Combine nVidia NV41 and NV42 categories?

[K404]

There are a few nVidia 6800 categories that are split into NV41 and NV42 silicon rankings

 

In short, verification sucks. Depending on software choice, I can show one card as either NV41 or NV42. The difference is only in the MHz and there's no way to say if a user has OC'd the card to its full potential

 

Examples:

 

http://hwbot.org/submission/2379386_meiyo_3dmark03_geforce_6800_xt_ddr1_%28nv41%29_7535_marks

 

http://hwbot.org/submission/2269305_delicious_cake_3dmark03_geforce_6800_xt_ddr1_%28nv42%29_13467_marks

 

Please can NV 41 and NV42 categories be combined for the 6800GS and 6800XT models that are split in this way?

 

 

(personally.... I do not see the point of dividing rankings based on memory amount either, but Karl and me have talked about this before)

Edited November 4, 2013 by K404

[Strunkenbold]

Again a very good example what happens when _almost_ two identical devices share the same device id. Rivatuner says NV42, GPU-Z NV41. And no one can verify.

 

The 6800 XT varies greatly depending on manufacturer. It is produced on three cores (NV40/NV41/NV42), four memory configurations (128 MB DDR, 256 MB DDR, 128 MB GDDR3, 256 MB GDDR3, and 512 MB GDDR2), and has clock speeds ranging from 300-425 (core) and 600-1000 (memory). 6800 XT cards based on the NV40 core contain eight masked pixel pipelines and two masked vertex shaders, and those based on the NV42 core contain four masked pipelines and one masked shader (for some reason, the NV42 cards are almost never unlockable. It is speculated that the pipelines are being laser-cut).

 

Still, apart from what wikipedia says, do merge these ones.

[K404]

Thanks for adding some info Strunkenbold

 

What categories do you think would be fair/easy?

 

I was thinking (for PCI-E):

 

6800 XT DDR

6800 XT DDR2

6800 XT GDDR3

 

6800 GS

6800 GS 128-bit

 

 

6800 DDR

6800 GDDR3

 

?

[knopflerbruce]

Thanks for adding some info Strunkenbold

 

What categories do you think would be fair/easy?

 

I was thinking (for PCI-E):

 

6800 XT DDR

6800 XT DDR2

6800 XT GDDR3

 

6800 GS

6800 GS 128-bit

 

 

6800 DDR

6800 GDDR3

 

?

 

I haven't tested these cards much, but it could be that the amount of memory matters in a benchmark or two - 128MB isn't much... 06 and Unigine DX9?

 

We need to make different categories for different models (xt, gs and so on), memory bus width, memory IC generation and # of pipelines enabled by default. There will be alot of categories for these cards no matter what we do. You can add separate categories if the AMOUNT of memory makes a noticeable difference as well.

[K404]

I haven't tested these cards much, but it could be that the amount of memory matters in a benchmark or two - 128MB isn't much... 06 and Unigine DX9?

 

We need to make different categories for different models (xt, gs and so on), memory bus width, memory IC generation and # of pipelines enabled by default. There will be alot of categories for these cards no matter what we do. You can add separate categories if the AMOUNT of memory makes a noticeable difference as well.

 

How will HWB prove that a score was done by a card at default spec or that it had been unlocked? Memory bus width, I agree with completely.

 

IMO memory amount doesn't matter, if all other specs are the same. If one version is slower, people will learn to avoid it and pick a more suitable model.

 

 

 

 

The big picture:

 

FSE has a leaning towards 3GB of GDDR useage IIRC, there is no GTX580 3GB category, for example. Are HWB going to add....30? 40? GPU hardware categories because maybe two benches show a tangible difference?

[Turrican]

kenny, i said it already 100 times. i didn't add those old categories with all their different memory amounts.

since i do this stuff, we don't add cards with all their memory amounts anymore. the old ones were added in 2005/06 by someone else...

 

we aren't adding new cards with 3gb or 6gb, etc. either.

[K404]

I know you didn't We talked about it because you're one of the guys who can add or combine rankings

 

My comment about adding "30? 40? hardware categories" was a bit sarcastic.... I already knew the answer

[Strunkenbold]

I vote for keep the memory diversity with old cards! Does really somebody go shopping to find the best card? Im always happy that some of them simply fall in my hands...

Its like yesterday, and this is really coincidence, got a pc from a friend for repair and his graphic card is what? Nvidia 6800GS! Couldnt help myself taking of cooler to see the GPU. But things remain mystery. Basically, same description like this. They self talk in their article about 110nm which would be NV42. But GPU-Z says 6800GS is NV41 so 130nm.

But really I think NV42 should be right, atleast this would make sense. Die shrink could be the reason for those higher clocks. I smell a GPU-Z bug... Another article

 

But what we really should do anyway is merging these NV41 and NV42 category's.

[Antinomy]

I vote against combining categories with different memory sizes for old cards. The reason is easy - more memory was usually installed using slower chips making the cards not equal by definition.

 

But as for this situation - NV41 and NV42 could be combined for PCI-E parts.

[Turrican]

the categories with different memory sizes for old cards won't be merged for sure.

[TaPaKaH]

I vote against combining categories with different memory sizes for old cards. The reason is easy - more memory was usually installed using slower chips making the cards not equal by definition.

All cards are created unequal, by the same definition. If some manufacturer have deliberately decided to make their card slower (=worse), why can't we just accept the fact that the card is not too competitive against other cards of the same model rather than generating a specific category for it? Using same logic, you would have to separate Lightnings from ref cards and generate a new category for each crippled "wonder" that's out there on the OEM market (in Asia especially).

Another good thing in having less categories is that each category now becomes more popular resulting in more points even for the bottom places. Yes, this allows less cups to be scored, but if cups is all you want, there are plenty of obsure models (not obscure crippled submodifications of popular models) around for you to do so.

[ZFeSS]

I smell a GPU-Z bug...

NV42 definitely clocks better. I've tested some 6800XT and GS cards and can say that NV41 clocks 70-80MHz worse at same voltages. Bug really exists. At all of this cards GPU-Z shows NV41.

 

All cards are created unequal, by the same definition. If some manufacturer have deliberately decided to make their card slower (=worse), why can't we just accept the fact that the card is not too competitive against other cards of the same model rather than generating a specific category for it?

Using this logic if non-reference cards get additional memory and packed with DDR2 instead of DDR3 they also should be in the same category, cause "some manufacturer have deliberately decided to make their card slower (=worse)", and at the other side 4850 GDDR5 should be placed with GDDR3 ones, it will be just "lightning"

Cards with different memory sizes usually packed with different rated ICs. Reference Ti 4200 64MB got 4ns mem, and reference 128 - 5ns, for this reason they even got different default clocks. And there no difference between them in terms of speed at the same clocks in possible benchmarks - 64mb is enough for 03.

Edited November 7, 2013 by ZFeSS

[Strunkenbold]

While we are at this, one more proposal to combine two categorys:

 

http://hwbot.org/hardware/videocard/82852_integrated_graphics/

http://hwbot.org/hardware/videocard/82855_integrated_graphics/

 

Again, no way to see differences with GPU-Z.

Also this shouldn't be separated anyway, as we have here simply the same graphic part in just different chipsets.

 

Turrican, do you want a new ticket for this?