der8auer

Hey there! Q3/Q4 we will see new Intel CPUs and these Intel CPUs are also going to open up a new era. From the information that is publicly available Alder Lake (i9 12900K), will be made of 2 different types of cores: up to 8 Golden Cove and up to 8 Gracemont cores. Previous leaks described this as P-Cores and E-Cores. (8P + 8E) The Golden Cove cores will be the "fast" cores and Gracemont cores will be "slow". Now we're thinking about how to list these CPUs at HWBot. The first thought might be obvious to list the CPU as 16C CPU, as we have 16C in total. However from what we know about future AMD CPUs, we also know that AMD will eventually move the the big/little concept. I personally also expect that this kind of CPU design will be the future for desktop CPUs and we might see it for a long time. So it's probably good to think about this precisely before throwing it into the database or apply sudden changes. Things to consider: Only the P-Cores will feature Hyperthreading. So even though we have a 16C CPU with HT it will have 24T in total Future CPU designs from both Intel and AMD might have strange big/little configurations such as 8 big cores and 20 little cores - some with HT and some without HT Simply throwing the 12900K into the 8C ranking would be unfair for the rest of the 8C CPUs because of the additional E-Cores Simply throwing the 12900K into the 16C ranking could result in the fact that the CPU won't be competitive in some rankings and for the future it would also mean that if we have an obscure big/little configuration we might see desktop CPUs with 28C that performs worse that a 16C from 3 years ago. Possible solutions we could think of so far: Change the entire HWBot and judge CPUs by the amount of Threads instead of the amount of Cores. While this might make sense from a technical perspective especially for future CPUs it would result in a massive change in our database. For example a 6700K (4C) would suddenly compete with a 9700K (8C). It would change a lot regarding rankings and points and it would be a lot of work because we'd have to change benchmarks and CPU listings We simply list the 12900K as a 16C CPU. Might sound like an easy option for now but I see that this would make it very difficult for the future years especially thinking about that AMD will eventually also use different performing cores on one single chip We simply list the 12900K as a 8C CPU. In this method we would just go by the amount of "fast" cores and the small cores would act as a booster to the CPU. The issue I see here is that it won't reflect the performance of an old fashioned 8C CPU. Could be pretty unfair We list the 12900K twice. This solution would be a mix of #2 and #3. We list the 12900K as: - i9 12900K (8P + 8E) [this would be in the 16C ranking] - i9 12900K (8P + 0E) [this would be in the 8C ranking, the user would have to manually disable the E-Cores in BIOS to participate] At this point we would prefer option number 4. because it offers both ways to judge the CPU performance and we don't have to do fundamental changes to HWBot itself. If you have other brilliant ideas we are open for suggestions. Thanks!

always open to stuff like that I personally like this idea

Good intensions. That's just complete bs. Several posts above you I said So either you didn't even read the entire thread or you just wanted to post your accusations and conspiracy nonsense here anyway. And now you're playing the victim that I'm having a go at you Yea that all makes sense man. Good work Again: "we can see how this goes and what you guys want"

You come up with conspiracy theories and then expect respect? You did nothing to earn my respect here. We had a very good discussion last night on discord and all of that was far more mature than what you just dumped in here

It's absolutely pathetic to read something like this from you. Why would I care about what ASUS does? Use your brain next time before posting. That said it also seems like you didnt even read what I posted above that I will see how this evolves right here. Also funny that all I did so far and even for launch of 11900K was in cooperation with Gigabyte and nothing with asus.

Okay so we had some interesting discussions especially on discord and we can see how this goes and what you guys want. Will give it some more time

Also to make it more clear: New submissions with old hardware: Old rules! You can still do single cores New submissions with latest gen (still have to decide if we already start with 11th gen): New rule: All Cores + HT This way pretty much nobody is affected. No old submission, no global ranking. No need to get mad

The good thing is that we don't need a poll to decide this. I already talked to Albrecht last week to tell him we will not allow CPU-Z submissions anymore with disabled cores. We are currently thinking of when exactly we are going to enforce this rule. If already starting from this Gen or next one. You can give opinion on this if you want. But for the future Only full cores + HT will be accepted. Everything else is just nonsense on a technical level.

