HousERaT Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 This would be a good solution. If you don't want it happening, write a rule stating SPECIFICALLY, how distant a community member must be from another community member for them to both have boints. You're denying scores on the vague notion of suspiciousness. Perhaps if he considers such he'll come to see what we see...... this whole argument is shortsighted at best. Talk about Pandora's box. College roommates? What about sold equipment? All this talk about same address is without merit and Massman is trying to shield his so-called good intentions with this "good of the community" mess. Basically what he's saying is if you live in the same house with someone who benches and scores on HWBOT for the same team....... DON'T TELL ANYONE. That's just whack.
miahallen Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 Massman and Thomas? Less obvious. Different colour scheme, different window layout, different RAM. You don't think you're looking at the same picture twice. "Massman and pt1t's submissions don't look like obvious HW sharing, they must not be using the same CPU"....is that what you're saying K404? This only supports my previous comment: This is what I hear for you: 1) If you would like to create a fake account to boost your team points, please do not make it obvious. 2) You you'd like to make two legitimate accounts like dejo & his daugher, you cannot, because we're worried about #1 -- HWBOT
Christian Ney Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 So, I'm pretty amazed that this thread took a wild spin like this. In all honesty, I am really sad that this eventually become such a big topic. I'm sincerely sorry about this. This particular situation is an issue because of the limitations of the current HWBOT system (combined with the of the internet), so pretty much self-inflicted. I really wish there was a way to have both accounts contribute to the same team without having other users complain about it, but with this revision it's not possible.
Massman Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 Clearly some of the most convoluted doubletalk I've seen in a minute. You'll close your eyes if the point total is small? Your idea of justice and fairness is that whimsical? Yes. For the same reason I look away when my young nephew takes two cookies instead of the one his mother allowed.
CgS Drone Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 I guess my question will have to be addressed before I can submit scores and could save me some money as well. I intend to purchase some new hardware in the near future and start benching with it, here is my problem. There are other members on my team that run the exact same hardware (funny I would search to find which hardware will give the best point and want to use that) but since my hardware will be the exact same does this mean my points will be called into question and have them taken? Do I need to get permission on what hardware I am allowed to have so it wont be the exact same as other member of my team? You know since this would look suspicious and all. I know that even with my being willing to prove that I bought the hardware and willing to stream and prove that its mine obviously means nothing since that has been brought up and still isn't being accepted.
ghost_recon88 Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 So if I understand correctly here, dejo and his daughter cannot both make points for the team with the same class of hardware because people might find it suspicious and raise a stink about it, and the HWBot staff (rightly, imo) likes to avoid stinks if possible. Is that correct? If it is, I can understand that. I do not like it, far from it, but I can understand it at least. Given that, my question is, what about the even more suspicious looking i7 950 top20 pages? My favorite is WP1024(spi32m is good too though), here's a little screenshot for you: To me, at least, that looks just a touch more suspicious then dejo/daughter, and I may well make a stink about it. Does the fact that I may make a stink about it mean that three of those four need to combine their accounts/bench for different teams/bench for no points? I can't help but feel that dejo/daughter are being singled out here. If the "might look suspicious" ruling is going to be applied everywhere, I'll shut up and go away. If it's only going to be applied to dejo/daughter, that's a different story (not, of course, that I have any power, at all, anywhere. Oh well). So please, tell me why is dejo/daughter's possibility of looking suspicious is worse then the 950 ranks looking (no "possibly" here) suspicious? And this isn't the whole case where I've seen results like this.
Massman Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 So if I understand correctly here, dejo and his daughter cannot both make points for the team with the same class of hardware because people might find it suspicious and raise a stink about it, and the HWBot staff (rightly, imo) likes to avoid stinks if possible. Is that correct Yes. Wouldn't you like everyone to be more like Dejo and his daughter? Sacrificing a bit of their own happiness so others won't have to complain about what they do . It's really nice to see that people are willing to put aside their own wishes and compromise just a tiny bit so others can be (just a tiny bit) happier, even if all others are not doing it.
