This is ridiculous!

[ThePromisedLAN]

This scoring system is looking worse and worse the more I look at it. A 6700k running at STOCK speeds is beating out my 6600k that is at 4.9GHz. The fact that they are ignoring hyper threading and dividing scores by the amount of physical cores is screwing over some processors. I understand it is hard to factor in hyper threading, but if you are willing to add a system to even the playing field than it should actually even the playing field rather than send every 6700k to the top scores without them even trying. Im pretty sure all but one or two 6700k processors are in the top 15, with the entire top 10 being 6700k processors. That is just messed up, and it needs to change.

[Massman]

It's quite difficult to factor in hyper-threading when trying to level the playing field. If we divide by core count, the HT-enabled parts have an advantage. If we divide by thread count, the HT-disabled parts have an advantage.

[ThePromisedLAN]

It's quite difficult to factor in hyper-threading when trying to level the playing field. If we divide by core count, the HT-enabled parts have an advantage. If we divide by thread count, the HT-disabled parts have an advantage.

That is true, but there has to be some way to factor it in to make it somewhat fair. Or better yet just have it so hyper threading isn't allowed.

 

This would be perfectly fine if hyper threading gave a very small advantage, like only a few percent, but isn't it somewhere around a 40% gain? It is literally making a stock 6700k better than a jackpot find in the silicon lottery 6600k.

 

I completely understand it is hard to deal with hyper threading in this case, but what is the point in even adding a scoring system to balance it out when it gives some a huge lead and others a disadvantage? From what I have seen the only processor with a chance of winning is the 6700k, they instantly shoot to the top. All I want is a fair game.

[Massman]

The rule helps even the playing field for the 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10-cores. The Core i3s will be competitive against the Broadwell-E 10c in the next stages.

 

The Core i5 is a great CPU for the price, but a giant pain to organize competitions around. We do address this in the Challenger Divisions, however. Division 2 of the Challenger series is limited to Core i5 only, so that would give you a fair game: OC eSports.

[ThePromisedLAN]

The rule helps even the playing field for the 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10-cores. The Core i3s will be competitive against the Broadwell-E 10c in the next stages.

 

The Core i5 is a great CPU for the price, but a giant pain to organize competitions around. We do address this in the Challenger Divisions, however. Division 2 of the Challenger series is limited to Core i5 <span style="font-style:italic;">only</span>, so that would give you a fair game: <a href="http://oc-esports.io/#!/series/challenger_div_ii">OC eSports</a>.

Im sorry to sound rude about this but that is really stupid if you ask me. You should make a competition as fair as you can for everyone or don't do it at all. Disable hyper threading and divide scores by all cores, that balances it out for everyone even for core i5. I got an email about a competition limited to only msi boards, I check it out and the prizes look nice, by the overclocks people were getting I should do good so I entered, but because of hyper threading I got screwed over. So now after asking for a fair fight im told you cant do that because its too hard and I should enter a different competition instead. I shouldnt have to enter another competition if I want a fair fight, it should be fair to begin with. You tell me its too hard to balance it out for everyone yet if you disallow hyper threading (we are all overclockers, we should know how to do that rather easily) and continue to divide by all cores it will still balance the playing field.

 

I expected a competition that is being done in partnership with msi, gskill, and intel to be a more fair fight all around.

[newlife]

Complaining about a i7 being faster than a i5 is as good as complaining that a 1070 is slower than a 1080

[ThePromisedLAN]

Complaining about a i7 being faster than a i5 is as good as complaining that a 1070 is slower than a 1080

You seem to be missing the whole point of this. A scoring system was put in to even the playing field, the scores are divided by number of cores, giving lower core cpus a chance against higher core cpus and brings it more into a overclocking game. The only problem is they are not taking hyper threading into account so a four core hyper threaded i7 is being scored like a four core cpu even with the added performance of hyper threading, while a four core i5 is only working with its four cores and thats it.

