Dejo and Dejo's daughter accounts

[Massman]

Please refer to post #60 and set a good example...then we will happily follow suite

 

I was notified by Gautam that was indeed funny.

 

That being said, I have to admit that Thomas is my father and I'm only 12-years old as well (some say I'm promising though).

 

All jokes aside, it's not possible that Thomas' score is mine because I have awesomely better efficiency than him. That 13.58s of him is simply super-slow ... I wouldn't even dare to make a screenshot of that score.

[miahallen]

Despite it being funny (which it was, thank you )

If we were to seriously complain about it, then it would be a total double standard!

[Gautam]

So Thomas is indeed the mysterious "sugardaddy"?

[dejo1]

That's very wrong reasoning.

 

What you're saying is: "as long as we're up front, we can do what we want". Dejo asked hwbot what our stance was, we made clear it would be considered faul play, and he did what he wanted anyway. It's not because it's 'obvious' it's suddenly okay again.

 

Again, we are not punishing anyone. It's not an accusation of cheating. It's not about guilt or anything like that. In fact, all this was just because hwbot asked if it was possible to take other community members into consideration. Apparently that is not possible

 

I dont want to stir this anymore than it already is. It got insane in a hurry. but.....

 

the pm that I sent asked if I could use a processor that I wasnt using anymore to let her gain points. The response was only if I removed points I had gained from that processor and then she could use the same one. The response time from my pm to the reply was almost 3 weeks. In that time I got her her own processor, another 920 that is the same stepping but slightly different batch, 3 weeks newer batch for hers.

 

by the time that I had a reply, we had a new processor for her to bench that wasnt hardware sharing. We (October and I, I was coaching her, she is 12 remember. but has been watching me bench for years) put the processor in one of my x58 boards. Mounted the cpu pot and filled with dice, and benched away. I submitted her first set of results, as she had wore out from our could session (several hours of straight benching). Within 2 hours of me submitting her scores, I get a reply- "So you did it anyway!, from Massman himself. No pm asking if this was indeed the same cpu that I had used, which isnt the case. I also asked if there was not some kind of identifier in the cpuz submissions between hers and mine that could identify that they are different cpu's, not sure if that is the case. to this I never got a response at all from anyone at hwbot.

 

Then about 2 weeks later I get email, stating that one of her submissions had been block by hwbot. I pm the mod that blocked said submission. I was told "it is obvious that these 2 scores are the same run and just alt-tabbed in a new AM3 screen". These are the 2 AM3 submissions that are in question in another post in this thread. That to me is being called a cheater. I did the wrong this and went off (usually regret when I do this). As they are indeed 2 different runs and with 2 different cards. But the pm also stated that if she did have her own 480 then all was cool. I pm'ed back stating that I do have 2 cards and have submissions posted with said 2 cards. Reply stated that "I was really just looking out for you as others may start flagging these submissions as they are very similar". I reply that "similar doesnt make something illegal", I also apologized for my rude first response. I have a ton of respect for the mod that I was in pm with. I did regret my response, and cant take that back. But also stated that I cant take her being called a cheater, and if they wanted her gone or the both of us gone to just let me know I would leave and not come back, nor submit anything further from either of us.

 

Then about another 2 weeks go by and I get another pm stating that I need to close one of the 2 accounts. I didnt go off, but did state that I didnt like getting accused of cheating. And that this was the 3rd time we had been accused of it, and that I would never take that very well. Also stated that if there was a thought that we were cheating that a pm to me directly to at least have a say in what we are doing, or to just defend ourselves.

 

Everytime that I have been pm'ed from hwbot, I have promptly replied, The first pm from Massman it did take me a whole day before I seen that he had pm'ed me. Other than that I have been very responsive to pm's and then they just quit coming. Then I get accused of not responding to thier pm's.