Maxi Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 I was staying out of this but I am a mod here, it's my job. OK, there are reasons to be concerned about the submissions and result sharing (not hardware sharing) namely the screens shots with items placed in basically the exact same positions. If you have two different people behind the keyboard, the chances of that happening are remote. There are several examples of this between the two accounts. It's true there is no rule preventing family members from creating accounts, friends & teams bench together sharing ideas and knowledge all the time ── hwbot is not against any of that, duh. But when you have results that look to be done on the same system by the same person (as the item placement pretty much confirms) there is a problem. It has been suggested that these two accounts be merged, I for one do not agree with that. Results in questions should be moderated and that is all. It could be argued that one of the accounts be banned for violating our result sharing rules, but hwbot chose to ask for an account merger instead.
miahallen Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 Yes. If that's the case, I'd like to cause a stink about post #60
Massman Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 If that's the case, I'd like to cause a stink about post #60 You are already in the right subforum. Quick, make a thread about it before someone else does!
miahallen Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 Roughly how many of the submissions would be moderated Mark?
miahallen Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 You are already in the right subforum. Quick, make a thread about it before someone else does! LOL
Mr.Scott Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 And this isn't the whole case where I've seen results like this. And nothing has been about this for the same reason, lack of proof positive. Yet the law is being laid down on the father/daughter for "potentially suspicious" activity. Ironic huh.
HousERaT Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) Yes. For the same reason I look away when my young nephew takes two cookies instead of the one his mother allowed. So again, what's your standard? What criteria did you use to judge? It looks whimsical. Edited February 10, 2011 by HousERaT
ghost_recon88 Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 And nothing has been about this for the same reason, lack of proof positive. Yet the law is being laid down on the father/daughter for "potentially suspicious" activity. Ironic huh. Innocent until proven guilty is what most people think . Apparently here it's guilty until proven innocent.
xXSebaSXx Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) I guess my question will have to be addressed before I can submit scores and could save me some money as well. I intend to purchase some new hardware in the near future and start benching with it, here is my problem. There are other members on my team that run the exact same hardware (funny I would search to find which hardware will give the best point and want to use that) but since my hardware will be the exact same does this mean my points will be called into question and have them taken? Do I need to get permission on what hardware I am allowed to have so it wont be the exact same as other member of my team? You know since this would look suspicious and all. I know that even with my being willing to prove that I bought the hardware and willing to stream and prove that its mine obviously means nothing since that has been brought up and still isn't being accepted. I just bought a 790FX board so I can have the same setup that a team member has been using... Why? Because I want to do an internal challenge with said team mate to see which of the chips yields the best results... So does that mean that because we'll both have same board, cpu, ram; only one of us gets to submit 2D benches? Yes; he's young enough to be my son, or maybe I'm old enough to be his dad... But still. This whole thing about "we just want to spare October the hassle of being called a cheat" is just preposterous. I say; let people call her a cheat; and then watch them get shut down once dejo and October PROVE them wrong. It is not HWBot's job to protect October's feelings... Let dejo do that since he is the father. Quite amusing this thread, and this whole issue for that matter... So it goes like this: "We recognize you haven't broken any rules, but we just don't want your daughter to have her feelings hurt if/when she gets called out on a score so we're asking her to refrain from submitting for points"... That's inane to say the least. Edited February 10, 2011 by xXSebaSXx
Mr.Scott Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 It could be argued that one of the accounts be banned for violating our result sharing rules Based on what.....similiar screenshots? Ridiculous. See post 106 I'd be more suspicious of that.
