TaiwanAndre Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) wtf...MFT is software, too. Look at this link. http://downloads.managedflash.com/documentation/090107_windowsinstall.pdf See chispy's HDD - General Usage score 19xx. It's using MFT software. Why does hwbot accept SSD+MFT score? OK, I will use 4*Acard+MFT break 40K+. You cannot remove my score because you already accept chispy's score. Edited January 26, 2009 by TaiwanAndre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chispy Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Here we go again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeguava Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 He used Software Based Ramdisk , I used 4x 30GB OCZ Core Series V2 SSds in Raid0 on Adaptec Raid 2405 Raid Controller card How can you tell what I used?? MFT + IRAM gives ya about 3.5k XP startup - without fully tweaking. I am confident I would easily break 4k if I wanted. Sorry CHispy - tweaks like that have been around for a long time - you and EVA are not the first to find it. Problem is you are not measuring the HDD speed with an array configured the way you have but memory speed. Things were fine before this thread started... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeguava Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) wtf...MFT is software, too. Look at this link. http://downloads.managedflash.com/documentation/090107_windowsinstall.pdf See chispy's HDD - General Usage score 19xx. It's using MFT software. Why does hwbot accept SSD+MFT score? OK, I will use 4*Acard+MFT break 40K+. You cannot remove my score because you already accept chispy's score. 40K sounds low??? check out the dude that had 26000mb/s in Virus check - maybe 50k??? Edited January 26, 2009 by mikeguava Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hipro5 Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I think that the 225 XP Start up was well done by FM........Now look at you!..... We now all can get a high score with SSDs or with software ram....Who could tell/find the difference?.. That's all BULLS...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) I did wonder if high-end SSD and software RAMdisk would begin to look too similar for anyone to tell.... If we cant find a solution and things get bad....could always pull the points from PCM05. Technically no-one should mind- we do all this for good benching anyway, right? The questionable scores could be removed without so much complaining if an HWB mod got it wrong for any reason LOL....any "system" bench where an E2140 or E2160 can sit very easily in the top 200 is just broken. Cant blame anyone really- things have changed too much since it was launched. Edited January 26, 2009 by K404 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeguava Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) I think that the 225 XP Start up was well done by FM........Now look at you!..... We now all can get a high score with SSDs or with software ram....Who could tell/find the difference?.. That's all BULLS...... i second that - but I am pretty sure that there is no difference between software and MFT because I suspect that all that MFT does is to create a software ram to temporarly store the data and later dump the data to the drives. MFT works on any drives - not just SSDs I am all for finding ways to speed up drives - I have been enjoying the game of fast arrays for a long time - but it is sad what has happened to my favorite game. Edited January 26, 2009 by mikeguava Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF3D Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I have made suggestion in HWbot crew section, that we remove points from PCmark05. There is no idea to keep this kind of benchmark in our database anymore (This is only my opinion at this point) It was designed to be run with HDD's only (Hard disk drives), not with I-ram or Acard, not with software ramdisk and not with superfast SSD's we have nowadays. Futuremark should have made permanent limit with HDD speed, cause those insane XP startup speeds or HDD tests in general are not telling anything anymore. You guys have made nice examples in this thread, so thank you for that. I think situation would be the same, if we would have some new device, which would boost for example 3DM06 CPU score to 20K. Benchmark would be the same, but the basic idea would be totally gone. It is quite same thing with PhysX and vantage CPU test 2.. It should be CPU test, but it can be done by software better.. so the idea of that test is gone and results not comparable. I hope you see my point right way I'm happy to hear your thoughts about this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 So then it seems that Mike's score was removed because you guys thought it's on a software ram disk. It doesn't seem like he said that anywhere explicitly. In fact...it seems like the "g@y" HDD tweak he's referring to is the usage of MFT. Check his verification link "MFT+SOFTWARE RAM" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Mike, could you explain what MFT exactly does? Is it similar to the effects of a software based ramdisk? What is the difference between a normal SSD Raid0 system and one with MFT added? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71proste Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I have made suggestion in HWbot crew section, that we remove points from PCmark05. There is no idea to keep this kind of benchmark in our database anymore (This is only my opinion at this point) It was designed to be run with HDD's only (Hard disk drives), not with I-ram or Acard, not with software ramdisk and not with superfast SSD's we have nowadays. Futuremark should have made permanent limit with HDD speed, cause those insane XP startup speeds or HDD tests in general are not telling anything anymore. You guys have made nice examples in this thread, so thank you for that. I think situation would be the same, if we would have some new device, which would boost for example 3DM06 CPU score to 20K. Benchmark would be the same, but the basic idea would be totally gone. It is quite same thing. Yeahhh man :ws: you're totally right and I confirm that more people think like that it's just unfair Scores made using SSD's or ramdisk's should be removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 MFT caches software writes operations and send them sequentially to the hardware; it's the software required for the bargain SSD out there to work optimally; in short: it's a ram-like drive indeed http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47183 So a software ram-drive? If so, MFT should not be allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1ch Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 SF3D, proste, and all those in favour of banning PCM05, think about it this way. Some people (including me) kicked up a fuss when the 9800GX2 and other dual-gpu, single slot graphics cards came out because those who'd worked hard with LN2 on a 1GPU card (8800 Ultra etc.) were suddenly being beaten by stock 9800GX2 for global points. It's not exactly the same, but the reasoning behind your argument is the same.. i.e Simply buy a piece of hardware that immediately boosts scores because it's better. I-RAM's have been allowed, ACARD's drive, and SSD's are just a newer technology of that. If you don't like to spend money on HDD tech, just don't bench PCM05. Just because you don't want to, doesn't mean there shouldn't be points. For those that do, let them have their expertise in tweaking it recognised. That's my opinion PS. I do think we need to have a way of ruling out software based ramdrives though, but sadly I can't help with how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooter.jay Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 As long as when points are removed from pcmark05 they are then allocated to pcmark vantage i am ok with that. Did this happen the same way with pcmark04? I like benching pcmark and would be happy to move to vantage if this is the easy fix? Scooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaiwanAndre Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 so MFT is allowed at hwbot?? If yes, 40K or 50K will be broke soon I promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 so MFT is allowed at hwbot?? If yes, 40K or 50K will be broke soon I promise. Hold on Andre, we're looking into it at the moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chispy Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 MFT its not the same as a software Ram drive or steadystate tweak , you guys have to fully understand the whole technology behind the tweak , it assist with writes and reads the SSds , it Runs on the SSds array and NOT in RAM like Software Based RamDisk that runs in Ram ,its a whole different thing. New Tech new hardware new support software for the new technology , people think that we would be running on i-Rams forever , but times have change and a whole new technlogy has replaced the i-Rams ,please understand it. to me i-Rams are already obsolete technology and are looking more and more like dinosours. Also people running crazy 3-4 i-Rams arrays Using another motherboard to assist the primary mobo so that it PCMark05 runs out of all the Ram on the i-Rams ??? Whats the difference of that and MFT ??? This is not fair i work very hard to get that score , loong nights and countless OS installations until i got it right. Again MFT RUNS on the SSds array and NOTon the Ram. Do a research and Google many days like i did , Understand the technology behind the SSds and MFT and maybe you guys will fully understand this new tech. I have Done NOTHING Wrong as I have complied with all the Rules , FM Rules as well as hwbot rules for PCMark05 - hwbot PCMark05 Rules '' Forbidden Hardware: software ramdisk (iRam is allowed) '' Any online PCMark05 submission must comply to the following rules: use default PCMark settings have a valid screenshot (see example below): clearly show PCmark score, PCmark settings, processor in CPU-Z, unless you have a valid futuremark ORB url have a valid futuremark orb link as verification for scores in the top 20 I would like to help on this subject and to clear any confusions my run might cause , we need to find an anwser for this because new hardware and new technology will be upon us soon. Good Day all. chispy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKarmakazi Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I second the notion that if 05 is removed I think vantage should get points. I really enjoy the pcmark benching. Its not as popular, but there is alot of tweaking involved. Vantage has an advantage also being that the drive you install the OS to is heavily weighted in the score (even if you set a different target drive). So that rules out software based ram drives altogether. I think now that 3dmark vantage has been approved for points there should be no arguing about pcmark vantage. I.E. the Vista only argument, having to purchase it, etc. The argument that it takes too long to complete is also moot, since people didn't complain when 32M was taking 10+ minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chispy Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 SF3D, proste, and all those in favour of banning PCM05, think about it this way. Some people (including me) kicked up a fuss when the 9800GX2 and other dual-gpu, single slot graphics cards came out because those who'd worked hard with LN2 on a 1GPU card (8800 Ultra etc.) were suddenly being beaten by stock 9800GX2 for global points. It's not exactly the same, but the reasoning behind your argument is the same.. i.e Simply buy a piece of hardware that immediately boosts scores because it's better. I-RAM's have been allowed, ACARD's drive, and SSD's are just a newer technology of that. If you don't