BenchZowner

( waiting for all the ES "owners" to vote for option #1 )... [ I'm so getting confirmed ] { let's see what the "I care for the community, I don't give a sh*t about points, and "life is unfair" people will say/vote }

Spread the news and get a better sample. Will the analogy change ? Yeah right

It was their decision to spend their money on E.S. They took the risk, and knew that they might get disallowed sooner or later. In that case, shall the retail buyers ask for a compensation for making their investments in retail CPU's worthless ? If an athlete decides to take drugs to enhance his performance, it's his decision, and if he gets caught or a new regulation adding his drug in the disallowed meds list arises, it's his fault and he doesn't deserve a compensation. After all buying E.S. hardware is illegal. And well... they can sell them just like they bought them...

What we can see from the ES poll is that the vast majority wants to have them removed or non-point awarded. It's clear and shinny like an uncut diamond. About being unfair when applied mid-season... there's always something people miss at the startup line, and there's also always a "crack" half-way for someone to introduce something that is clearly wrong and outside the rules ( mipmap maybe ? altered PC Mark maybe ? )... Fairness is a loose term, and it can be misused ( I was the first one to steal money from a bank, there was no law about it, so I'm legal, and no, you can't write a law about it, because we're in the middle of the game )... Keeping things as fair as possible is the key. Not removing the ES with the excuse that people can cheat and use them under the table and with another excuse ( not being able to track the ES VGAs ) is like not allowing the police to check up on suspects because they might get paid by the suspects to say that they're clean...

It does, partially though. The best retail won't be as far as the E.S.'s are. Plus, with some help of a golden hand aka tsan you can find a decent retail in 1-2 tries ( man tsan's the luckiest person I've ever met, just let him pick up the CPU/VGA for you... ). I'd rather go 6.2GHz 3D vs 6.4-6.5GHz 3D than 6.2GHz vs 6.7GHz. Corporate binning will always be here, but they don't get to test every chip that gets out of the production facility, and sometimes some of those are gems, real gems

Yeah why not, let it be, until things get more fucked up with the next CPU generation E.S.

Clever, yet not so unfair, since those with the E.S. have decent retails in hand already, or have the necessary contacts to get a good retail in a moment, most of them, and you know it, we know it. The question is very simple, sure it can piss off some people... like 10... and make 30.000 happy... Allow E.S. - Disallow E.S. The rest is just the pudding, the cake is already out there...

The good E8600s aren't E.S. however, and the E8600 ES's weren't untouchable by the retails like the 980X & 670's are. With the E8600's it was just a matter of luck or how many chips you can afford/RMA/whatever. If you can't find a good one, that's your problem. It's not like you can't buy one. With the 980X/670 E.S. however, you can't really touch them with a retail. You can't buy more than a very limited few of E.S. off ebay ( and of course, those could be pretested by another OCer and being sold because they sucked, what happens to the dozens andre, nick, and other ES people come by you think ? ). And plus, it's not about money, most of the times people get access or ahold of lots of ES's ( either pretest more than a couple at a manufacturer and keep the best, or even receive 4-5-6-7-... E.S. from a manufacturer permanently without paying ). p.s. Albrecht, if you want a good E8600, Q822A435... just msn me, unlike the Q3FE's/Q3QP's, you can buy a great second-hand E8600.

Life is unfair you said a few pages ago, didn't you ?

The E8600 situation you describe is normal and not considered an unfair situation. Everybody can buy an E8600 and have equal chances to get a decent chip. On the other hand the 980X e.s. and the 670 E.S. a tad less are things you can't get, it's a very different situation.

Luck is a factor indeed, but no luck can net you a retail B1 6.8GHz Pi... That's what it's about.