 

I know that we are on the grey line. But I feel that what we do is no different than others having a group session, using other members cpu's for 3d runs and posting. I have seen videos of this going on, and no such requesting for thier accounts to be closed. Sure we are in the same household, sure she has used my cpu's for 3d runs. If this is indeed illegal or immoral, let me know via pm and reasoning, or at least make some kind of documentation that it shouldnt go on and we will remove one of the accounts.

 

I feel that all this started as I felt that we were getting accused of cheating. Her not being able to do such runs at 12, and it really set me off. This on my part, started with me thinking that I was defending her. I will do that everytime. And would hope that every father would do the same. I did make a post that I was unhappy with what was going on here, believing that the whole deal was hwbot thinking that we were cheating, using the same gpu's for seperate submissions.

 

I will apologize for the ruckus that is going on now. I am sure that rev4 will address whatever issues there are anyway.

[Massman]

Why is it so difficult for you/the staff to stand up for what you believe in and what has been proven right?

 

Ironically, we believe in making sure the community does not have to go through a lot of drama. Therefore, providing a dozen of suggestions to overcome Dejo's daughter having to deal with cheating-accusations is what be believe is what's right.

 

In fact, the ratio 'solutions we are okay with' versus 'solutions we'd rather not have' is link 10/1 for HWBOT and 1/10 for (the entire team of) OCF apparently. Seriously, it's just one situation we're not comfortable with. Just one. Just one. Please select any of the other possibilities. Points, account, whatnotall ...

[ghost_recon88]

If this isn't a dictatorship way of running a website, I'm not sure what is. Just remember that it's the user base that keeps money in your pocket. I guess since it's a private site with no competition, everything goes Even though massman doesn't believe in polls, that would be the best way to see what the general public's view of this issue really is, instead of just assuming the BS that people would "be offended" or "upset".

[hokiealumnus]

With the ability to photograph hardware side-by-side if need be (perhaps he has done this as a best practice thing already) and/or supply invoices for the purchases, I can't see any legitimate reason for this decision. You've said a lot of words, but the community -not all of which is on OCF- seems to be pretty supportive of their plight.

 

In the face of concrete proof (which you haven't asked for...please, ask...he'll give it I'm certain), there is absolutely NO reason for you to disallow the combination of daughter + account + points + team. Of course she wants to be on his team, he's her father. 'Oh, I'm sorry, because you haven't cheated and you both were up front, you can't bench side-by-side with your dad...for the community's sake lest one of them some day accuse you of cheating.' That's illogical.

 

The only possible argument for your solution of not-this-combo is that he is giving her lots of coaching, telling her what to do. Should that invalidate my scores? I livestream when I go cold, and people help me by literally telling me what to do next when I get stuck. Heck, the other night I had five other people present physically, one on the phone and at least a dozen on livestream, all telling me what to do when I got stuck. Should that invalidate my scores because I got lots of coaching?

 

Who is this community of which you speak? They certainly haven't come in here voicing their opposition to the account combination the bot staff is so against.

 

I like you massman, you do a lot of good for our community, but this time I'm sorry to say IMHO you're just wrong; as is the staff that's in accordance with this decision. NO rules have been broken by your own admission, and there is no justification for disallowing the combination.

Edited February 10, 2011 by hokiealumnus

[Massman]

Despite it being funny (which it was, thank you )

If we were to seriously complain about it, then it would be a total double standard!

 

Like I said to Gautam: that's actually just Sandy Bridge. Because of the little flexibility of the platform (BCLK-wise as well as hard walls) I wouldn't be shocked if you could fine a 'link' between 75% of the scores out there.

 

In fact, you should try to find all those links and publish an article titled "Someone is selling scores again". And I'm convinced people would find the theory plausible.

[Brolloks]

 

Why is it so difficult to respect that it's possible other people might be suspicious (= bad feelings) about this account and just find a way for them not to be suspicious (= no bad feelings)?

 

I have yet to see anyone posting in this thread that they find the two accounst and their owners suspicious, I ask anyone who sits on that bench to please post here...or is the bench only occupied by one individual?