 

To give you a better idea of where my problem with this scoring is let me use my current situation as an example. I have a 6600k clocked at 4.9GHz. It is currently being beat by a stock 6700k (not even boost clock, but the stock 4GHz). One core vs one core the 4.9GHz 6600k should destroy the 6700k, but because of the hyper threading increasing the performance but not taken into account when evening out the score based on cores it is gaining a huge advantage.

 

This isn't a "complaining that a 1070 is slower than a 1080" problem, its a problem that they are trying to make it a core for core overclocking competition, yet ignoring a huge performance gain that is making the playing field completely uneven. Take a moment and read the comments, massman even recognizes the hyper threading as a legitimate problem, although they don't seem to be willing to even attempt to make it balanced.

[Massman]

You certainly have a valid point and we'll try to adapt the rules for competitions in the future to also accommodate for the Core i5 users. For this competition we will leave things as it is, however, as the competition is already on-going.

 

In any case, I appreciate the feedback

[JunkDogg]

Joins HWBOT, makes 2 submissions and starts complaining about the scoring mechanic?

 

You go son!

[newlife]

For the most part the performance difference between an i5 and i7 isn't that big but xtu has a huge bias towards HTT and newer architectures and a solution for further comps if hwbot decides is to just make everyone disable HTT although for some things a i7 will still have an advantage because of more cache

 

Unless I'm mistaken both the i5/i7 are quad cores and 1070/1080 are single card but with very different performance unlike the i5/i7

[Leeghoofd]

Easiest way is to pick benchmarks which don't favour the HT... though on the other side, users with a HT equipped CPU will moan because we didn' t pick 3D06 or Wprime to take full benefit of their more expensive processor...

 

One simply can't win...

[sunset1]

Exactly ^^^^^ should we handicap a person who bought the hyperthreading processor because in your words, "This would be perfectly fine if hyper threading gave a very small advantage, like only a few percent, but isn't it somewhere around a 40% gain? It is literally making a stock 6700k better than a jackpot find in the silicon lottery 6600k. " I mean seriously i cant afford that hardware but such is the nature of the game.

 

So do we also handicap people with a 6600k "golden chip?" one that overclocks better than all the rest? I mean buying pre-binned chips are all the rage now so isn't that an advantage? ( silicon lottery 6600k) for instance.

 

If and when you join the ranks of those who have a golden 6600k chip or a 6700k , i think you will look back on this conversation in a different light. Maybe it will take a bit when the chips get sold to get the latest and greatest but we cant all compete with the better chip.

 

In the end its not so much about the hardware but how to use it. Tips, tweaks, learned knowledge, tenacity and luck seem to be as much as part of the equation as the hardware.

 

I hope you decide to take the long view as i have because we all deal with the same issues. Sometimes it works in your favor, some times it doesn't but it's not news. Not by a long shot.

 

And i mean no disrespect but calling things stupid and demanding a "fair fight" that takes power from a better processor to bench with your rig is only "fair" to those with that processor.

 

Everyone on the mailing list got the email. Take some time to get to know the competitions and the rules. There are a lot of them.

And good luck, there are different competitions all the time.

[Guest george.kokovinis]

To the OP.

 

I would strongly advise you to keep things in check.

Titles as "this is ridiculous" and your attitude won't help you here.

 

A bunch of highly skilled guys work day and night wo that we can ALL enjoy our hobby FOR FREE in one of the best communities of the web.

 

So, ask kindly.

The point system does not and can not satisfy 100% all of us.

It is the best compromise available and the folks at HWBOT work hard to make it even better.

 

That is all.

[scannick]

There are a lot of competitions and bench, just check and choose which are better for your HW

[ThePromisedLAN]

You certainly have a valid point and we'll try to adapt the rules for competitions in the future to also accommodate for the Core i5 users. For this competition we will leave things as it is, however, as the competition is already on-going.

 

In any case, I appreciate the feedback

Thank you

 

You certainly have a valid point and we'll try to adapt the rules for competitions in the future to also accommodate for the Core i5 users. For this competition we will leave things as it is, however, as the competition is already on-going.

 

In any case, I appreciate the feedback

Thank you

 

Joins HWBOT, makes 2 submissions and starts complaining about the scoring mechanic? <br/>

<br/>

You go son!

