Massman Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Is it ok to put the emphasis on who has the most endorsements or the deepest pockets, because thats easy to organise and code? My first "Is it ok..." statement wasnt intended to be bitchy, and I dont want this thread to go down that route, no offense was meant! Non taken, my post was to reverse your question and let you see the other side of the problem. Deepest pockets? Afaik a 3870 X2 is not the most expensive card on the market. This is just a matter of new hardware popping up and making things a little bit 'unfair'. I can see where you guys see a problem, but this discussion will come up everytime new hardware is launched //EDIT: This is a question related to the question: "How future-proof is HWBot?" ... and is in fact quite interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacha35 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 HI there all and i apologize for this long post to start with, but feel i need to put my point forward for the good and fun of this benching communities. will this be the same then when the new Intel skull trail Motherboard comes out benching against single slot CPU motherboards as this will still be only one motherboard but have two X4 CPU's on it? I think this will be totally unfair for the general bencher that has limited funds as all these CPU's/GPU's should be put in there own bracket and receive the points for that bracket within Hwbot scoring system. If this will be the case then it will be only about who has the biggest wallet of which is the case but this will make it even more so if this ruling is going to stand and will be a shame because i can see a lot of benchers out there just giving up as there will be know point in them benching due to this and the pricing of these new items. This is meant to be a fun thing that we all take part in and enjoy doing, but when it starts coming down to who has the most money then it will just be like an F1 team who has the most money will always win of which we have all seen the boring days of Ferrari and most did not bother watching TV because they new who would win the race. Coming from a Motor racing background yes it has always been about money who has the most wins,but there was different categories for different types of vehicle, the way you guys are putting this it is like saying lets race a 250cc Gokart against an F1, both has the maximum spent on them one has a two stroke twin cylinder engine and the other has a v10 engine in it,why would anyone compete because we all know that the F1 would win even if the Kart racer was a world champion and the F1 driver was a novice. But it is not done this way as you might know there are many different categories within motor sport and each is awarded the maximum points in there own categories. I personally think it would be a very good idea to have different categories/Price range of hardware and then award the given points for this categories, as someone on a very limited budget who can only afford the cheapest of parts can still be competitive in his own categories and be awarded the top points for this given categories, if this is not done as said i can see a lot of benchers just giving up the game as when the new Intel skull trail hits the market we all know this will be the winner and them who have the money to spend will wipe the floor with more experienced guys out there who just can not afford to purchase this new bit of kit. So in a nut shell please make different categories for different hardware, Single card is a single card with one GPU on it, single card with two GPU's is two GPU benching ECT. I hope i have made my points clear enough for all and for the goodness of this community and the fun involved please look into making these changes soon. Many Thanks for taking the time to read this and taking on board what i have said. Regards Sacha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richba5tard Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 I personally think it would be a very good idea to have different categories/Price range of hardware and then award the given points for this categories, as someone on a very limited budget who can only afford the cheapest of parts can still be competitive in his own categories and be awarded the top points for this given categories, if this is not done as said i can see a lot of benchers just giving up the game as when the new Intel skull trail hits the market we all know this will be the winner and them who have the money to spend will wipe the floor with more experienced guys out there who just can not afford to purchase this new bit of kit. So in a nut shell please make different categories for different hardware, Single card is a single card with one GPU on it, single card with two GPU's is two GPU benching ECT. Don't you contradict yourself? First you say divide by price range, than divide by GPU count. The HD3870X2 is the same price range, or cheaper, than a 8800GTX, but has twice the cores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacha35 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Don't you contradict yourself? First you say divide by price range, than divide by GPU count. The HD3870X2 is the same price range, or cheaper, than a 8800GTX, but has twice the cores. Know contardition at all, all i am asking is make two sets, one for Price/GPU and CPU then how many cors an item has, it will mean a lot of work on you guys but this way it will make it fair for all, as this way it should suite all out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Know contardition at all, all i am asking is make two sets, one for Price/GPU and CPU then how many cors an item has, it will mean a lot of work on you guys but this way it will make it fair for all, as this way it should suite all out there. I'm afraid that much competitions will make the hwboints useless, which is not what we want. We should look for a good, yet easy and understandible solution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacha35 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 I'm afraid that much competitions will make the hwboints useless, which is not what we want.We should look for a good, yet easy and understandible solution I agree with you Massman, but it should still be easy to do, what i am worried about is that we will see a decline in benchers because of the amount that they will have to part with just to be able to bench or even try and be competitive in this field, if this is not done i can see a fast decline in benchers around the world as the simply wont be able to afford the expense this will impose on them. Yes as said it will mean a load of work from you guys with Code ECT, but i think you could have something great at the end of the day in each section by doing this, as everyone can then see what is the best in each of any given field with different hardwear used. My early point about Motor sport said it all, everyone can have just as much fun and enjoyment from different categories this way as they will be competing on an even playing filed and at there affordable expense. 