Massman

We are saying that the had a a joint bench session and the person who uploaded the scores were not the owners of the videocards, which is in violation with the rules posted in August '07

Fixed George

I do my own translations, to be honnest

This is what you (wanted to) bring to the session: 2 x 8800GTX 1 x E6850 1 x G-Pot rev1.02 1 x DDR Maximizer 4 x 1GB ram 1 x Blitz formula A certain number of delta fans //EDIT: Yes, I read the forums when I tried to figure things out .

So what's the point of this thread according to you? I know that in both sessions (Hipro was helping with the ln² => JOINT session) both E. and G. used Hipro's videocards, which makes it illegal to post the result to their account. I agree, this might be the best solution in the end . Finding a perfect solution is sloe to impossible, I reckon . Awaiting your post

First of all, we rely on the honesty of the people who use HWBot, of course. But that is not enough, so ... good question and we're trying to find an answer to that question.

That's one of HWBot's flaws which are worked on. I expect a full set of rules to be posted on the crew forums any day now. As long as those rules are not online, the ownership rules stated in you post are the ones you should follow. Explain the unfair part, please? . These rules have been online since August '07 and have been applied many, many, many times before. In this case, we tried to contact HOT before blocking, but it got out of hand. The different opinions in this thread are supposed to help us in redesigning the rules regarding hardware sharing and are not applied at this moment. Of course you can buy a used CPU and upload the scores even if someone else did it before you (Note: we know that you can state that you bought the cpu while you're just lending it, but remember that this is still all about having fun. We will try to fit this 'problem' into the new rules) For 2D benchmarks, you have to be the owner of the cpu. For 3D benchmarks, you have to be the owner of the gpu. All other hardware is open for sharing (Note: may change when we present the new rules, not sure about that. Untill the new guidelines regarding hardware sharing are released, these are the correct ones). Normally, we always contact the member when we find a strange score, shared hardware, similar results ... Mostly, just one mail is enough to clear things up as most members just forgot something. When we have no idea of what is going on (not even when discussed in the crew section), we decide to block the score, hoping for a clear answer from the member. In case of too little 'proof' (this is discussed with all result moderators, of course), we keep the score blocked. We can always make mistakes (yes, we can ) and if that's the case, we can always unblock the result. I have read the greek forums, recieved a few PM's and checked a few other things on HWBot and it seems to me that I have enough 'proof' of some kind of hardware sharing. THOUGH, and please read this good, I have also read what HOT is all about when it comes to team benching and I can only congratulate HOT. Although the rules are not followed, the idea and spirit of that session (I've seen the pictures as well) is one we all should follow . !! Please know that this is a problem because of problems with the rules, not because of problems with HOT as a team !!

Okay, fair solution Another situation for you Knopflerbruce: Let's say, OCTB is recruiting new members and you all know that HWBot is very keen on new members in the benchmark community. We like to see the experienced benchers learn the new members how benching exactly works. By introducing hardware points next to the global points, we tried to give the unexperienced users a chance to collect a few points for the team (as none of the new benchers will have 100+ points directly). MassTWO, my newest OCTB'er, only has a E2180 to play with, but luckily he has a good one AND he manages to break into the top5 of every bench with his cpu. When he sees his account, he sees he has gained 15 points, making him 3000th, but of course he's only interested in the team's ranking. Because I have bigger scores, he does not add points to the team's ranking and decides to quit as it doesn't even matter if he's on the team or not. With the new GPU's, it's easy to get about 10 points on each bench just on aircooling. But if the points are not added to the team's total, why would anyone like to keep benching (especially when he's just trying it out)?

http://www.hwbot.org/hwbot.post.do?postId=689 10th of august 2007 - What past scores? YES, we can only judge based on what we see and what information we get from people. This is HWBot and we have rules to comfort everyone, to keep things fair. If you don't agree with the rules, you can always suggest something (just PM a crew member), but you cannot just upload scores against te rules. Teams are, to me, all about sharing: sharing knowledge. When it comes to the points system, we have avoid teams to share the hardware to get more points. The golden cpu example is a scenario which is very real when not using rules about hardware sharing. It's an example to show you what the problem is and why we those rules.

I'm sorry, but we are trying to think out a solution and then you come posting this? First of all, team rankings is what it all started from. Second, why should we drop the team rankings exactly? Because we can't control things? As far as I know, we have 250 teams where we have NO problems at all. Since the beginning we have ALWAYS stated that we want people to bench together, but that they should follow some rules to get the rankings and the points okay. Since day, we always tried to follow those rules and have managed to do so pretty well, we only had a few big cases. Now, we have this problem and suddenly everyone asks us why it is not allowed to share hardware in this way? To be honnest, I find it disturbing that you are actually saying "you can't know, so you can't judge". In the end, we judge if the scores are allowed on HWBot (so following the guidelines) or should not be allowed ('cause not following the guidelines). These are the rules of HWBot which we NEED in order to keep things clean . For instance, do you think the following situation should be approved? You have an insane E2180, which exceeds all other cpu's except mine. I have a golden chip which runs about 150MHz faster than yours. There's no problem, you're second and beaten by a better cpu. BUT, today I have invited all my OCTB-friends and I will let them, one by one, bench the cpu on their system with their tweaks, in total the 19 members of my team. Remember: it's their skill which is being tested. So the day after the benching, all upload their score of the E2180 and turns out ... you're not 2nd anymore, you moved to place 21th, having no points at all (loss will be: 7 benches x 10 points = 70 points). Will you still be satisfied by the fact that "all used their own system, just their own skill"? I agree, it might be a little over the edge, but this is simply what we have to deal with when redesigning the hardware sharing rules. If we DON'T set any rules, the rich teams will win ALL, which is NOT what we want. Oh, for the record: teams are all about sharing knowledge and helping each other and helping the team with your effort on your system. EDIT:// Would someone ask Hipro to finish his thread here? I have asked him a question on page2 which still has to be answered