And is there a problem with that? I felt the scoring wasn't fair so I spoke up about it to try and make things fair.

Edited August 10, 2016 by websmile
more triple posts

[ThePromisedLAN]

For the most part the performance difference between an i5 and i7 isn't that big but xtu has a huge bias towards HTT and newer architectures and a solution for further comps if hwbot decides is to just make everyone disable HTT although for some things a i7 will still have an advantage because of more cache<br/>

<br/>

Unless I'm mistaken both the i5/i7 are quad cores and 1070/1080 are single card but with very different performance unlike the i5/i7

I still don't fully understand your 1070 to 1080 comparison in this case, it doesn't really fit. An i7 is better than it's corresponding i5 due to mainly it's hyper threading. When you look at it in single core performance it's a really close fight.

 

Exactly ^^^^^ should we handicap a person who bought the hyperthreading processor because in your words, "This would be perfectly fine if hyper threading gave a very small advantage, like only a few percent, but isn't it somewhere around a 40% gain? It is literally making a stock 6700k better than a jackpot find in the silicon lottery 6600k. " I mean seriously i cant afford that hardware but such is the nature of the game. <br/>

<br/>

So do we also handicap people with a 6600k "golden chip?" one that overclocks better than all the rest? I mean buying pre-binned chips are all the rage now so isn't that an advantage? ( silicon lottery 6600k) for instance. <br/>

<br/>

If and when you join the ranks of those who have a golden 6600k chip or a 6700k , i think you will look back on this conversation in a different light. Maybe it will take a bit when the chips get sold to get the latest and greatest but we cant all compete with the better chip. <br/>

<br/>

In the end its not so much about the hardware but how to use it. Tips, tweaks, learned knowledge, tenacity and luck seem to be as much as part of the equation as the hardware. <br/>

<br/>

I hope you decide to take the long view as i have because we all deal with the same issues. Sometimes it works in your favor, some times it doesn't but it's not news. Not by a long shot. <br/>

<br/>

And i mean no disrespect but calling things stupid and demanding a "fair fight" that takes power from a better processor to bench with your rig is only "fair" to those with that processor. <br/>

<br/>

Everyone on the mailing list got the email. Take some time to get to know the competitions and the rules. There are a lot of them. <br/>

And good luck, there are different competitions all the time.

I get what you are saying. And yes, in some cases there will be times when the most expensive hardware is going to put you at the top. There is already a scoring system in to make it more of a fair fight (dividing score by number of cores) it just didn't end up being the fair game it should be.

 

To the OP.<br/>

<br/>

I would strongly advise you to keep things in check.<br/>

Titles as "this is ridiculous" and your attitude won't help you here.<br/>

<br/>

A bunch of highly skilled guys work day and night wo that we can ALL enjoy our hobby FOR FREE in one of the best communities of the web.<br/>

<br/>

So, ask kindly.<br/>

The point system does not and can not satisfy 100% all of us.<br/>

It is the best compromise available and the folks at HWBOT work hard to make it even better.<br/>

<br/>

That is all.

A title like that helps pull people in, gets this seen and it worked. And I really only had one post where I showed an attitude, most of it depends how you read into it. Is it the best system possible? No. Can it be made better? Yes. If putting in our input at users can make it better why would you not speak up? If i feel something is unfair in my mind I speak up about it, and I'm either wrong and someone explains it better to me, or I'm right and I get things moving towards a better change.

Edited August 10, 2016 by websmile
triple posts

[mickulty]

So, OP, what's your take on people like me? I could probably just barely afford an i5 4690k with the entirety of my disposable income for this month, if I also sell my laptop - I already have a Z87 motherboard that I was extremely lucky to get for next to nothing. Should your skylake scores be cut down so I can compete on haswell? Because there's no way I could afford to buy into skylake unless I go i3 and pushing skylake i3s above a 3% OC disables AVX and cripples XTU scores so hyperthreading or not that wouldn't even be close per-core.

