miahallen Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 I think a more appropriate poll would be whether or not to create two leagues...ametures & pros (sponsored or not). Or to leave it how it is. k|ngp|n originally came up with the idea of forgoing the points ranking for those sponsored, but then changed his mind (I guess :shrug:). The idea was for him and others with connections to have a platform to show thier stuff, whithout activly competing for rank. This was implemented via the "Do NOT participate in hwbot rankings" option. This idea was slightly flawed because many of the "pro" guys are still in it for the competition....not just the show. So now if they want to compete, they're forced to compete against "ametures". IMHO - Having multiple classes gives everyone a more (not perfect) level playing field, and like all other professional sports, it is the way forward. I know, I know....."how would you enforce it?".....will be the next question. Obviously it would require the honor system. This is why the "Do NOT participate in hwbot rankings" option is currently optional....becasue enforcing it would be impossible. But like I said before....if you gave the pro league an option to continue actively competing, I think that would be enough incentive for them to honor new class rules. Quote
Massman Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 I think this step is inevitable and much needed. First design plans have been made already (oldest document on hwbot is from Jan '10), but it has proven to be a gigantic problem as many people have to agree - the pros - the non-pros - the manufacturers - the hwbot coder Just to give you an example: it's a common wish to not have the sponsored guys affect the normal guys in the rankings. Now, if the pros are moved to a seperate category, the HWBOINTS algorithm is no longer applicable in the PRO league (as it's design for 1000+ submissions). In addition, moving to the pro category will also mean that you lose all the points you have in the normal category, which will heavily affect your team's total. Another grave problem is how to define pro (is getting one free motherboard equal to being pro?) and how to enforce this (how can we know you have a free board?). Quote
miahallen Posted June 7, 2010 Author Posted June 7, 2010 Yup, all tough questions/problems. Hopefully we can work through the issues and come to a point where this will move things forward Quote
euklidis Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 I think a more appropriate poll would be whether or not to create two leagues...ametures & pros (sponsored or not). Or to leave it how it is. k|ngp|n originally came up with the idea of forgoing the points ranking for those sponsored, but then changed his mind (I guess :shrug:). The idea was for him and others with connections to have a platform to show thier stuff, whithout activly competing for rank. This was implemented via the "Do NOT participate in hwbot rankings" option. This idea was slightly flawed because many of the "pro" guys are still in it for the competition....not just the show. So now if they want to compete, they're forced to compete against "ametures". IMHO - Having multiple classes gives everyone a more (not perfect) level playing field, and like all other professional sports, it is the way forward. I know, I know....."how would you enforce it?".....will be the next question. Obviously it would require the honor system. This is why the "Do NOT participate in hwbot rankings" option is currently optional....becasue enforcing it would be impossible. But like I said before....if you gave the pro league an option to continue actively competing, I think that would be enough incentive for them to honor new class rules. what is better if you are a pro... be the best among amatures or be the first among pros? pros can compete with each other and amateurs can compete together. If amateurs get really good they will propably find sponsors to go to the pro league... as it is in every other proffesional leagues system... Quote
euklidis Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 I think this step is inevitable and much needed. First design plans have been made already (oldest document on hwbot is from Jan '10), but it has proven to be a gigantic problem as many people have to agree - the pros - the non-pros - the manufacturers - the hwbot coder Just to give you an example: it's a common wish to not have the sponsored guys affect the normal guys in the rankings. Now, if the pros are moved to a seperate category, the HWBOINTS algorithm is no longer applicable in the PRO league (as it's design for 1000+ submissions). In addition, moving to the pro category will also mean that you lose all the points you have in the normal category, which will heavily affect your team's total. Another grave problem is how to define pro (is getting one free motherboard equal to being pro?) and how to enforce this (how can we know you have a free board?). Companies already sponsor overclockers here... Wanna go to the pro league? You have to go with sponsors. I believe companies would like that too. They already pay for most of the hw. It is like F1. compete with the best hw, becomes huge advertisments that costs them nothing but HW which is not a great loss for them. So companies will give hw for competing at the pro league which is better advertisment than the amatures league... I believe this idea is really promising... Quote
Thor941 Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 voted for the split, but hard to say who will go in the Pro league - I mean you can get sometimes from a manufacturer a free MB to test it, is it making you Pro ... !? Quote
euklidis Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 voted for the split, but hard to say who will go in the Pro league - I mean you can get sometimes from a manufacturer a free MB to test it, is it making you Pro ... !? Dude pros will have to say who are their sponsors... First we have to talk with the companies... Quote
SF3D Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 I quote myself from the thread I made in to crew section year a go. This is from July 2009. Hi crew! I want to show you my idea about new Oc league. It would be called No limits OC league or something like that. Time is flying and situations are changing. I think we are getting to the point where ES CPU's must be removed from normal OC league and make the game more fair that way. If user want to submit ES scores, they should be in NO Limits OC race, where all possible scores and all possible hardware would be visible, but not with any points. That way people dont have to get upset by other peoples scores, cause it is not the "race" like it is now and no one is loosing anything. It would be more like WR page, but with a lot more scores in it. Which scores should go in to that category? -All ES cpu scores. -scores which have been done with unreleased hardware or some modified hardware, which can not be used publicly. (Like current 3Dmark Vantage WR in FM orb) -etc.? I would personally prefer this new league. I would go there immediately, bench like before and no one is pissed anymore. I could use my hardware like so far, but without bad air around them. Easy solution, but is it easy with coding? That is the different story. I have talked about this category with many top overclockers from all around the world and we have the green light from all of them. No one have said no so far. What do you guys think? Of course this idea have evolved already and we have some better ideas about the points and name etc. Hopefully this will show you guys that we have though these issues long time before these current threads here. Quote