Allen, welcome to the test server :D

The Patreon page is now live: https://www.patreon.com/hwbot If you have questions please don't hesitate to ask. Thanks for your support!

Just in case it was not clear: It is not my intention to leak all the tweaks. It's just a rule to make moderation easier for the crew. If you want to publish your tweaks that's still up to you as usual. HWBOT Staff will never leak your information without permission.

Hey there I hope everyone is doing good so far and you had a decent start into 2021. As you've probably seen there is some movement right now with our coder understanding more and more how things work on the bot. Albrecht is in good contact with him and I'm sure we're getting there. Right now our priority is still to fix stuff which is not working and work on the most important updates. There are few things I want to address quickly: Benchmark Updates: Albrecht created a power point for us to see what kind of changes the community wants to see regarding benchmarks. Personally I'm totally open and we can just follow whatever the community wants to see. You guys eventually have to play on the field so you can also give feedback on it. Finances: Financially we currently have costs of about 4000€ per month which we have to cover somehow. I'm not trying to earn any money of this project and just want to keep it alive and improve things if possible. About 900-1000 € per month is the hosting cost right now to pay domains and keep the servers running. The rest is to pay the coder and the taxes/health insures and all this stuff we have to pay for him. I'm trying to be as transparent as possible. Besides that there are no additional costs we have to cover at this point. There are multiple ways we can cover the ~4000€. At a certain point we will try to form partnerships again with e.g. G.Skill, ASUS, Intel or whoever wants to join. Right now as long as the site is not 100% fixed we will just try to get some parts back by hosting competitions but also due to corona it's very difficult to see how things evolve with Computex and so on. As I mentioned in my initial Post from earlier 2020 I'm going to set up a Patreon page for HWBot within this week and hope that some can help us keeping this project alive. Thinking about how much we all spend on hardware and LN2 per month I hope we can find some guys to donate monthly in a range of like 10-25€. I hope we can cover some good part of our cost this way and stay independent. Nothing of this will be mandatory and you will not get benefits for donating. Well you can have fun on here which is a cool thing I guess Annual Ranking - Overclocker League 2021/2022/2023...: Albrecht told me there is a good interesting in keeping an annual ranking which is also fine to me. Eike and me will change the way this ranking works to make it more interactive, easier to understand for newcomers. More details on this once we have tested our idea. Tweaking/Cheating: This is probably the only part where we're taking a decision some of you might hate but this is also a major part for constant trouble in our community. As long as I've been part of OC this always lead to drama, confusion and anger. The general issue is that we have to decide which part is considered a cheat and which part is considered a tweak. Objectively speaking both things are pretty much the same. In an ideal world all overclockers would tweak their hardware and press start on benchmarks instead of finding every loophole to somehow receive a higher score even though the hardware is still performing on the same level. We all know this is never going to happen because overclockers are overclockers. If there is a grey zone or a loophole it will always be used (I did the same in the past) Right now we have such complex rules and have to use tools such as benchmate because we all made our own lifes harder and harder every single year. Instead of adding a new rule every few weeks to limit the damage we will take a different approach: Only tweaks which are known to moderators will be allowed. If there is a new tweak which has not been discussed with moderators and it is used it will automatically be considered cheating followed by a temporary or permanent ban. Everything which measurably changes the performance will be considered a tweak. It doesn't matter if it's 0.5% or 20%. What you have to keep in mind is that we want to make this hobby more appealing to new people and if you need to know 300 tweaks for each benchmark in order to be competitive it won't improve things! I will keep you updated on the Patreon page and ofc whenever the new rule will be activated. Thanks! Roman

Okay will do

Yea because we didn't have server access

If I personally had the skill to work on this it would be different already but I simply don't. We hired a coder who has been trying the last weeks and months to work himself into what we have here. It's not easy but we're getting there. I can absolutely understand everyones frustration but I can promise you that I'm trying everything to make sure HWBOT 2021 will be much better than the previous years.