 

Oh, except your scores are entires into an MSI-only competition. The only MSI motherboard I have is AM3+ and the best AM3+ chip I have is a Phenom X4 965. Guess I should go campaign for XTU to be banned because I can't run it? And of course a sizeable handicap so my Phenom X4 can compete with skylake i5s.

 

So, what do you think, should I do that? Or should I recognise that yes, sometimes different hardware has an advantage. And that's the way it is, there is literally nothing that can be done to change that without handicaps that would create more problems than they solved. And whining about something I can't easily win being "messed up" because I can't easily win it is not productive and frankly poisons the water a bit in a community that's supposed to be about pushing hardware, not throwing a strop if you can't win. And then should I go back to putting my effort into tuning hardware, even when it's an ancient motherboard that cost £10 and has no OC options in the bios so I had to manually change bits in the PLL chip to OC on it, rather than complaining with absolutely no self-awareness?

 

Yeah, I think I'll go with the latter. Maybe you should do something similar. And maybe when you feel the need to complain that it's tough for you because you don't have the most expensive hardware, you should consider the fact that there are plenty of people who would love to have the kit you're taking for granted.

 

By the way, your score seems low for the frequency you're at. Try and improve ram speeds or tighten latencies if you can, might add some headroom if you go down to 2x4GB sticks, but also you'll get better scores if your OS is totally stripped down with nothing running in the background and no extraneous services running - the people who get the best scores generally have a separate installation for benchmarking.

[ThePromisedLAN]

So, OP, what's your take on people like me? I could probably just barely afford an i5 4690k with the entirety of my disposable income for this month, if I also sell my laptop - I already have a Z87 motherboard that I was extremely lucky to get for next to nothing. Should your skylake scores be cut down so I can compete on haswell? Because there's no way I could afford to buy into skylake unless I go i3 and pushing skylake i3s above a 3% OC disables AVX and cripples XTU scores so hyperthreading or not that wouldn't even be close per-core.

 

Oh, except your scores are entires into an MSI-only competition. The only MSI motherboard I have is AM3+ and the best AM3+ chip I have is a Phenom X4 965. Guess I should go campaign for XTU to be banned because I can't run it? And of course a sizeable handicap so my Phenom X4 can compete with skylake i5s.

 

So, what do you think, should I do that? Or should I recognise that yes, sometimes different hardware has an advantage. And that's the way it is, there is literally nothing that can be done to change that without handicaps that would create more problems than they solved. And whining about something I can't easily win being "messed up" because I can't easily win it is not productive and frankly poisons the water a bit in a community that's supposed to be about pushing hardware, not throwing a strop if you can't win. And then should I go back to putting my effort into tuning hardware, even when it's an ancient motherboard that cost £10 and has no OC options in the bios so I had to manually change bits in the PLL chip to OC on it, rather than complaining with absolutely no self-awareness?

 

Yeah, I think I'll go with the latter. Maybe you should do something similar. And maybe when you feel the need to complain that it's tough for you because you don't have the most expensive hardware, you should consider the fact that there are plenty of people who would love to have the kit you're taking for granted.

 

By the way, your score seems low for the frequency you're at. Try and improve ram speeds or tighten latencies if you can, might add some headroom if you go down to 2x4GB sticks, but also you'll get better scores if your OS is totally stripped down with nothing running in the background and no extraneous services running - the people who get the best scores generally have a separate installation for benchmarking.

If I'm beat out by fair scores so be it. If core for core someone beats me than congrats to them. But currently due to how hyper threading is scored it's not a true core to core comparison. I'm not complaining cause I'm losing, if I had a low end processor and had no chance of winning I wouldn't try and get the scores changed so I had a chance. What I will do is try and get the scores changed if someone had an unfair advantage and I felt like I've been cheated out of the scores I deserve.

[mickulty]

I'm not complaining cause I'm losing, if I had a low end processor and had no chance of winning I wouldn't try and get the scores changed so I had a chance.

 

My whole point was that is literally exactly what you're doing. You have a lower end processor that lacks a feature that would otherwise let the cores do more work.

