *

[K404]

Nice point SF3D, I was about to add this myself:

 

What about multi-way systems in wPrime? Theres 8 and 16-way servers in there too along with the single-CPU chips. Could/should those be split off into a separate section?

 

Annnddd (lol sorry guys!) 3 and 4-way SLI/CF systems arent fair to 2-way users. Rankings suggest that ya either get a 3 or 4 system, or kiss an attempt at ranking well goodbye. I know its been discussed, but as more lines are being blurred and computers diversify more, is it ok to keep the categories so simple?

 

K

[Massman]

is it ok to keep the categories so simple?

 

Is it okay to make everything so complicated that no one really knows how to compare scores and systems?

[bazx]

Splitting up single/multi sockets cpu's is planned, k404.

 

I know using 3/4 way SLI/CF isn't 'fair' as supposed to 2x, but if we split up every possibility, we would have way too many rankings.

 

single socket cpu & multi socket cpu

single socket gpu & multi socket gpu

= 4 rankings

 

vs.

1 & 2 & 4 & 8 & 16 & 32 & ... cpu

1 & 2 & 3 & 4 gpu

= 10+ rankings

 

 

imo there cannot be any competition unless we all start in the correct category

to begin with

 

 

1xGPU, 2xGPU,3xGPU,ect is the fairest way as we would all no exactly who we were to compete against

 

Putting the 2x gpu in with the 1x gpu may well be easier to implement

From hwbots point of view

 

But it is making a mockery out of the rankings

 

 

For me to get 64k in 3D03 I need to work very hard with cascade cooling and vmods

 

For me to 70k with an x2 I only need to buy it put it in my system and submit to hwbot

[K404]

Is it okay to make everything so complicated that no one really knows how to compare scores and systems?

 

Is it ok to put the emphasis on who has the most endorsements or the deepest pockets, because thats easy to organise and code?

 

My first "Is it ok..." statement wasnt intended to be bitchy, and I dont want this thread to go down that route, no offense was meant!

[r1ch]

For me to get 64k in 3D03 I need to work very hard with cascade cooling and vmods

 

For me to 70k with an x2 I only need to buy it put it in my system and submit to hwbot

 

I agree with your point in general baz, but this argument doesn't help.

 

There's always going to be an evolution of GPU's. 8800GTX's kicked volt modded X19xx and 79xx cards when they were released and etc etc. The problem here is that the HD3870X2 (and in time, the 9800GX2) have two GPU's and use the Crossfire or SLI technology to generate the processing power they posess. (Seperate point, but if it was a dual core GPU i.e two cores on one package like the R700 is apparently planned to be, then this question will come up again).

 

The way this should be approached is we believe the system should be changed to "# of GPUs" not "# of sockets".

[Massman]

Is it ok to put the emphasis on who has the most endorsements or the deepest pockets, because thats easy to organise and code?

 

My first "Is it ok..." statement wasnt intended to be bitchy, and I dont want this thread to go down that route, no offense was meant!

 

Non taken, my post was to reverse your question and let you see the other side of the problem.

 

Deepest pockets? Afaik a 3870 X2 is not the most expensive card on the market. This is just a matter of new hardware popping up and making things a little bit 'unfair'. I can see where you guys see a problem, but this discussion will come up everytime new hardware is launched

 

//EDIT: This is a question related to the question: "How future-proof is HWBot?" ... and is in fact quite interesting.

[sacha35]

HI there all and i apologize for this long post to start with, but feel i need to put my point forward for the good and fun of this benching communities.

 

will this be the same then when the new Intel skull trail Motherboard comes out benching against single slot CPU motherboards as this will still be only one motherboard but have two X4 CPU's on it?

 

I think this will be totally unfair for the general bencher that has limited funds as all these CPU's/GPU's should be put in there own bracket and receive the points for that bracket within Hwbot scoring system.

 

If this will be the case then it will be only about who has the biggest wallet of which is the case but this will make it even more so if this ruling is going to stand and will be a shame because i can see a lot of benchers out there just giving up as there will be know point in them benching due to this and the pricing of these new items.

 

This is meant to be a fun thing that we all take part in and enjoy doing, but when it starts coming down to who has the most money then it will just be like an F1 team who has the most money will always win of which we have all seen the boring days of Ferrari and most did not bother watching TV because they new who would win the race.

 

Coming from a Motor racing background yes it has always been about money who has the most wins,but there was different categories for different types of vehicle, the way you guys are putting this it is like saying lets race a 250cc Gokart against an F1, both has the maximum spent on them one has a two stroke twin cylinder engine and the other has a v10 engine in it,why would anyone compete because we all know that the F1 would win even if the Kart racer was a world champion and the F1 driver was a novice.

 

But it is not done this way as you might know there are many different categories within motor sport and each is awarded the maximum points in there own categories.

 

I personally think it would be a very good idea to have different categories/Price range of hardware and then award the given points for this categories, as someone on a very limited budget who can only afford the cheapest of parts can still be competitive in his own categories and be awarded the top points for this given categories, if this is not done as said i can see a lot of benchers just giving up the game as when the new Intel skull trail hits the market we all know this will be the winner and them who have the money to spend will wipe the floor with more experienced guys out there who just can not afford to purchase this new bit of kit.

 

So in a nut shell please make different categories for different hardware, Single card is a single card with one GPU on it, single card with two GPU's is two GPU benching ECT.

 

I hope i have made my points clear enough for all and for the goodness of this community and the fun involved please look into making these changes soon.

 

Many Thanks for taking the time to read this and taking on board what i have said.

 

Regards

Sacha

[sacha35]

Don't you contradict yourself? First you say divide by price range, than divide by GPU count.

 

The HD3870X2 is the same price range, or cheaper, than a 8800GTX, but has twice the cores.

 

Know contardition at all, all i am asking is make two sets, one for Price/GPU and CPU then how many cors an item has, it will mean a lot of work on you guys but this way it will make it fair for all, as this way it should suite all out there.

[Massman]

Know contardition at all, all i am asking is make two sets, one for Price/GPU and CPU then how many cors an item has, it will mean a lot of work on you guys but this way it will make it fair for all, as this way it should suite all out there.

 

I'm afraid that much competitions will make the hwboints useless, which is not what we want.

 

We should look for a good, yet easy and understandible solution

[sacha35]

I'm afraid that much competitions will make the hwboints useless, which is not what we want.

We should look for a good, yet easy and understandible solution

 

I agree with you Massman, but it should still be easy to do, what i am worried about is that we will see a decline in benchers because of the amount that they will have to part with just to be able to bench or even try and be competitive in this field, if this is not done i can see a fast decline in benchers around the world as the simply wont be able to afford the expense this will impose on them.

 

Yes as said it will mean a load of work from you guys with Code ECT, but i think you could have something great at the end of the day in each section by doing this, as everyone can then see what is the best in each of any given field with different hardwear used.

 

My early point about Motor sport said it all, everyone can have just as much fun and enjoyment from different categories this way as they will be competing on an even playing filed and at there affordable expense.

 

3870 X2 is a single card, not SLI/CF, end of story.

 

 

Yes single card but with two GPU's on it, what you are saying is not right, this is like saying a single engine car of 2000cc competing with a twin engine 4000cc car, only one car but one has two engines and the same goes for this new 3870x2 card as it has two engines on one PCB so this should not be put in the same categories as a single cad with one GPU as it only has one engine to process the information it receives.

[Massman]

Regarding different categories: that's what the Hardware Points are for ~ providing competition for one piece of hardware.

 

The main problem seems to be the global rankings here.