like to spend money on HDD tech, just don't bench PCM05. Just because you don't want to, doesn't mean there shouldn't be points. For those that do, let them have their expertise in tweaking it recognised. That's my opinion PS. I do think we need to have a way of ruling out software based ramdrives though, but sadly I can't help with how. Exactly the same way i think and many many other people with new tech think , there always will be something new that will beat currently tech. I spent a lot of money on this new tech so that i can propperly have a decent score so i tottaly agree with you , second that and i am 100% sure many many guys like me think the same way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1ch Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I have made suggestion in HWbot crew section, that we remove points from PCmark05. There is no idea to keep this kind of benchmark in our database anymore (This is only my opinion at this point) It was designed to be run with HDD's only (Hard disk drives), not with I-ram or Acard, not with software ramdisk and not with superfast SSD's we have nowadays. Based on this theory only, would you like to remove points from 3DMark01 from the 3d tests because it was not designed to be run on GTX 295's? Or 8800GTX's? Or 7900GT's? Where do you draw the line? The whole aim for PCM is OS speed. If you have Vista installed on a RAIDed SSD's or an ACARD ramdrive, even if only with a low end Core 2 chip, it'll still be faster than a i7 965. That's perfectly fine, because it should be. Stick to Superpi/wprime/pifast for CPU benching, 3dmark for GPU and PCM for HDD benching. Some people prefer to bench only CPU, some GPU, some HDD. Let them. What about something incredibly simple like requiring a screenshot showing a specific HDD benching program to verify the drive/drives used like HDTach or HDTune or something? I know it's simple, but is that enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praz Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 The use of MFT is a hard one to call. Unlike most ramdisk usage MFT is a valid 24/7 app. It's main purpose is for servers and EasyCo does quite well in that market segment with a long list of customers. Which is also why desktop development is slow. They are concentrating on where the money is. The negative side is MFT does artificially inflate benchmark scores. A single MFT enabled SSD will post a 6000 MB/sec score in HD Tune which we all know is not possible. How this translates to programs such as PCMark I don't think is known at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chispy Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Guys do your research, dont talk about MFT without fully knowing how MFT assist SSds and works '' IN SHORT ITS NOT SOFTWARE BASED RAMDISK '' Do not distortion and make it look the way you want it when you post ,digg deep into it on your research and understand. People are trying to make it look as it were a Software Based RamDisk , the fact it is NOT. chispy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K404 Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I thought the problem with PCM05 and SSD is that its now harder to tell if someone is using a software RAMdisk or not, because of the similarities in scores? More current hardware isnt the problem, although the score skew (IMHO) is.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massman Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 MFT its not the same as a software Ram drive or steadystate tweak , you guys have to fully understand the whole technology behind the tweak , it assist with writes and reads the SSds , it Runs on the SSds array and NOT in RAM like Software Based RamDisk that runs in Ram ,its a whole different thing. New Tech new hardware new support software for the new technology , people think that we would be running on i-Rams forever , but times have change and a whole new technlogy has replaced the i-Rams ,please understand it. to me i-Rams are already obsolete technology and are looking more and more like dinosours. Also people running crazy 3-4 i-Rams arrays Using another motherboard to assist the primary mobo so that it PCMark05 runs out of all the Ram on the i-Rams ??? Whats the difference of that and MFT ??? This is not fair i work very hard to get that score , loong nights and countless OS installations until i got it right. Again MFT RUNS on the SSds array and NOTon the Ram. Do a research and Google many days like i did , Understand the technology behind the SSds and MFT and maybe you guys will fully understand this new tech. Can you link me up with information regarding the MFT technology so that I can understand what it does exactly? It's not a software ramdisk as we (used to) know it, but the artificial increase (as Praz mentioned) does raise questions. As mentioned by SF3D: PhysX also gives an artificial increase and also is 24/7 software, but both FM and HWbot don't allow PhysX scores to be submitted. Maybe time for us to ask FM's policy regarding this technology, again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chispy Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Can you link me up with information regarding the MFT technology so that I can understand what it does exactly? It's not a software ramdisk as we (used to) know it, but the artificial increase (as Praz mentioned) does raise questions. As mentioned by SF3D: PhysX also gives an artificial increase and also is 24/7 software, but both FM and HWbot don't allow PhysX scores to be submitted. Maybe time for us to ask FM's policy regarding this technology, again? Sure Massman , http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47301 https://ts1.easyco.net/buy.easyco.com/mft/mft-downloads.htm http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47212 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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