bazx Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Whilst these cards are “single slot cards” They are 2 separate chip/cores on one card and as such are defeating the point of single card benching imo Should these cards that come out once a year have the "Own Ranking" As the true single card “one chip/core” cards are being removed from the rankings by these units i feel like i have been racing a car all season with one engine and at the last race of the year cars with two engines have been entered in my class and have won the day thanks baz 3D03: rankings below 1. 78022 marks - CapFTP (Tecnocomputer.it) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 931/1080mhz) 94.3 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ] 2. 76450 marks - pro (i4memory.com) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 918/1098mhz) 75.5 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ] 3. 75734 marks - boblemagnifique (OverClocking-Masters) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 904/1071mhz) 66 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ] 4. 74568 marks - jimmyz (XtremeSystems) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 900/1060mhz) 61.1 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ] 5. 71407 marks - gprhellas (H.O.T. (Hellas O/C Team)) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 880/1050mhz) 56.3 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ] 6. 70440 marks - geoffrey (OC-Team.Be) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 900/1050mhz) 54.3 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ] 7. 70346 marks - eleven (OutOfSpecs.Gr) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 855/955mhz) 52.8 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ] 8. 69594 marks - ncsa (i4memory.com) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 825/901mhz) 51.3 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ] 9. 69499 marks - No_Name (AwardFabrik) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 825/900mhz) 49.8 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ] 10. 69483 marks - T_M (i4memory.com) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 825/900mhz) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richba5tard Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 I disagree. While they are 2 chips on one card, it uses one socket. We prefer the # sockets used policy instead of # of cores. You do not have to have a special motherboard or even a big wallet. I do not deny that knowing the efficiency per core is almost as interesting as the efficiency per socket, but in the end it's the latter that matters for the consumer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazx Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 i disaree the consumer here at hwbot buy one card a year to bench and that ranking is hard fort the scores being put out by these cards is up there with sli/fire so would be better grouped with them by score/potential or we will have a single card top 20 with no single chip/cored cards in it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 the consumer here at hwbot buy one card a year to bench and that ranking is hard fort But the consumer can buy ONE card, the 3870 X2, and bench it as well, no? Physically, it's one card with 2 gpu's. That's what ATI provides for the ultimate gaming experiance. If it's indeed this powerful, kudos to ATI and good for those who are able to bench with the cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richba5tard Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Imho the only division that completely fair is division by price range. As it is practically not possible, division by # sockets is much better than # cores. It's much cheaper to buy a HD3870X2 than a single 8800U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazx Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 "But the consumer can buy ONE card, the 3870 X2, and bench it as well, no?" hehe so you would have a top 20 with just the card "3870 X2" we could call it the hwbot ATI 3870 X2 competition and remove the single card rankings altogether at this rate there will be no "true single card" rankings within 10 days just ati 3870 x2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richba5tard Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 It always been like this, bazx. The fastest card is at the top... no-one complained when the 8800U ruled the rankings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Bazx, that's what happens when new hardware is released. You could have made the exact same comment when the 8800GTX was launched: "HWBot Nvidia 8800 competition". New hardware pops up and we try to divide them in competitions as fair/straight-forwarded as possible. That card is ONE card, so it shouldn't compete with systems that have TWO cards, I believe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazx Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 Imho the only division that completely fair is division by price range. this would make no difference to the situation these cards would still be messing up the single card rankings no one single card can beat one of these units and as such should not be in the single card rankings they have 2x cores/chips, it is totally unfair to group these units with 1x core/chip units when they have more in common with sli/fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richba5tard Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 They have technically more in common with sli/cf configurations, I agree. But practically, they have all the same characteristics as single card configurations: same price range, no special motherboard. Whether they internally differ from other cards does not matter for the consumer. I follow your logic, but if you think like that you can only have fun within one hw category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazx Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 It always been like this, bazx. The fastest card is at the top... no-one complained when the 8800U ruled the rankings. you are both missing my point the examples you point out are ultra and gtx both these units are single core/chip so belong in the single card rankings 2x chipcards cannot be taken down by the single card /core/chip units so are un-beatable in this class Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazx Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 They have technically more in common with sli/cf configurations, I agree. But practically, they have all the same characteristics as single card configurations: same price range, no special motherboard. Whether they internally differ from other cards does not matter for the consumer. I follow your logic, but if you think like that you can only have fun within one hw category. i can only afford to have fun in one category and have been benching it here and at FM for years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazx Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 can cards be grouped by number of