The Poll: Allow E.S. or disallow ?

[Buckeye]

Yes, you are talking generally because you're talking about introducing a rule that affects the whole of HWBot, not just those chips. Sure, ES samples might be better than retail for those two chips...ok. Why eliminate ES as a whole because of that?

 

Why, because ES chip cannot be sold according to Intel. Many website will not allow the sale of ES chips, they are sold on the black market or underground for that reason. Another reason to not allow the use of ES chips right there.

 

Are all ES chips great chips, no of course not. I have had my share of ES chips that were pretty poor.

 

But back in the day when I was racing QX9650, QX9770 chips the top 10 spots were full of ES chips and retails could hardly touch them. Chips we paid $1,000 for. Now as manufacture process started becoming better a few more retails took spots away from those ES chips.

 

By allowing the use of ES CPU's HWBOT supports the unground selling of ES chips and putting large amounts of money into peoples pocket for item they often get for free and in the process breaking Intell rules. Doesn't matter if they are good chips or not.

 

Now AMD does not mark there chips, but a entry that is far superior in over clock vs what most retail can do is a dead giveaway. LHE binned CPU's come to mind a those chips made the rounds to other benchers.

 

Back to manufactured supported guys... it feels great when we spend enough money to get a Quad SLI setup of top cards, vmod them and throw them on a equally top end motherboard and CPU/RAM, costing a ton of cash, buy the LN2 to run it, only to have a manufactured guy have access to all the hardware they want to bin, sit down and blow every score away they want.

 

Sure Intel can stop marking CPU's as ES and that is a problem, but AMD does not do that now anyway.

 

Us overclockers need to stand for what we think is right and wrong and I would like to see an over sight board, not related to HWBOT because imo and only that, HWBOT has a different agenda than what most of us overclockers would like to see.

 

We need to send a clear message to manufactures to stop messing around in our sport for there marketing goals. And by saying no more ES allowed at HWBOT is a start, then we tackle the next battle after that.

 

But if we stand as a whole and try to level this playing field so that all can enjoy and have fun in, thats a very good place to start imo.

[knopflerbruce]

Just a quick reminder... some of you assume all ebay engineering samples are rejects from other guys - what about proving that? Unless that's true, there is no reason to say stuff like "you can't het lucky with an ES nymore". You can't know until you've actually bought and binned them yourself;)

[euklidis]

Perhaps the top three may not win at live events because they need more time to do what they do best - tweak the crap out of their OS / hardware. For some it takes days to get the top overclock, which is not possible at live events. Not to mention there's no binning at live events - you compete with what you get, which might be less than stellar.

 

But you know all of this, or at least you should.

 

It's a slippery slope you're sliding down, that's all I'm saying.

 

Α week ago shamino and kingpin got a retail 980X. They did 6.100 on 3D. They knew the mobo, they knew the cpu (not the first 980X they tried) but the couldn't hit 6.600 in 3D, why is that? 2 top class overclockers (i believe shamino is an OC god) were 500Mhz lower then ES cpus. In live events people go with already OS anf they know the mods they will do. MSI gave contestants the vga before to weeks for the MSi MOA so they will have enough time to mod them and test them before the event. So those things you say are wrong. They do not participate cause they do not use their own cpus and vgas. i heard that some participate at GOOC, won the 1500 price (they played with their own HW) and said that they will not go to finals, passing their ticket to the finals to the next one. Maybe they do not wanna prove that they are sponsored or working for companies? maybe;)

[BenchZowner]

In a dream world it would make sense, but you know knop, when Andre, Nick and 2-3 more people bin 50 at least E.S. and on ebay there are like 30 E.S. available... tell us, what's the real-life scenario.

I assume you don't believe that Andre eats all those rejects for dinner...

 

Let's say that I want to bin Q3FE's.

And let's also assume that none of the Q3FE's sold on ebay are pretested by another bencher.

How many Q3FE's can I find on ebay or any other place on the net that you can buy from with some sense of security ?