[ghost_recon88]

I have yet to see anyone posting in this thread that they find the two accounst and their owners suspicious, I ask anyone who sits on that bench to please post here...or is the bench only occupied by one individual?

 

It's only one individual, that's how dictatorship works....

[miahallen]

Like I said to Gautam: that's actually just Sandy Bridge. Because of the little flexibility of the platform (BCLK-wise as well as hard walls) I wouldn't be shocked if you could fine a 'link' between 75% of the scores out there.

 

THIS IS EXACTLY MY POINT!!!!!!!!

 

Whew...you finally got it! [thumbsup]

[Massman]

I have yet to see anyone posting in this thread that they find the two accounst and their owners suspicious, I ask anyone who sits on that bench to please post here...or is the bench only occupied by one individual?

 

A lot more accusations are aired anonymously than there are in public. I would have found it incredibly weird if now someone would raise their hand and say 'I'.

 

It's only one individual, that's how dictatorship works....

 

It's awesome how people think HWBOT's decisions are taken by me and me only. I should find a way to monetize that.

 

Well, 5 staff members posted their opinion in the thread. 4 of them said 'no way'. I had the pleasure of the first contact, then another moderator (one who felt even stronger about this than myself) did the second series of PMs.

 

//off to demand one of my slaves to give me a backrub.

[m0r7if3r]

Yes, you have a valid point. I fully agree that's the way it should be. As I mentioned earlier, when I first read that Dejo and his daughter were bonding over this hobby, I smiled ear to ear. I think it's awesome and absolutely wish more people would get have this with family and friends.

 

Sure seems like it to me...

 

Every day I have to face HWBOT/internet reality. Although I absolutely do not like myself asking for his daughter to not bench for points, something I think i've proven by given a dozen of alternative ways for Dejo and his daughter to bond over this hobby, I have to take into account that a large majority of the HWBOT community might not understand this particular situation. Not the daughter benching, but the team getting a boost in points by an account that can easily be perceived as 'double account to generate extra points'.

 

First off, how about facing ACTUAL reality first in that they can provide any sort of proof you might desire as they are FULLY legitimate in their venture. Second off, you are not ASKING, you are TELLING. You have not given any option but points or team OCF. Third off, this situation has been brought to light, we have a thread, verification can be posted in public for ANYONE to see...there's nothign under the table about this. Perception and reality are two completely separate things...and the REALITY of this situation is that there is nothing wrong with what is going on.

 

I would be crushed to find out Dejo's daughter would have to face the cheating accusations of people who are unaware of the situation at home. But, from years of HWBOT experience, I know there would be a tipping point when the daughter account would generate so much points people would start to complain in public. So, that's why we've suggested all the alternatives.

 

but you're perfectly fine with just banning her from earning points from her team...I can see how much her facing cheating accusations would "crush" you. How many points is so many? out of the 1000's of points OC Forums has, how much difference is that 300 making? I can tell you, it's not even 1 place on the leaderboards.

 

Actually, when Dejo ignored my PM and just created the account anyway, we closed our eyes for a while as the account was not really generating lots of points. When the first set of scores came in, we asked Dejo what's up, got a 'reasonable' explanation and, again, closed our eyes assuming this was just a one-time thing. Today, that account is generating 300+ points ... which is quite a lot.

 

see previous point. Also, I have a rather hard time believing that dejo would have ignored your wishes when HE came to YOU to clear it. I don't begin to see what is unreasonable about their situation now. If you're gonna start pulling scores for using the same boards, ram, and cpu's for 3d, you should take a look at icebob's 3x580 run that was done at the OCF benching party. That is Brollok's CPU, 1 of dejo's 580's, 1 of brollok's 580's, 1 of icebob's 580's...and I think icebob's board and ram. If that score flies, how do any of these not?

 

I might be out of line here, but I guess if the daughter's account would just have low-end hardware, none of which also in Dejo's account and reasonably low total score, it would've been under the radar for sure. Like I said, we closed eyes twice.