GPU instead of slot this would solve the ranking problem as i see it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 IIRC, FM has problems with dividing certain categories into single/sli, no? In understand exactly what you mean, but I'm afraid we'll stick to the single vs multiple card system we have now. Sorry if this does not fullfil your needs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richba5tard Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 What about the G7950X2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Im not massively happy with the X2 as a single card, but i can see both sides of the argument. Whenever a new top-end card comes out, yup its total dominance, but this card does feel like a cheat slightly (on ATIs part, and soon to be nVs as well) 3DM03 is already a total writeoff for all other cards, but heres hoping its more hassle than its worth to freeze them EDIT: Technically 3 and 4 way GPU setups are unfair too- to everyone without the exact hardware and wallet required, but at least that doesnt affect me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazx Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 What about the G7950X2? these units should be with the ati x2 in there own ranking system imo if we have a ranking system then it should be seen to be fair? or there really is no point in a ranking system? 2x gpu card cannot be compared to 1x GPU cards it is not possible the score out-put from these units is just to big you may aswell put the single cards in with sli thanks baz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1ch Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Tricky one this, and it comes down to the decision as to whether the scores are divided by "# of gpus" or "# of sockets" used. My opinion would be to change the system to "# of gpus", or differentiate based on whether SLI/Crossfire is used. i.e 1 GPU 2 GPU 3 GPU 4 GPU or... No SLI/CF SLI/CF The second (SLI/CF) obviously doesn't scale well when you think about Triple SLI, or the dual 3870X2 Quadfire or 4x3850 Quadfire. This makes it tricky for the future. The current system based on sockets does seem unfair, as the only difference between two HD3870's in CF and the HD3870X2 (internal CF) is the physical way they're connected - there's exactly the same GPU's. # of GPU makes the most sense to me and allows easy exapnsion for the future of hwbot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF3D Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 I can see the problem, but what is the difference between single core processor and dual core / quad core. Superpi use only one core, so everyone can bench it easily. Wprime is multithreaded benchmark, so you have better score with multiple cores in one processor. It still is one processor, but it can do more work in same time. Same thing is with VGAs. Now you can have multicore VGA. Single card, but better results than before in multithreaded applications. Best results are obviously achieved in 3DM03 which uses almost only VGA power. This is the way graphics gards are developing and we just have to deal with it. This is the easiest solution to have more rendering power. 9800GX2 will follow 3870X2 soon. No need to discuss this further: Rich and Massman have already said all we have to say about this issue. *Don't get me wrong bazx * Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Nice point SF3D, I was about to add this myself: What about multi-way systems in wPrime? Theres 8 and 16-way servers in there too along with the single-CPU chips. Could/should those be split off into a separate section? Annnddd (lol sorry guys!) 3 and 4-way SLI/CF systems arent fair to 2-way users. Rankings suggest that ya either get a 3 or 4 system, or kiss an attempt at ranking well goodbye. I know its been discussed, but as more lines are being blurred and computers diversify more, is it ok to keep the categories so simple? K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richba5tard Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Splitting up single/multi sockets cpu's is planned, k404. I know using 3/4 way SLI/CF isn't 'fair' as supposed to 2x, but if we split up every possibility, we would have way too many rankings. single socket cpu & multi socket cpu single socket gpu & multi socket gpu = 4 rankings vs. 1 & 2 & 4 & 8 & 16 & 32 & ... cpu 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 gpu = 10+ rankings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 is it ok to keep the categories so simple? Is it okay to make everything so complicated that no one really knows how to compare scores and systems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazx Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 Splitting up single/multi sockets cpu's is planned, k404. I know using 3/4 way SLI/CF isn't 'fair' as supposed to 2x, but if we split up every possibility, we would have way too many rankings. single socket cpu & multi socket cpu single socket gpu & multi socket gpu = 4 rankings vs. 1 & 2 & 4 & 8 & 16 & 32 & ... cpu 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 gpu = 10+ rankings imo there cannot be any competition unless we all start in the correct category to begin with 1xGPU, 2xGPU,3xGPU,ect is the fairest way as we would all no exactly who we were to compete against Putting the 2x gpu in with the 1x gpu may well be easier to implement From hwbots point of view But it is making a mockery out of the rankings For me to get 64k in 3D03 I need to work very hard with cascade cooling and vmods For me to 70k with an x2 I only need to buy it put it in my system and submit to hwbot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Is it okay to make everything so complicated that no one really knows how to compare scores and systems? Is it ok to put the emphasis on who has the most endorsements or the deepest pockets, because thats easy to organise and code? My first "Is it ok..." statement wasnt intended to be bitchy, and I dont want this thread to go down that route, no offense was meant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1ch Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 For me to get 64k in 3D03 I need to work very hard with cascade cooling and vmods For me to 70k with an x2 I only need to buy it put it in my system and submit to hwbot I agree with your point in general baz, but this argument doesn't help. There's always going to be an evolution of GPU's. 8800GTX's kicked volt modded X19xx and 79xx cards when they were released and etc etc. The problem here is that the HD3870X2 (and in time, the 9800GX2) have two GPU's and use the Crossfire or SLI technology to generate the processing power they posess. (Seperate point, but if it was a dual core GPU i.e two cores on one package like the R700 is apparently planned to be, then this question will come up again). The way this should be approached is we believe the system should be changed to "# of GPUs" not "# of sockets". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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