I'm willing to spend 50k$ on Q3FE's, can you find them for me ?

[steponz]

Wheres the info on which are ES's? Should be a relatively easy query.

[knopflerbruce]

In a dream world it would make sense, but you know knop, when Andre, Nick and 2-3 more people bin 50 at least E.S. and on ebay there are like 30 E.S. available... tell us, what's the real-life scenario.

I assume you don't believe that Andre eats all those rejects for dinner...

 

Let's say that I want to bin Q3FE's.

And let's also assume that none of the Q3FE's sold on ebay are pretested by another bencher.

How many Q3FE's can I find on ebay or any other place on the net that you can buy from with some sense of security ?

I'm willing to spend 50k$ on Q3FE's, can you find them for me ?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Intel-i7-980X-Gulftown-EE-ES-Air-4-5GHz-FREE-SHIPPING-/130397973899?cmd=ViewItem&pt=CPUs&hash=item1e5c532d8b this guy has 4 of them. Pretty good feedback as well. If you want warranty, buy a retail chip. There's also a cheap Q3FE there. Feedback = "some sense of security".

 

No warranty on engineering samples ofc, but that's how the game works...

 

I can't tell how many samples Intel even made... and neither can you. I bet Andre didn't put everything on ebay, he could've sold them through forums or personal contacts or whatever.

[Splave]

@knopf, thats the guy I bought mine from. He bins for the top dogs (nickshi etc) and post the rejects on ebay (we had 10-20 emails back and forth about it). Mine wouldnt even run 06 or vantage CPU Test @ 5.5ghz... 6.3ghz no HT for spi1m 6.1ghz for spi 32m. I dont recommend buying those. Sold mine at a huge loss For a 6.3+ golden chip q3fe he asked for $1300

 

Atleast if manufacturers are binning, they are comming out of the same pool of where you and I buy them so im fine with that

 

80% of the votes dont want ES to count for points in some shape or form, so what will be done? You cant tell me nothing will be done can you?

Edited June 7, 2010 by Splave

[BenchZowner]

Maybe they'll change their mind after people start leaving.

Maybe not.

[knopflerbruce]

*sigh*

 

Of course we won't do anything, we're just here to make sure the big guys rock the bot. In fact they send us free hardware if we ignore the posts of the average Joe users here:) It's a good thing you completely ignore any post we write where we say that changes are being planned, as all such posts are obvious written while we're high on some of the stuff the luvly Taiwanese guys included in the superduperfantastic packages they ship us weekly. WE CAN'T GET ENOUGH!!!11!! MOAR MOAR!! MOAR POWR MOAR MONEYZ!!!!11!!

[steponz]

This is a subject where something has to happen, the community is very irritated with the lack of changing rules and/or the handling of this subject.

 

WHy not just go through all of the cpuz screenshots and mark as ES. FutureMarks will definitely be hard.. You can rely on the owner for this.. Unrealistic insane scores that are on only 1 retail.. will be the method to root out the cheaters...

 

This needs to be handled now.. not later... its already gone too far.

 

The votes lead to removing the points... So what is the bot going to do?

[BenchZowner]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Intel-i7-980X-Gulftown-EE-ES-Air-4-5GHz-FREE-SHIPPING-/130397973899?cmd=ViewItem&pt=CPUs&hash=item1e5c532d8b this guy has 4 of them. Pretty good feedback as well. If you want warranty, buy a retail chip. There's also a cheap Q3FE there. Feedback = "some sense of security".

 

No warranty on engineering samples ofc, but that's how the game works...

 

I can't tell how many samples Intel even made... and neither can you. I bet Andre didn't put everything on ebay, he could've sold them through forums or personal contacts or whatever.

 

That's 4 Q3QP's...

Even though I asked for Q3FE's, where are the rest 46 ?

 

p.s. Sure, Andre sold the crappy 50+ E.S. to his personal contacts and through forums ( well, where are those forums with the E.S. for sale threads ? ), they were all happy to buy crappy chips with no warranty

 

So, we have 4-5 guys testing 100's of chips each and all the rejects magically disappear without hitting ebay/craigslist/ocbay/etc.