Didn't see this thread before, so HAPPY New year everyone ! (you too Stummerwinter )

If you're benching with your gpu's, you should upload the results of 3D benchmarks

Yeap, pleasing everyone if pretty much undoable, however that does not mean that we should not stop rethinking rules and guidelines. HWBot is still very young as a bencher's platform and we still have to get rid of a few faults we couldn't think of in these 12-15 months. First of all, we are of course only interested in the skill of the bencher, not in the size of his wallet and I can follow your thoughts perfectly. However, I have some remarks: - We're not against buying and selling hardware, not at all, in despite of what you might think when reading the serial number idea. The idea is still just an idea and before we could even think of using it, we must work around some issues like you've mentioned (golden chips are sold to one another). - Lending chips and cards to fellow benchers seems very harmless and is in fact very natural. But, how would you feel if one day you have the second place in one category and the next week you're sixth, just because the one golden chip has been lend out to five members from the same team? - Your solution on above problem is a good solution, absolutely, but doesn't fit HWBot's intial policy when creating the hardware points, namely presenting a place where both the big shots ánd the little guys could bench together. We want to encourage those who only have 20 points to keep benching for the team. If you change the team's points rules to "only points for the best score", the little guys will have no challenge anymore. Monstru, please write down your ideas and contact me somehow as most of your ideas are very very good .

No, not correct here . The quote you are referring to is about sponsored stuff provided by a manufacturer to 1 person. If someone benched 3D at Hipro's lab with Hipro's videocards the result belongs to Hipro. That's the reason why I asked to specify who owns the hardware. Gorillakos, if you read this, drop me a message on MSN, need to ask something .

Actually, HWBot (well ... Mbot as it was named then) started as a forum league ... but that completely off topic.

As Intel has lend you that rig for review, it's your property for that week. All bench results are your property as well, so there's no problem in submitting those results

That is in fact a very clever idea . Good thinking! Second question has a positive response - Yes, the owner is (in this case) the person to who the cpu has been given to (for review or benches or anything else).

No one is trying to decrease HOT's points at all. The crew (and other users) just wondered how it's possible that so many members of one team score that high with pretty much the same setup. We have set a few ground rules regarding team runs and hardware sharing and those must be respected in any way. We have seen in the last few days/weeks that these rules are not covering all bases, so we're rewriting those again. Can we be 100% sure that someone is not respecting those rules? No. We will always partially rely on what the users submit and always need to be careful when handling this kind of situations. That's why we did not block the results right away and tried to contact the users first. I understand your background as a lawyer and I fully understand the principles of "innocent until proven guilty", but ... how on earth are we EVER going to provide evidence when we're not attending the bench session? We have to rely on what we see and try to make the correct conclusion. In fact, it should be really easy for us: if no user did something that can be seen as suspicious, we won't need result moderators. But sometimes we have certain circumstances in which users are confused by the rules or submit a wrong result by accident or even try to abuse hwbot to to gain more respect. These are the situation in which WE have to ask to the users what's happening . (btw: this is purely theory and none of these lines are referring to HOT!) This last point can be in bold: WHY do people think -ONCE AGAIN- that HWBot is biased by certain forums???. For once and for all, HWBot is impartial when it comes to deciding what results should be considered suspicious. If people have ideas of how the rules can be improved, you can always let us know. To get back on topic: waiting untill Hipro is back from 3DMarking () and answer my last question.

Sorry to not have fixed these, but I'm in the middle of my exams and I still have a lot to do. will try to fix this asap.

What does Elefsinaras and Giorgios th. own then? Good luck with you WR attempts

You pay start with the GF88 and X29 and yorkies, I reckon that will already take a while

So, can you tell me who owns what hardware?

Benching with the exact same hardware (for 3D: the exact same vga's and for 2d: the exact same cpu) is indeed illegal as stated in the article about the new subteam rules.

We're currently working on a set of improved rules as we have noticed that sponsored hardware / team hardware is really making thing a lot more difficult. I hear what your problem is (and I assume you can understand why this is a problem for us), but at this moment I have yet to find a solution for this issue. Question: You're talking about "we won". Is the hardware property of the team?

Yea, as soon as I find the time I will have a look at it. Thanks for the heads up!