 

OH, so THIS is the point where you're out of line...insisting that low end hardware be used. So it's still either points or OCF.

 

We undertook several more attempts to solve this matter quietly and another moderator than myself tried to explain the situation and give some suggestions to solve the issue. Not to 'be corrupt', but just so his daughter could enjoy all the benching and other community members would not be upset about this 'weird' account generating a significant amount of points for the team. We don't accuse anyone (if we did, the account would've been banned), we don't try to punish anyone, all we want to forsee problems in (hwbot's) reality and address them before they occur.

 

what community members are upset here? What proof do they need? Is your purpose as the leader here not to serve the people of the bot? Has the community not shown (enough?) support for dejo's cause?

 

Exactly, what happened to them? Why is it not possible for Dejo to compromise? Why does it have to be AND account AND points AND the same team? Why is it 'only this way' or 'still only this way'?

 

Because she's his daughter...he's her father. THAT's why it has to be the same team, just because of that fact you are saying they cannot be on the same team? Where do you draw the line? Families? Households? Family+household? How do you justify your decision on that point? Quite honestly, you seem to lack ANY justification for your case and it has turned into a big issue of 'cause you say so...which is not sufficient reason for anything.

 

Why is it so difficult to respect that it's possible other people might be suspicious (= bad feelings) about this account and just find a way for them not to be suspicious (= no bad feelings)?

 

Honestly, I think they should be suspicious. I'm suspicious of EVERY submission that I look at...I look it over, check it out. If it clears, then I let it go, if not I take action. This clears. The only crime here is being open and honest about their intentions.

[Earthdog]

Let me say I do see what your decision accomplishes. I dont feel that justifys the decision though.

 

However the part Im most dissapointed in is the staff here backing down in the face of adversity (where is that adversity though?) to their beliefs and contrary to the evidence against the possible cheating that ?someone? thinks is happening. To me that doesnt show the strong leadership that has been shown here in the past that make this place what it is.

 

Good luck guys (OCF), keep fighting the good fight.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Earthdog

[Hardass]

With the ability to photograph hardware side-by-side if need be (perhaps he has done this as a best practice thing already) and/or supply invoices for the purchases, I can't see any legitimate reason for this decision. You've said a lot of words, but the community -not all of which is on OCF- seems to be pretty supportive of their plight.

 

In the face of concrete proof (which you haven't asked for...please, ask...he'll give it I'm certain), there is absolutely NO reason for you to disallow the combination of daughter + account + points + team. Of course she wants to be on his team, he's her father. 'Oh, I'm sorry, because you haven't cheated and you both were up front, you can't bench side-by-side with your dad...for the community's sake lest one of them some day accuse you of cheating.' That's illogical.

 

The only possible argument for your solution of not-this-combo is that he is giving her lots of coaching, telling her what to do. Should that invalidate my scores? I livestream when I go cold, and people help me by literally telling me what to do next when I get stuck. Heck, the other night I had five other people present physically, one on the phone and at least a dozen on livestream, all telling me what to do when I got stuck. Should that invalidate my scores because I got lots of coaching?

 

Who is this community of which you speak? They certainly haven't come in here voicing their opposition to the account combination the bot staff is so against.

 

I like you massman, you do a lot of good for our community, but this time I'm sorry to say IMHO you're just wrong; as is the staff that's in accordance with this decision. NO rules have been broken by your own admission, and there is no justification for disallowing the combination.

 

Agree totally.

[GoD_tattoo]

Like I said to Gautam: that's actually just Sandy Bridge. Because of the little flexibility of the platform (BCLK-wise as well as hard walls) I wouldn't be shocked if you could fine a 'link' between 75% of the scores out there.

 

In fact, you should try to find all those links and publish an article titled "Someone is selling scores again". And I'm convinced people would find the theory plausible.

 

I would think the same could be said about DICE scores on a 920do? Correct?