[mr.paco]

If understanding you correctly; because you dont own a better or particular cpu you would like to have them change the system to suit YOU and what YOU own. Thats a new one.

Not every one can enter every competition because no one has every piece of hardware ever made.

They try to make comps as flexible as possible when they can to allow as many as possible to participate. Just sometimes you dont have what it takes may it be the hardware or the time.

There will always be someone complaining about one thing or another because they (Bot Team) can not please EVERYONE. But they definitely do try.

[Guest george.kokovinis]

If understanding you correctly; because you dont own a better or particular cpu you would like to have them change the system to suit YOU and what YOU own. Thats a new one.

Not every one can enter every competition because no one has every piece of hardware ever made.

They try to make comps as flexible as possible when they can to allow as many as possible to participate. Just sometimes you dont have what it takes may it be the hardware or the time.

There will always be someone complaining about one thing or another because they (Bot Team) can not please EVERYONE. But they definitely do try.

 

 

HAHA !

 

Now guess what OP.

The gentleman I quoted, happens to be my captain in the First Team in the world, W9.

Now, please try to understand this -

This gentleman, Mr.Paco, is the BIGGEST COLLECTOR OF HARDWARE that exists worldwide.

 

He has, five rooms, about 200 square meters, where you must step on hardware to pass by.

 

Having said that, Mr.Paco was extremely angry this year, because the rules of Team Cup 2016, caught him off guard and he is missing two items.

 

GOT THE MESSAGE ?

[newlife]

I still don't fully understand your 1070 to 1080 comparison in this case, it doesn't really fit. An i7 is better than it's corresponding i5 due to mainly it's hyper threading. When you look at it in single core performance it's a really close fight.

 

Dude, you are complaining about a lower end product being slower than a higher priced and higher end product, that is my point and I fail to see how you can't understand that

 

Oh and I vote for all future comps to limited to fm2/fm2+ platforms as they are the only CPU's i can afford to bin..... Oh bunny it why not AM1 only because that way a board and CPU is only $100

 

I should also note I'm a strong supporter of benching lower end hardware and really think hwbot has done a good job trying to make sure everyone is included with the Challenger comps

[mickulty]

Oh and I vote for all future comps to limited to fm2/fm2+ platforms as they are the only CPU's i can afford to bin..... Oh bunny it why not AM1 only because that way a board and CPU is only $100

 

To be fair it'd be great to see an AM1 competition. Could even provide a mix of 2D and 3D.

 

(says the guy who hasn't got round to voltmodding his 710 yet...)

 

Having said that, Mr.Paco was extremely angry this year, because the rules of Team Cup 2016, caught him off guard and he is missing two items.

 

Guessing radeon 2000 series, what was the second?

[mr.paco]

Guessing radeon 2000 series, what was the second?

LOL ...

 

second, DDR-4 ...

[ThePromisedLAN]

<blockquote><span style="font-weight:bold;">ThePromisedLAN said: </span>I still don't fully understand your 1070 to 1080 comparison in this case, it doesn't really fit. An i7 is better than it's corresponding i5 due to mainly it's hyper threading. When you look at it in single core performance it's a really close fight.<br/>

</blockquote><br/>

<br/>

Dude, you are complaining about a lower end product being slower than a higher priced and higher end product, that is my point and I fail to see how you can't understand that<br/>

<br/>

Oh and I vote for all future comps to limited to fm2/fm2+ platforms as they are the only CPU's i can afford to bin..... Oh bunny it why not AM1 only because that way a board and CPU is only $100<br/>

<br/>

I should also note I'm a strong supporter of benching lower end hardware and really think hwbot has done a good job trying to make sure everyone is included with the Challenger comps

I'm on lunch break so I'll respond to more people when I have a chance later. For now though you are still comparing apples to oranges. This comp is basically doing a core to core performance, but how they are calculating it is giving hyper threading an advantage. Look at 6700k and 6600k single core performance and it's really close, close enough to the point that a highly overclocked 6600k is at a disadvantage compared to a stock 6700k, which really makes no sense.