I didn't present myself as anybody's saviour. What I did say is that I'm the one ( of the very few as we can see ) that doesn't give a flying f*ck and say what I think without any hesitation. There are multiple PM's in my inbox from various people here and on other forums saying that they agree with me and thanking me for putting up a "fight" for them. That can be only one of the sides of this story, one of the other sides is... lots of people never posted here in this topic or in general, have PMed me, and agree with most ( if not all ) of my posts about this issue, so no, they haven't stopped listening and posting, they never posted to stop now. First of all, where did you see me saying that I said that I have a problem with the HWbot crew asking questions to any member ( be it a HOT member, a Pure member, or a TeamSuckers member... ) ? I did say that your behavior and reply to the members involved ( crio & sofos ) and the fact that you were predetermined about what happened, and ditched any attempt of crio & sofos who were more than willing to provide you with any kind of proof you desired. Did you ask the same question and behave the same to smoke and slamms ? To any other suspicious entry ? Personally I haven't shared any results ever, and wouldn't do it no matter what. Most of the times ( if not all ) whenever I bench together with other people, I give them the scores, and I don't post any for myself. I had several chances to "play within the rules", "slip and slide between the cracks" of the rules and share and publish similar scores taken with the same hardware, but I didn't. Other people might do it, others won't no matter what. I'm all against hardware sharing and any form of cheating, but this isn't about it. It's about how every single HWbot member is treated, because the way I and lots of other members of HWbot.org see it, it isn't exactly fair and handled the same way. I wouldn't mind you removing those scores ( along with every other MOA/GOOC score from any member & country ). In fact, I have been telling various people that I don't like and don't think it's right to do that, and kindly asked them that they don't, but I'm no god, and neither a control freak. "Do not use ES"... that's a one liner I think. Anyway, I know for sure that you're not considering removing the ES at all, and you're participating in this conversation just for the sake of being here and not having people saying "Massman or the X member isn't taking any part in this". So do yourself a favor and just say it clearly "We will not remove the ES" plain and simple.

First of all, I talk for myself, and only myself. I'm nobody's manager or lawyer. But since you insist and bring that up again ( yes, I'm aware of all your conversations with nearly every single HOT member ), let me tell you this. IT WASN'T the same VGA. I know they told you that they could show you their purchase receipts, but you said "blah blah, that's not proof". Kind of one-sided when you say that to the X & Y person while you suck it up for the A & B person, isn't it ? I don't know which MOA & GOOC 2009 scores you're talking about, but if you're talking about scores from the Greek local qualifiers then you're plainly wrong, because unlike the rest of the "lucky" countries, the Greeks had to use THEIR OWN hardware. And since you're expanding the conversation's subjects, why don't you also tell us how many months it took you guys to take down 1, yes, just 1 of the 5+ pretty darn obviously cheated CPU-z validations of mr Psycho aka Kurumi ? You know, I don't give a shit about points, team rankings, personal rankings, etc but I really can switch to "mofo mode" when it comes to cheating, one-sided judging, handicapping, and unbalanced play/rules.

Let's see some balls... http://hwbot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7966

While I'm not a HWbot decision-maker, I would like to see what most of the overclockers think and want. Do we want the E.S. ( especially the CPUs ) to be allowed for submissions and points on HWbot ? Not allowed at all ? Allowed but in a separate "pro" league ? This poll is for everyone, not just extreme overclockers, so please everybody cast your vote.

4 cores active, cat 9.12 or 10.3, 5870 @ 1300/1300 and bingo I tell you

Think he'll need a 5870 @ 1300-1300 to top the ranks

we will ignore the poll and still allow the ES to keep 4-5 people on the site & happy. Excuse my cockiness but this thing is ridiculous, we started a few months ago with "We'll wait and see what we'll do, we believe that the retail 980X's and the 670's will catch up with the ES" to "we can't remove ES's because blah blah blah".

Come on, that's going to be a double penetration George Awaiting "Can't do a poll because it's not right, and disallowing the E.S. isn't possible due to various reasons" post.

"We can't fix this 100%, so we're leaving it fucked up as is"... applies to: Hardware sharing Manufacturer owned hardware ( benching at asus, gigabyte, etc with THE COMPANY's hardware ) E.S. That's the bottom line. Waiting patiently for an OPB deja-vu.

Fake-proof video ? Not that hard. Video starts with the cpu ihs shown, pot mounting, cpuz validation and a bench run at similar clocks and settings all these with a an analog clock next to the monitor shown in the vid the whole time. 50 MHz higher ? Fine. 100MHz higher ? fine. 150+ MHz higher = not fine. Now, I'll cut you some slack and stop this hypocritical conversation because the truth is that you guys are afraid of pissing off the top 10 OCers by removing the E.S. scores, and aren't considering a change in the ToC anyway. If you think that it's the right choice, good for you, hope it won't be the opposite for the mass.

Man enable 2 more cores

Again, how many ppl can do that ? If they're running it 20-30MHz over the retail best sample, who cares. That someone can be asked to make a video with proper proof.

It's not that hard... and not so gut moderating... There are several measures that can prevent that, or at least keep things tight, for example ORB URL's required along with CPU-z validated URL for each score. Not just screensillyshots.

It can be done, but: 1. You can detect an E.S. from a thousand miles away. You can't believe somebody with a 6.6GHz Pi1m retail 980X can you ? All the retails STRUGGLE with pi1m. 2.Not everybody knows how to do that.