steponz Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Why not.. it comes with the os? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingCain Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) I am not sure what the issue is. Performance wise there should not be an issue, it utilizes a few hundred microseconds (worst case) of CPU time for processing once every 1000 ms. The HPET/RTC frequency is coming from Unmanaged code / C++ by invoking Kernel32.dll. It's triple threaded, I am using basic primitives, instead of objects, one redraw per second, and Stopwatch object class, tick counts and utilizing platform clock frequency to time conversion. Start-up requires one extra function running through a BCDEDIT enumeration to determine if the Useplatformclock is set to yes. If you guys utilized the program, you would see how lightweight (almost zeroweight) it is. It even functions perfectly well given Low priority thread process. Installation wise there should not be an issue either: Windows 8 comes with .NET 4.0/4.5 by default (depending on the ISO / Setup Utility age.) Windows 8.1 comes with .NET 4.5 by default. Neither of which are removable. If there were valid criticisms, such as, the GFLOPS and GIOPS don't need to be calculated and displayed, that would be fine since this is just a prototype. They were initially there for testing FSB/Bclk manipulation, I just haven't had time to see how it phases them and tick drift. Since that was a calculatable concern when Windows 8+ was initially barred. Edited January 21, 2015 by RagingCain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daviangel Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I didn't realize the 3DMark 2013 was foolable to use or not use HPET/RTC. As I discovered, none of my results submitted were valid until I fully enabled HPET, and only HPET. Which correlates to the last post I made. I suppose if you gave me a list of desirable information, I could create an application with the data visible. Full (non-hybrid) HPET / RTC frequency is very different that soft clocks. It should be readily noticeable if it is on or off. Include some timestamp, how long the application has been running etc. I also don't know if it is possible to disable functionality in real time (i.e. it requires a reboot I think to disable it.) I suppose after a certain amount of "evidence" one should give the user the benefit of the doubt and once users start submitting results you can do similar system comparisons to weed out the shifty users. I would recommend separating results though. Windows 8.x vs. Windows 8.x for points. Since .NET is installed by default on Windows 8+ machines, I will make it 4.0 compatible, requiring only whats installed on the system. If you have any questions on what would be looked at: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn553408(v=vs.85).aspx This also seems to be the same issue in Windows 10, so something has to be done or benchers will have no choice but stick to Windows 7 forever. Yup seems to me that many of the gamers that were or are avoiding Win 8 are going to be more than happy to jump to Win 10! I'm surprised how many people are already running it considering that it is still in beta! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 The application looks pretty nice. I think we need to add a couple more things to make it useable for HWBOT validations 1) An "Allowed for HWBOT" image as visual cue for users to know if their platformclock is correct (and a "not valid" with help-option if that's not the case) 2) Some kind of time-stamp for the application to make sure people don't photoshop a "valid" Harmonic in the validation screenshot 3) Some kind of validation for the benchmark application. Something like a mention in the Harmonic interface which benchmark was running during the Harmonic monitoring time. Is that possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingCain Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) Let me know if this is sufficient on items 1 / 2. Also added the HWBOT.ORG logo as the icon. I hope that is alright, if not I will remove it. There is also a help page, link included below. Each item also has tool-tip explaining what each bit of information means. For the 3rd option, I would need an actual list of software you want me to look for so I can download it, run it and test each one. In addition to that, how would you like me to handle multiple benchmarks detected (i.e. multiple benchmarks running in memory)? Harmonic (x64) v0.003 - Direct Download VirusTotal Scan Help Link: http://www.bytemedev.com/harmonic-help/ Edited January 27, 2015 by RagingCain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taloken Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Great job 'Cain, finally a way to bench on W8+ ! ^^ But i suppose there is always a cheat possible by disabling HPET under OS after startup, and re-enabling it for screenshot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingCain Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Great job 'Cain, finally a way to bench on W8+ ! ^^ But i suppose there is always a cheat possible by disabling HPET under OS after startup, and re-enabling it for screenshot Thanks! It isn't possible to disable it while the OS is live. You can not turn HPET off without a reboot. You can't turn it on without a reboot. The only thing you can do to cheat is a Photoshop job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taloken Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Ok so the "HPET/RTC" button on Harmonic is only to enable/disable the check by the soft. That's right ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingCain Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Ok so the "HPET/RTC" button on Harmonic is only to enable/disable the check by the soft. That's right ? That button only sets the boot setting. Still have to reboot to enable or disable it. If you check the screenshots, it can be enabled and disabled but Harmonic will still show it invalid if HPET/RTC isn't actually being used by the OS. Vice versa, if it is enabled, then disabling the boot setting doesn't stop Harmonic from showing valid since it is still being used by the OS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GENiEBEN Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 New stuff to break, let me install w8 brb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingCain Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 New stuff to break, let me install w8 brb. I suppose an experienced trainer maker / software tinkerer would know they could edit a variable in memory. I assume that is the point you are going to make? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taloken Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 If it become conclusive, how about a integration request to CPUID to integrate it at CPU-Z ? The clockers are, i suppose, their best "customers" ^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COMIAS Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Hi, I just test under Win 7 SP1 soft, and want to know anything. for him it is not good. I put you screen. http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/585824harmonicv0003x64.png Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingCain Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 CPU-Z sell their own SDK, I am sure they could come up with this on their own. SDK is a little too expensive otherwise I would be using for my other programs. @COMIAS Ce programme ne pas le CPU. C'est pour votre horloge matérielle. If someone speaks French well, could they explain it? I would only butcher it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GENiEBEN Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 If it become conclusive, how about a integration request to CPUID to integrate it at CPU-Z ? The clockers are, i suppose, their best "customers" ^^ CPUZ had their solution at the time, just not integrated, never will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpmboy Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 if you guys should need an 8.1 "test dummy" for this surveillance bot - i'm in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taloken Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 CPU-Z sell their own SDK, I am sure they could come up with this on their own. SDK is a little too expensive otherwise I would be using for my other programs. @COMIAS Ce programme ne pas le CPU. C'est pour votre horloge matérielle. If someone speaks French well, could they explain it? I would only butcher it. Dont try to translate anything I think what he means is that it's not valid on W7, however it's considered as a "valid" OS. I presume that W7 use HPET correctly, so put a green result for Seven and below, even if HPET is used ^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingCain Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Dont try to translate anything I think what he means is that it's not valid on W7, however it's considered as a "valid" OS. I presume that W7 use HPET correctly, so put a green result for Seven and below, even if HPET is used ^^ I think HWBOT should make that decision. The program is only for Windows 8.x+ verifications regardless. That being said, he isn't using HPET/RTC, so it isn't "valid" in that sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Let me know if this is sufficient on items 1 / 2. Also added the HWBOT.ORG logo as the icon. I hope that is alright, if not I will remove it. There is also a help page, link included below. Each item also has tool-tip explaining what each bit of information means. For the 3rd option, I would need an actual list of software you want me to look for so I can download it, run it and test each one. In addition to that, how would you like me to handle multiple benchmarks detected (i.e. multiple benchmarks running in memory)? I'm not entirely sure of how to tackle this issue. The problem is that with the current tool it's possible to "photoshop" a valid one in to a screenshot. So the goal is to figure out a way to ensure that the Harmonic in the screenshot is the one used during the benchmark; or at least from the same session. Do you have any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingCain Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 (edited) I'm not entirely sure of how to tackle this issue. The problem is that with the current tool it's possible to "photoshop" a valid one in to a screenshot. So the goal is to figure out a way to ensure that the Harmonic in the screenshot is the one used during the benchmark; or at least from the same session. Do you have any suggestions? For a 3DMark submission, the timestamps of submission and the program screenshot should match up. I could generate a unique code based on the User's name, validity, and date. With a way to reverse the code to obtain the time stamp, user, and if it's valid. That still doesn't 100% rule out photoshop, just makes it more inconvenient. I could include more information, how long a program has been running such as 3dmark.exe, etc. I can include current up time, how long the OS/has been up. At some point a line where good enough will have to be crossed unfortunately, 1.) Has to be submitted within 10~15 minutes of taking the screenshot or the code will not match the submission times. This has its own issues, what if site is down, non-communicative etc. 2.) Program can show if xyz benchmark is running, and if it is, how long it has been running. 3.) Program can show if the system has been rebooted recently. 4.) I feel comfortable connecting to MYSQL or MSSQL databases, if you were wanting a timestamp submission. 5.) Taking submission idea further: If HWBOT wants to configure a web service, we could just create a submission through Harmonic itself. Include time stamp and watermark on top of a desktop screenshot (presuming all the information is visible to be submitted). There is nothing to photoshop as it is uploaded directly through the program. There is no end-user level of tampering. This would require a coordinated effort though with the HWBOT database/server admin and obviously some man hours on my end to pull off. I can do this if this is what everyone wants. Something essentially has to be done if HWBOT will ever move forward on a Windows platform. Edited February 2, 2015 by RagingCain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpmboy Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I really hope this gets resolved soon. It will not be long until HWBOT is 2 OS generations behind... with the majority of benchmarks barred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steponz Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 One big issue is it has to be light.. no dB installed and no webservice. Windows 8 + isn't faster for alot of things.. all the old os's are pretty much better for everything.. Why are we so worried about photoshop.. 32m can be done. Can't we have some type of encrypted value that is generated when it runs and completes.. or some type of a hash.. this way it's lightweight .. you can't make everything totally secure.. ya throw road blocks.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingCain Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 One big issue is it has to be light.. no dB installed and no webservice. Windows 8 + isn't faster for alot of things.. all the old os's are pretty much better for everything.. Why are we so worried about photoshop.. 32m can be done. Can't we have some type of encrypted value that is generated when it runs and completes.. or some type of a hash.. this way it's lightweight .. you can't make everything totally secure.. ya throw road blocks.. The DB would be something HWBOT hosted. Harmonic would merely communicate with it. Going forward with allowing Windows 8 / 10 isn't necessarily about speed boosts. Without the ability to move forward there will be no benchmarking in DX12 for example, Windows 10 uses the same FSB / soft clock setup. I do agree though that there is never a 100% fool proof method of cheat detection. Case and point: video game cheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steponz Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 big benchers don't use a network card and will strip it out. Has to be local... no network. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingCain Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 big benchers don't use a network card and will strip it out. Has to be local... no network. I am not making the rules or decisions on how you benchmark, or any one. I merely providing suggestions as was asked of me. You might need network connectivity as a requirement in the future. I don't make these decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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