[Christian Ney]

just press F5 to have a new post

 

boring

[K404]

Without looking at the rankings, which of these two scores is done by 'Dejo's daughter' ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

To be totally honest, if I saw those results, i'd also wonder about hardware sharing. I've suspected it for less-similar screenshots...

[GoD_tattoo]

To be totally honest, if I saw those results, i'd also wonder about hardware sharing. I've suspected it for less-similar screenshots...

 

How about the ones in post #60 then? Same situation...

[K404]

Massman and Thomas? Less obvious. Different colour scheme, different window layout, different RAM. You don't think you're looking at the same picture twice.

Edited February 10, 2011 by K404

[HousERaT]

Yes, you have a valid point. I fully agree that's the way it should be. As I mentioned earlier, when I first read that Dejo and his daughter were bonding over this hobby, I smiled ear to ear. I think it's awesome and absolutely wish more people would get have this with family and friends.

 

BUT!

 

Every day I have to face HWBOT/internet reality. Although I absolutely do not like myself asking for his daughter to not bench for points, something I think i've proven by given a dozen of alternative ways for Dejo and his daughter to bond over this hobby, I have to take into account that a large majority of the HWBOT community might not understand this particular situation. Not the daughter benching, but the team getting a boost in points by an account that can easily be perceived as 'double account to generate extra points'.

 

I would be crushed to find out Dejo's daughter would have to face the cheating accusations of people who are unaware of the situation at home. But, from years of HWBOT experience, I know there would be a tipping point when the daughter account would generate so much points people would start to complain in public. So, that's why we've suggested all the alternatives.

 

Actually, when Dejo ignored my PM and just created the account anyway, we closed our eyes for a while as the account was not really generating lots of points. When the first set of scores came in, we asked Dejo what's up, got a 'reasonable' explanation and, again, closed our eyes assuming this was just a one-time thing. Today, that account is generating 300+ points ... which is quite a lot.

 

I might be out of line here, but I guess if the daughter's account would just have low-end hardware, none of which also in Dejo's account and reasonably low total score, it would've been under the radar for sure. Like I said, we closed eyes twice.

 

We undertook several more attempts to solve this matter quietly and another moderator than myself tried to explain the situation and give some suggestions to solve the issue. Not to 'be corrupt', but just so his daughter could enjoy all the benching and other community members would not be upset about this 'weird' account generating a significant amount of points for the team. We don't accuse anyone (if we did, the account would've been banned), we don't try to punish anyone, all we want to forsee problems in (hwbot's) reality and address them before they occur.

Clearly some of the most convoluted doubletalk I've seen in a minute. You'll close your eyes if the point total is small? Your idea of justice and fairness is that whimsical?

 

No rule was broken that you've been willing to site during this long drawn out conversation. Since no rule was broken are you going to write a new rule which addresses your concerns?

[m0r7if3r]

Clearly some of the most convoluted doubletalk I've seen in a minute. You'll close your eyes if the point total is small? Your idea of justice and fairness is that whimsical?

 

No rule was broken that you've been willing to site during this long drawn out conversation. Since no rule was broken are you going to write a new rule which addresses your concerns?

 

This would be a good solution. If you don't want it happening, write a rule stating SPECIFICALLY, how distant a community member must be from another community member for them to both have boints. You're denying scores on the vague notion of suspiciousness.

[Bobnova]

So if I understand correctly here, dejo and his daughter cannot both make points for the team with the same class of hardware because people might find it suspicious and raise a stink about it, and the HWBot staff (rightly, imo) likes to avoid stinks if possible. Is that correct?

 

If it is, I can understand that. I do not like it, far from it, but I can understand it at least.

 

Given that, my question is, what about the even more suspicious looking i7 950 top20 pages?

My favorite is WP1024(spi32m is good too though), here's a little screenshot for you:

 

To me, at least, that looks just a touch more suspicious then dejo/daughter, and I may well make a stink about it.