[Bustah]

Dont know why but I cant quote posts on this forum....anyway @Splave, yeah I bought one from that guy too, similar story to yours, mine operates on 5 cores. [that could be a seperate reason] but yeah it was not a good clocking chip at all. so from the perspective and having first hand experience of 'buying' an es chip that was most likely a reject from the binning process, these golden binned es are not available to Joe blogs...I know someone else who bought two with a similar story to splaves and mine, no coincidence. I'm not bitter, we live and learn never again will I pay for an es cpu. my mistake based on my desire to get great results, nothing wrong with that and for those guys who say 'im happy being nowhere in the rankings' great...in my life anything I did I want to compete to win and be among the best, nothing wrong with that either, but I think the whole point of this thread is...a very few ppl have a round football to play with while others have to manage with a square one....and be happy about that? lol.

 

I respect anyone with skills to achieve great scores, but if there is an identified unfair advantage then im not happy I have to say.

 

Massman I respect you, you are a good guy but some of the stuff you have said in this thread regarding voting statistics etc make no sense, why have a vote if the majority lose? I dont get that at all. whats the point in polls if the majority are overuled?

[dejo1]

One thing to note: if they seperate classes to pro/amatuer/newb, the points will go down accordingly as there will be less submissions to each hardware class. I do feel that the ES stuff should be in a class of its own and not take points away from the real class as far as cups or points, but be allowed as a submission in its own class.

 

Sure there is no fair way to police the rules outright. But those that get free hardware do have a definite advantage over the average joe. I never have the high end equipment, as I cant afford it. Someone that gets free mobo's and chips and maybe video cards has extra money to spend elsewhere on hardware, that is a huge advantage. But I am one of those average joes. Do I expect to compete with the likes of the top 50: no. I do it as a passtime pleasure. Do I care that I am currently 300 in the world: no. I compete the best I can and let the rest fall where they may. One thing I do know is that if I somehow got nice hardware and did make it up the rankings, It would sure make me feel better to know that I did it against the best there is, rather than be 20th in the newb rankings.

[knopflerbruce]

Let's wait and see if Andre will post the advertized 6.7GHz retail benches. That should prove that you can get a competitive retail if you just bin enough. Then you can choose: bin A0 samples without warranty... you need less, but if you break one -> 1000 bucks in the toilet. Or you can bin B1 retails, and sell them on ebay if they're not good enough. maybe you need to try alot before you find a really good one, but retail binning IS a part of the game, and has always been.

[knopflerbruce]

That's 4 Q3QP's...

Even though I asked for Q3FE's, where are the rest 46 ?

 

p.s. Sure, Andre sold the crappy 50+ E.S. to his personal contacts and through forums ( well, where are those forums with the E.S. for sale threads ? ), they were all happy to buy crappy chips with no warranty

 

So, we have 4-5 guys testing 100's of chips each and all the rejects magically disappear without hitting ebay/craigslist/ocbay/etc.

 

Again, how can you tell how many chips each bencher try? You just assume alot... no hard facts. Maybe some end up on ebay, but that happens to shitty retails as well.

[steponz]

To Dejo, If the points goes down for everybody, how does that change anything? If your a noob starting out your in the noob class...

 

I would say your a definite amateur with no sponsers... Your like me, you do it for fun. Not saying that your not very good at clocking or anything like that.

 

Pros should be left to the sponsered people. If we adjust the rankings based upon being pro/nonpro.. I think it should make the ranking much nicer..

 

Imagine the front page with the pros ranking

amateur ranking..

 

WOuldn't be nice to be in the top 10 for the amateur ranking? Where we really don't care about ES or ES is strictly prohibited? This would then give the sponsers free rain on pro.. and leave the amateur alone..

[BenchZowner]

@knop... so if Andre comes up with 1 retaio at 6.7G all is good right?

where did all your "e.s. can be modified to show up as retail ?"