hokiealumnus Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 I was staying out of this but I am a mod here, it's my job. OK, there are reasons to be concerned about the submissions and result sharing (not hardware sharing) namely the screens shots with items placed in basically the exact same positions. If you have two different people behind the keyboard, the chances of that happening are remote. There are several examples of this between the two accounts. It's true there is no rule preventing family members from creating accounts, friends & teams bench together sharing ideas and knowledge all the time ── hwbot is not against any of that, duh. But when you have results that look to be done on the same system by the same person (as the item placement pretty much confirms) there is a problem. It has been suggested that these two accounts be merged, I for one do not agree with that. Results in questions should be moderated and that is all. It could be argued that one of the accounts be banned for violating our result sharing rules, but hwbot chose to ask for an account merger instead. This goes back to the teaching/coaching thing I brought up. If she hasn't benched before and is getting started, from who do you think she is going to learn? Her father. Not remotely as some people, but right there, in person. He's going to instruct her in how to submit a screenshot, because a proper screenshot is going to be needed for a valid score. It stands to reason, then, that as he is used to doing it one way all the time to ensure he doesn't miss anything, that he would instruct her to do the same. Once that reasoning is cemented in her mind, likewise, she does it one way all the time as instructed when she was learning. So by your reasoning, if he had taught her how to submit screenshots with her CPUz / GPUz / results inverted to opposite sides of the screen, it would be legit and never have been questioned? If that's the tone you took in the PMs to which he's referring, I'd have gone the heck off myself. That does, in fact, sound like an accusation of cheating.
Maxi Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 Stop with the retarded accusations please. Roughly how many of the submissions would be moderated Mark? I'll check and get back with you.
Brolloks Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 It has been suggested that these two accounts be merged, I for one do not agree with that. Results in questions should be moderated and that is all. It could be argued that one of the accounts be banned for violating our result sharing rules, but hwbot chose to ask for an account merger instead. Mark, please man, what rules did they break...where is the proof of hardware sharing, massman said numerous times they are NOT being accused of cheating? Seriously ... I cannot believe you cannot see this !!
m0r7if3r Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 Innocent until proven guilty is what most people think . Apparently here it's guilty until proven innocent. Err...proven innocent? Guilty until the staff decides otherwise, regardless of the amount of proof...to the argument that window layout is the same, that's something that's very easily learned. And honestly, dejo's a smart guy, if he were trying to cheat anyone out of anything don't you think he would have rearranged the windows some?
Massman Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 Innocent until proven guilty is what most people think . Apparently here it's guilty until proven innocent. That would be a witty remark if this was a discussion about guilt/punishment/ban. Sadly enough, it's not. Therefore it's not witty, but irrelevant.
Khemikal796 Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 What specifically about two members benching for the same team do you have a problem with? Something came up that looked suspicious between two users of the same team, so you (HWBot) queried the users and have in fact been given proof that they are two real people using different hardware. I am not seeing the problem here at all. You followed protocol, they followed protocol, anyone else in the same situation doing just as all parties involved here would have been following protocol. Was it the coaching that one member gave to the other that is the problem? If that is the case then why can't the new person start off clean without the coaching? Then the problem this brings up is what constitutes coaching. Is it reading information from a forum? A website? Asking in person? The same information gets exchanged no matter what the medium of exchange is, the only thing that changes is the speed at which information can exchange hands. Are you (HWBot) ready to start policing all possible combination of multiple members of each/every team possibly being in the same household and making sure only one of them is submitting points for the team? This is what you guys are leading yourselves into whether you like it or not. Do you have a fool proof way to know that two submissions are or are not from the same household? I've done my best to make sure this does not point fingers or specify any users because that does not, and should not matter. Any two or more users in the same situation should be treated the same and that is what I'm trying to make sure happens with my questions. Unfortunately you mention that this isn't the case when you said... I might be out of line here, but I guess if the daughter's account would just have low-end hardware, none of which also in Dejo's account and reasonably low total score, it would've been under the radar for sure. Like I said, we closed eyes twice. You blatantly admit that two lesser users doing the same thing would not cause a problem in HWBot's eyes. How can you treat users differently and still expect the community to have faith in you as our leaders? Steps need to be taken to make sure that all users are looked at in the same light.
Brolloks Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 Stop with the retarded accusations please. +100 You said it !!
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