!!

No, I bought it to increase my personal points by +10.000 without having to bench

We talked about a Patreon for HWBOT but didn't come to a final conclusion yet. If more people are open to this it would definitely be an option.

Hey there First of all I hope everybody out there is healty and safe during this difficult time we have all over the world! I read some strange rumours in some forums out there and received messages about the future of HWBOT. I'm wondering where some of this stuff comes from so I want to clarify things. I don't have to tell you that HWBOT is the niche inside the niche and therefore possible income and cooperations are difficult. In times where YouTube is such an easy marketing tool for companies and the reach is much higher than any website banners, websites such as HWBOT have a difficult time. The hosting costs of HWBOT with about 800-1000 EUR per month are exceeding the income from few competitions by far. After several years and I don't know how many thousand hours of work, Frederik had to make a cut to protect his own IT company. Offers were made to different companies such as ASUS or G.Skill but when I saw that I was worried about this plattform. This plattform turned me into who I am today and allowed me to do things I would've never imagined 10 or 15 years ago. So many awesome experiences of my life were linked to HWBOT. Starting from the first moments of extreme overclocking and the thrill of breaking records to events in Taiwan such as MOA or AOOC in Moscow. Once I heard about that this plattform might go in hands of the hardware industry I was worried about how it would turn out. Imagine how this website would look like if a mainboard vendor would own it? That's why I had a discussion with Eike (my business partner at Thermal Grizzly) to aquire HWBOT. We both are totally aware that we might never see the money back we "invested" in HWBOT which is absolutely fine and not our goal. Eike and me are luckily in a position where we can afford to keep HWBOT the way it is (yea yea and fix some bugs) without worrying about the money. We will try to do some cooperations such as the well known G.Skill competition to cover some of the hosting costs but that's it. HWBOT will be a completely independent company (HWBOT GmbH) and in no way linked to Thermal Grizzly. Honestly if we want exposure I can just book another video at Linus Tech Tips on YouTube and reach 1 Mio views in one week. As much as I love this website for the geeky place it is but marketing wise we have different strategies. The current state is that we applied for the company registration papers in Germany to start the HWBOT GmbH. However, due to Corona I have no idea when we can finish the company papers and when HWBOT will be fully transfered to us. Currently we have a kind of "hybrid mode" where we cover all running costs to keep HWBOT alive but Frederik still has full access. Only once we have the HWBOT GmbH (Ltd) registered and all data is transfered we will fully take over. You should not notice a difference when this happens. Things we will do: Keep the page almost (for changes see down below) the way it is Try to pay the core stuff or at least give compensation for hardware/LN2 (details will be discussed) Cooperation with Benchmate. It looks like a great software to us and makes it easy to validate scores. If it improves things we don't see why we should not cooperate with mat. I already spent few hours with him on the phone to discuss how we can make it as smooth as possible. We have the same opinion and goals and will try to find the best solution for the community HWBOT will stay free to use We have a coder who also did some stuff for Thermal Grizzly previously and he will spend about 1-2 working days per week on improving HWBOT. We plan to fix bugs which occur and improve some functions (admin panel for moderation for example) There are few things I want to change such as going back to reward all submissions with points so newcomers have more motivation. We might also change to a scheduled recalculation every 6-12h instead of instant recalculations to further reduce server load and costs. Otherwise we don't plan to have major changes. We just want to keep this website alive because it can really be an awesome place. If you have any concerns, ideas or whatever don't hesitat to ask or post. But I will ask you to act like adults. I'm not sure how Massman could deal with the insults of some over the years.... Thanks and stay safe! Roman

I have a 2990X (AMD Sample) which was then sold as 2990WX later. 600 € and bank transfer only if you are interested

In the end every software can be fooled. I'm pretty sure mat is the only guy in here who can do it So personally I wouldn't worry too much about it.

My username to Massman

awesome man

cmon you disabled 17 cores and HT and only 36 MHz more? that's pretty disappointing

Great find man. Both benches have to be removed/disabled points. There is no other way in my eyes.