3870 X2 is a single card, not SLI/CF, end of story. Yes single card but with two GPU's on it, what you are saying is not right, this is like saying a single engine car of 2000cc competing with a twin engine 4000cc car, only one car but one has two engines and the same goes for this new 3870x2 card as it has two engines on one PCB so this should not be put in the same categories as a single cad with one GPU as it only has one engine to process the information it receives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Regarding different categories: that's what the Hardware Points are for ~ providing competition for one piece of hardware. The main problem seems to be the global rankings here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazx Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 Today's top benchmark scores. 3Dmark 2006 - 24837 marks - CapFTP (Tecnocomputer.it) - [#1 in 3Dmark 2006 with a single graphic card] - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 930/1080mhz [#1 Radeon HD 3870 X2 in 3Dmark 2006] ) 102.7 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ] 3Dmark 2005 - 34481 marks - CapFTP (Tecnocomputer.it) - [#1 in 3Dmark 2005 with a single graphic card] - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 931/1080mhz [#1 Radeon HD 3870 X2 in 3Dmark 2005] ) 98.2 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ] 3Dmark 2003 - 78022 marks - CapFTP (Tecnocomputer.it) - [#1 in 3Dmark 2003 with a single graphic card] - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 931/1080mhz [#1 Radeon HD 3870 X2 in 3Dmark 2003] ) 95.2 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ] 3Dmark 2006 - 23587 marks - jimmyz (XtremeSystems) - [#2 in 3Dmark 2006 with a single graphic card] - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 900/1060mhz [#2 Radeon HD 3870 X2 in 3Dmark 2006] ) 82.1 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ] 3Dmark 2003 - 76450 marks - pro (i4memory.com) - [#2 in 3Dmark 2003 with a single graphic card] - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 918/1098mhz [#2 Radeon HD 3870 X2 in 3Dmark 2003] ) 76.2 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ] 3Dmark 2006 - 23392 marks - eleven (OutOfSpecs.Gr) - [#3 in 3Dmark 2006 with a single graphic card] - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 855/955mhz [#3 Radeon HD 3870 X2 in 3Dmark 2006] ) 71.9 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ] 3Dmark 2006 - 23121 marks - pro (i4memory.com) - [#4 in 3Dmark 2006 with a single graphic card] - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 918/1098mhz [#4 Radeon HD 3870 X2 in 3Dmark 2006] ) 66.6 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ] 3Dmark 2005 - 33132 marks - eleven (OutOfSpecs.Gr) - [#4 in 3Dmark 2005 with a single graphic card] - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 855/955mhz [#2 Radeon HD 3870 X2 in 3Dmark 2005] ) 64.3 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ] 3Dmark 2003 - 74568 marks - jimmyz (XtremeSystems) - [#4 in 3Dmark 2003 with a single graphic card] - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 900/1060mhz [#4 Radeon HD 3870 X2 in 3Dmark 2003] ) 61.6 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ] 3Dmark 2006 - 22971 marks - Pt1t (OverCleX) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 918/1062mhz [#5 Radeon HD 3870 X2 in 3Dmark 2006] ) 57.7 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ] how can all of these scores be single card when there are 2x GPU it is wrong these cards should not be in the single GPU rankings it just does not work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1ch Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 how can all of these scores be single card when there are 2x GPU it is wrong these cards should not be in the single GPU rankings it just does not work Baz, they're in the single card rankings...which at the moment is how it's differentiated. The way of changing this is for the good folk here responsible for hwbot to be talked round into changing the system to differentiate by GPUs and not cards or sockets. I know it's not a democracy here, and we're in massman and rich's hands, but I personally think this should go down to a vote. Categorising system based on: - Cards (i.e 8800GTX in same category as HD3870X2) or - GPUs (i.e HD3870X2 in same category as SLI 8800GT) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 A poll might not a stupid idea, I'll work on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF3D Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Sometimes picture is better than thousand words. 1GPU / 2GPU = single cards 1 Core/ 4 Core = Single processors Let's stop this nonsense now. Categories based on sockets is much better solution at the moment. Simple is sometimes better! That's my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o polonos Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 One PCB = single card to me If im gonna buy 3870x2 im gonna buy ONE card NOT TWO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predator Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 My 2 cents i understand "frustration" of some users as Bazx, it's "unfair" seeing all your effort with LN2 and vmodded cards seen slaughtered by multiple core vgas, but this is the way it is i guess, it's not only reltaed to a component if it has more than one core in it, every new generation wipes out the former ones, we cannot fight against the Moore laws here i see the X2 as a single card, ATI had a good call implementing two cores in one PCB, the card itself is not as expensive as others and right now it's the most powerful card in the market and don't forget this happened yet before, 7950GX2 had even 2 PCBs and it was ranked in single card category, the same goes for multiple cores CPUs, you can not compete in 3D06 with dual cores or in wprime against 4 or more cores CPUs, yet it has never been spliited in different categories my suggestion would be to redefine the algorithm and put more value in hardware rankings, assorting hwboints in order not to loose a lot of points for example in 2900XTs single or 8800 as soon as a new card hits the market and blows the scores off saludos! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacha35 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Ok Guys if this is how you feel just wait until the new Intel Skultrail hits the market, i hope we can keep this as a single motherboard then as it will wipe the floor with any single CPU'd motherboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF3D Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Ok Guys if this is how you feel just wait until the new Intel Skultrail hits the market, i hope we can keep this as a single motherboard then as it will wipe the floor with any single CPU'd motherboard. Skulltrail doesn't change anything. For example 3DM06 can use only 4 cores. If you have eight or sixteen, only four of them are doing job. It will be single motherboard and basic system with huge computing power in multithreated tasks. No worries about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacha35 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Skulltrail doesn't change anything. For example 3DM06 can use only 4 cores. If you have eight or sixteen, only four of them are doing job. It will be single motherboard and basic system with huge computing power in multithreated tasks. No worries about that. This is what i am saying, all the multithreated tasks benchmarks will go to the Skulltrail, so as long as we are happy with a dule GPU being a single card then we should be happy with an 2 x 4 cores on one motherboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demiurg Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 3D03: rankings below It is the same situation as with 8800GTX 1,5 year ago or with 7950GX2 2 уеаrs ago. Then G100/R700 will appear it will beat all "2GPUs"-card So I think there is no need to change rahkings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1ch Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 One PCB = single card to me If im gonna buy 3870x2 im gonna buy ONE card NOT TWO So what about the 9800GX2 and 7950GX2 that has 2 PCB's? Do they go in a different section? It is a little ambiguous. As i've said multiple times before and not been challenged, I think it should be categorised by the number of GPUs. Obviously that means a lot of work for rich, and i understand if he would rather just ignore this and keep things as they are. I think it is a little unfair to have 3870X2 vs single gpu...and it's not like 'new tech vs old' because that would be like 8800 vs 7900 which deservedly gets beaten as it's a new architecture. This isn't new. # of GPU's, or state your intentions and close the thread IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF3D Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 How it is unfair to have 3870X2? They are available to everyone who want to have them. When you can have two 3870X2 on same setup it will be Dual Card setup and there is own multiple card section for it. No changes are really needed. I don't feel bad, if my previous scores are beaten badly by new cards. It is part of this game. We all just have to accept that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazar Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 If 7950GX2 was at single category, it is no doubt 3870X2 should remain as a single card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1ch Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 How it is unfair to have 3870X2? They are available to everyone who want to have them. When you can have two 3870X2 on same setup it will be Dual Card setup and there is own multiple card section for it. No changes are really needed. I don't feel bad, if my previous scores are beaten badly by new cards. It is part of this game. We all just have to accept that. I never said it was unfair to have one, you need the whole sentence to get the context of my point. I said it was unfair to have it vs a single gpu card. That's all I, and I think baz, sacha and everyone else is saying. Massman, if we can get that poll, I'm happy to go with the general concensus as long as the post that contains the polls makes it very clear what the differential is. Thanks for all the constructive comments everyone If 7950GX2 was at single category, it is no doubt 3870X2 should remain as a single card. There is a well-known saying..."To cut off your nose to spite your face". There's no point repeating a decision from the past just because you made a (potentially wrong) decision in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 r1ch;15440']Massman' date=' if we can get that poll, I'm happy to go with the general concensus as long as the post that contains the polls makes it very clear what the differential is. [/quote'] The poll should represent most of the HWBot community, so 2/3 should vote and in order to change things, I believe it's necessary to have 2/3 of the voters say yes on the change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF3D Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 r1ch;15440']I never said it was unfair to have one' date=' you need the whole sentence to get the context of my point. I said it was unfair to have it [b']vs a single gpu card[/b]. That's all I, and I think baz, sacha and everyone else is saying. Single card is a single card. No matter how many gpu's are under the heatsink. Just quit arguing about this. I don't want to sound rude, but this conversation is starting to get stupid. If there is multiple cores in procerssor, why graphics card should be any different. Bench results with 2 x 3870X2 will go to SLI/CF section. That's the way it will be. I have nothing more to say! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazx Posted February 2, 2008 Author Share Posted February 2, 2008 then we will have to play the game your way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1ch Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 Single card is a single card. No matter how many gpu's are under the heatsink. Just quit arguing about this. Arguing is probably the wrong word - I'm promoting the discussion of the topic. It's something that needs to be discussed as there's a number of people with the same opinion. I'm not trying to say a single card isn't a single card...that's like trying to say 2 + 2 =/= 4. I'm disagreeing with the use of the term 'card' as a category. I'm allowed to disagree. If the choice (by hwbot, by you, by vote or whatever) is continue with the current way I will respect that decision and this debate will be over. From what others (Massman) are saying though, I don't think this debate is over, and I welcome that vote - obviously it would need to be advertised to attract attention (hwbot front page?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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