Does the fact that I may make a stink about it mean that three of those four need to combine their accounts/bench for different teams/bench for no points?

 

 

I can't help but feel that dejo/daughter are being singled out here. If the "might look suspicious" ruling is going to be applied everywhere, I'll shut up and go away.

If it's only going to be applied to dejo/daughter, that's a different story (not, of course, that I have any power, at all, anywhere. Oh well).

So please, tell me why is dejo/daughter's possibility of looking suspicious is worse then the 950 ranks looking (no "possibly" here) suspicious?

[Massman]

I know that we are on the grey line. But I feel that what we do is no different than others having a group session, using other members cpu's for 3d runs and posting. I have seen videos of this going on, and no such requesting for thier accounts to be closed. Sure we are in the same household, sure she has used my cpu's for 3d runs. If this is indeed illegal or immoral, let me know via pm and reasoning, or at least make some kind of documentation that it shouldnt go on and we will remove one of the accounts.

 

This is what you wrote earlier. One of the first set of posts in this thread.

 

Massman, your response to this makes sense to me. I wish that this would have been stated in PM, as that would have killed alot of hard feelings and effort on my part trying to make it seen that we werent cheating. I just felt like we were outright being accused of cheating, which is not the case. She does have her own hardware, she also does her own benching. I do give her some coaching, but know that many get that.

 

If it takes me combining our accounts to make the staff here happy, I will do that. But before I do I would like you and IMOG to confer and make sure that this is the action that needs to be taken.

 

I understood from this post that I (or any other HWBOT moderator) had not been clear enough about our motivation and argumentation. I actually felt sorry, because the last thing I wanted to do was to accuse you of cheating. After this post, however, I figured we were both convinced that it would be in the community's best interest to prevent accusations coming up.

 

I also talked about this with IMOG in PM and after reading his reply, I was convinced we were all on the same page:

 

-snip-

 

If you don't see a better way of sorting out the legitimate benchers with family members from the cheats who try to scam the system, I understand that also. Its a tough nut and I don't have a suggestion for doing it better - we could provide proof of purchase, pictures, and so forth... But if we set that precedent, a cheat who is dedicated enough to cheating could probably fabricate things to make themselves look just as legitimate. I don't know. There's not a good way to know who is behind the keyboard... Especially when IPs match and such. So I think I understand the problem you are getting at.

 

-snip

 

So, I'm pretty amazed that this thread took a wild spin like this.

 

In all honesty, I am really sad that this eventually become such a big topic. I'm sincerely sorry about this. This particular situation is an issue because of the limitations of the current HWBOT system (combined with the of the internet), so pretty much self-inflicted. I really wish there was a way to have both accounts contribute to the same team without having other users complain about it, but with this revision it's not possible.

[Christian Ney]

So if I understand correctly here, dejo and his daughter cannot both make points for the team with the same class of hardware because people might find it suspicious and raise a stink about it, and the HWBot staff (rightly, imo) likes to avoid stinks if possible. Is that correct?

 

If it is, I can understand that. I do not like it, far from it, but I can understand it at least.

 

Given that, my question is, what about the even more suspicious looking i7 950 top20 pages?

My favorite is WP1024(spi32m is good too though), here's a little screenshot for you:

 

To me, at least, that looks just a touch more suspicious then dejo/daughter, and I may well make a stink about it.

Does the fact that I may make a stink about it mean that three of those four need to combine their accounts/bench for different teams/bench for no points?

 

 

I can't help but feel that dejo/daughter are being singled out here. If the "might look suspicious" ruling is going to be applied everywhere, I'll shut up and go away.

If it's only going to be applied to dejo/daughter, that's a different story (not, of course, that I have any power, at all, anywhere. Oh well).

So please, tell me why is dejo/daughter's possibility of looking suspicious is worse then the 950 ranks looking (no "possibly" here) suspicious?

 

 

It's even more suspicious that massman(ranked #6) is just after these scores

:D:D