[uncle fester]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Intel-i7-980X-Gulftown-EE-ES-Air-4-5GHz-FREE-SHIPPING-/130397973899?cmd=ViewItem&pt=CPUs&hash=item1e5c532d8b this guy has 4 of them. Pretty good feedback as well. If you want warranty, buy a retail chip. There's also a cheap Q3FE there. Feedback = "some sense of security".

 

No warranty on engineering samples ofc, but that's how the game works...

 

I can't tell how many samples Intel even made... and neither can you. I bet Andre didn't put everything on ebay, he could've sold them through forums or personal contacts or whatever.

 

Umm i have to say LOL this guy i have brought several AO samples from him and everyone was a DUD they are all pre binned when i first contacted him he was telling me he is good friends with Andre and Nickshih and is a TOP overclocker- message him yourself he will tell you same thing

________

(Automobile)

Edited February 28, 2011 by uncle fester

[dread77]

Dont know why but I cant quote posts on this forum....anyway @Splave, yeah I bought one from that guy too, similar story to yours, mine operates on 5 cores. [that could be a seperate reason] but yeah it was not a good clocking chip at all. so from the perspective and having first hand experience of 'buying' an es chip that was most likely a reject from the binning process, these golden binned es are not available to Joe blogs...I know someone else who bought two with a similar story to splaves and mine, no coincidence. I'm not bitter, we live and learn never again will I pay for an es cpu. my mistake based on my desire to get great results, nothing wrong with that and for those guys who say 'im happy being nowhere in the rankings' great...in my life anything I did I want to compete to win and be among the best, nothing wrong with that either, but I think the whole point of this thread is...a very few ppl have a round football to play with while others have to manage with a square one....and be happy about that? lol.

 

I respect anyone with skills to achieve great scores, but if there is an identified unfair advantage then im not happy I have to say.

 

Massman I respect you, you are a good guy but some of the stuff you have said in this thread regarding voting statistics etc make no sense, why have a vote if the majority lose? I dont get that at all. whats the point in polls if the majority are overuled?

 

One of the most "make sense" posts in this thread. So true Bustah!!!

 

Anyway, I guess Hwbot guys are already working on a fair solution mentioned in another thread so let's just cool down and wait.

[knopflerbruce]

@knop... so if Andre comes up with 1 retaio at 6.7G all is good right?

where did all your "e.s. can be modified to show up as retail ?"

 

OK, so if he posts a 6.7GHz score you'll accuse him of using an ES - even if there is no proof that he did? If he posts and CPUZ recognizes it as a retail, it is a retail until someone can prove it's not. High CPU speed is not proof.

[BenchZowner]

and you just contradicted massman's main excuse on banning/point-lessing the ES a few pages ago.

and yes, I don't blindly trust people, especially the ones who've done something that gives you a reason not to trust them like that.

OPB deja-vu anybody ?

let's not forget that there's a possible motive as well.

[knopflerbruce]

I don't have any reason to trust your scores either, but THANK GOD it comes down to hard evidence in the end. OPB was banned twice, Andre... never? If he did something that upset you, I'm really sorry, but in my eyes he has a flawless record.

 

I take away your excuse to ban engineering samples, too, if there are 6.7GHz capable retails out there;) You can say whatever you want about such a score (if it ever happens), but you still base it on feelings and not facts. Fact: CPUZ would recognize a retail as a retail.

 

I think everyone has a motive for everything, even posting in this thread.

[Don_Dan]

let's not forget that there's a possible motive as well.

 

All the other guys posting in this thread don't have a "possible motive"? Eh?!

 

 

knopflerbruce was faster.... -.-

[BenchZowner]

Fact: CPUZ would recognize a retail as a retail.

 

no, fact is cpu-z can be easily cheated.

And I wouldn't be surprised at all if we discover that lots of people have been doing it.

[knopflerbruce]

no, fact is cpu-z can be easily cheated.

And I wouldn't be surprised at all if we discover that lots of people have been doing it.

 

That could just as well include you as anyone else