BenchZowner Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Massman you don't know who the sponsored people are ? Are you kidding us man ? Considering that sponsored for overclocking differs from getting 1 review sample every now and then, it's quite easy... Let's see if I can guess some... HiCookie Andre Yang Nickshih SF3D K|ngp|n elmor hipro5 kinc hiwa stummerwinter youngpro Deanzo Vivi ( at least until a few months ago ) Quote
miahallen Posted June 7, 2010 Author Posted June 7, 2010 Of course this idea have evolved already and we have some better ideas about the points and name etc. Hopefully this will show you guys that we have though these issues long time before these current threads here. I know I am not the first one with this idea, I'm not claiming originality....but I think the poll is much more appropriate than Bill's, and I though the timing was right for posing it formally. :up: @ BZ, FYI....I don't think Deanzo is sponsored but you can add my name to your list Quote
Thor941 Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 I know I am not the first one with this idea, I'm not claiming originality....but I think the poll is much more appropriate than Bill's, and I though the timing was right for posing it formally. :up: @ BZ, FYI....I don't think Deanzo is sponsored but you can add my name to your list just need to have a look at your signature Quote
miahallen Posted June 7, 2010 Author Posted June 7, 2010 just need to have a look at your signature I re-created my sig after recieving some critacism recently. I think open disclosure is the right thing. Quote
Massman Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Massman you don't know who the sponsored people are ?Are you kidding us man ? Is Gendo pro? Quote
BenchZowner Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Sure he is, he wears techno trendy t-shirts. Unless there's a game called "We pretend to be stupid" and we're part of that, you know and get what I meant. We know who the big sponsored guys are. The rest sponsored guys will have to come out clean themselves, nobody said "force X into pro". Once again, all I see the last few months is "claims of willingness" and hesitation(?) to take any actions, even if it's just a tiny thing ( let's say adding a CPU batch text field ). Quote
knopflerbruce Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Let's not discuss specific names before anything is decided;) Also, it doesn't help if you are sponsored NOW, but for some reason not when/if the pro league starts. About the team boints... you can always have some sort of "lack of boints compensation" so the team total doesn't go down. Quote
BenchZowner Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Or just f* the team rankings since most of the people are selfish... good people Quote
K404 Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 (edited) Does it matter if we clear the Pro league with companies? I might be massively naive here, but dont they send the big-names gear because they know it'll get great results in their hands and people will pay attention to the result, regardless of the HWB side of things? Scores will still be on here, just a different database Some simple stuff for starters... Given CPU? 2D results go into Pro League Free/sponsored GPU: 3D results go into Pro league. Other guidelines should be added in too, of course. All results from live events go into Pro League? What about smaller bench bits? I get RAM on a fairly regular basis and the occasional mid-range board. I dont think thats worth sticking me in with Vince If done right, i'm well up for a split Edited June 7, 2010 by K404 Quote
Massman Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Just a heads up. From this point I'm ignoring everyone who has no intention of trying to find a solution to existing issues. Miahallen showed how to do it, BenchZowner doesn't. Euklidis: you're also close to getting ignored. Make your posts using decent arguments and word choice and you'll be heared. Use 'dude' and refuse to listen why solutions don't work and you get ignored. Quote
BenchZowner Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Massman is right here folks, let's wait for the big brains to come up with the perfect solution. Quote
euklidis Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Just a heads up. From this point I'm ignoring everyone who has no intention of trying to find a solution to existing issues. Miahallen showed how to do it, BenchZowner doesn't. Euklidis: you're also close to getting ignored. Make your posts using decent arguments and word choice and you'll be heared. Use 'dude' and refuse to listen why solutions don't work and you get ignored. what? dude is a bad word? if it is i am sorry but i do not think it is it means friend which is good in a community... unless you want us to write in full formal style... Quote
Earthdog Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 (edited) In regards to the algo's and seperation, why not just create a new one to seperate and leave what you have as is. Meaning just a have score board for the pros extracting their scores and placing it to 'their score board'. I dont know how these work, but figured I would toss it out there in case it could help. Also, couldnt an exclude variable be created to eliminate those pros out of the non sponsered score board? GL guys. Edited June 7, 2010 by Jas420221 Quote
SF3D Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 I just wrote my latest idea to the crew section. We will see, if there is any chance to see it alive some day. We need to modify it a lot at least. There might be technical and economical issues on this. Quote
der8auer Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Ah crap chose the wrong one Clicked on "No, I like HWBot rankings the way they are." but my vote goes to "Yes, HWBot should have Ameture and Pro leagues. (sponsored & non-sponsored)". Sorry Is there a way to add my vote to the right one? Can just agree on SF3Ds Posting Quote
Gautam Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 I agree with this...but I predict that there will be a lot of argument over who/what does or doesn't belong in the "pro" class. Quote
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