cheaters sucks..

[dinos22]

hipro made a good suggestion

 

you should definitely bench in public to put ppls minds at ease

[SF3D]

George, I wanted to go to HIT but it's incompatible with my wallet/university schedule.

 

You really should come there. I think the organizers can make that happen.

 

If money isn't problem, you can come?

 

I will be there and it would be cool to see how you do your benchmarks. I'm not talking about reproducing scores, but you could show how well these parts can overclock in our hands.

 

I think some people might think that I'm trustworthy person and If I believe, that your benching and scores in HIT 2008 are real, that would make your life easier.

 

Think about it

[hipro5]

I bet that he will not come.....

Reminds me of "another" person doing such things without providing real evidence NEVER till now....

 

Do NOT expect him to Russia....

 

BAD thing though is that I thought that mrlobber was decent...

When he moved to the "other" forum, their "master" have manipulate them with some kind of brain wash, to cheet...

Edited November 7, 2008 by hipro5

[t0mz0r]

Great idea, SF3D

 

I bet that he will not come.....

Reminds me of "another" person doing such things without providing real evidence NEVER till now....

 

Do NOT expect him to Russia....

 

BAD thing though is that I thought that mrlobber was decent...

When he moved to the "other" forum, their "master" have manipulate them with some kind of brain wash, to cheet...

 

 

With all respect to who you are:

[hipro5]

Great idea, SF3D

 

 

 

 

With all respect to who you are:

 

I'm none....Just an Internet person...

 

....and I didn't acctually understand that photo you have uploaded...

[Massman]

To whine = moaning, bitching around

Whine = a alcohol-containing drink which (in france) is often accompanied by cheese as some sort of snack.

 

I'll be in Russia as well, by the way .

[hipro5]

I'll be in Russia as well, by the way .

 

....and IF you see by chance TaPaKaH, tell him hi by me....

[knopflerbruce]

I bet that he will not come.....

Reminds me of "another" person doing such things without providing real evidence NEVER till now....

 

Do NOT expect him to Russia....

 

BAD thing though is that I thought that mrlobber was decent...

When he moved to the "other" forum, their "master" have manipulate them with some kind of brain wash, to cheet...

 

It's not mrlobber's responsibility to prove that he's innocent, so he really shouldn't have to travel around the globe proving stuff. Those who want to see the results should come to his place.

 

I thought he shared a couple of validations that supported his clocks:confused:

[Predator]

oh this is so funny, now i feel an exponential growth of envyness floating around

 

keep "surprising" me

[Gautam]

I bet that he will not come.....

Reminds me of "another" person doing such things without providing real evidence NEVER till now....

 

Hey George, how much would you pay for a set of DDR3 that does 1040 7-6-6-15 for 32M, and a board that does 650 FSB along with it? Shall we get the bidding started?

[BenchZowner]

It's not mrlobber's responsibility to prove that he's innocent, so he really shouldn't have to travel around the globe proving stuff. Those who want to see the results should come to his place.

 

I thought he shared a couple of validations that supported his clocks:confused:

 

Validations mean nothing.

It can be "hacked" relatively easy.

 

Hey George, how much would you pay for a set of DDR3 that does 1040 7-6-6-15 for 32M, and a board that does 650 FSB along with it? Shall we get the bidding started?

 

1 kidney down

[Brian y.]

 

 

 

With all respect to who you are:

well said:)

[Predator]

Validations mean nothing.

It can be "hacked" relatively easy.

 

 

 

1 kidney down

 

if validations mean nothing then hwbot shall pull off all cpuz scores right?

 

 

 

@ the rest of "supporters" why don't anyone of you fly Latvia and watch Sam benching off, if he cheats i will cover all expenses plus a 10%

 

or maybe you are afraid of been brainwashed as well

Edited November 7, 2008 by Predator

[Oliver]

cmon guys beg up

 

i tought we where at hwbot not kinderbot uh?

 

obviously, Sam have access to alot of hw which give him some nice stuff for sure, but the most important things is:

 

to know how to play it

 

lets think back on the the fast and the furious:

 

its not how you stand by your car

 

its how you drive you car

 

same goes with hw, its not look what i got, but its how u play it

[Eldonko]

Ive had enough of this bullshit, honestly. How would you like it if we called you and your team cheaters every time you submitted a bench and made a big scene about everything you do? It is getting old, you are a grown man, act like it.

 

I can see reporting a result and discussing the validity of it, that is fine. Attacking the whole forum implying everyone is cheating and such is not acceptable. Like you, we take hwbot competition very seriously and it is not fair to make comments like this.

 

BAD thing though is that I thought that mrlobber was decent...

When he moved to the "other" forum, their "master" have manipulate them with some kind of brain wash, to cheet... [/b]

Edited November 7, 2008 by Eldonko

[BenchZowner]

if validations mean nothing then hwbot shall pull off all cpuz scores right?

 

I just said that CPU-z validations can be altered ( faked ).

Everybody knows that, and I know lots of people who can do it ( if they really wanted to ).

I bet I can do it too, but I don't.

Can you guarantee that nobody is doing it though ?

[Predator]

I just said that CPU-z validations can be altered ( faked ).

Everybody knows that, and I know lots of people who can do it ( if they really wanted to ).

I bet I can do it too, but I don't.

Can you guarantee that nobody is doing it though ?

 

i know what you meant, and hence i keep thinking they should be pulled off if it's that easy to fake

 

it might be relatively easy to fake a score, if so, no one is safe to be questioned free

 

the key is we are then bound to honesty, the point is the cheating accusements are always thrown by the same guys, i don't remember any of us calling cheat anyone else, EVER

[knopflerbruce]

I just said that CPU-z validations can be altered ( faked ).

Everybody knows that, and I know lots of people who can do it ( if they really wanted to ).

I bet I can do it too, but I don't.

Can you guarantee that nobody is doing it though ?

 

Sure, you can fake validations. The only thing that can't be faked is if someone is watching;) Perhaps we need a new rule, global top 5 scores must be approved by x number of other users that are not friends or members of the bencher's team.

 

There is no proof of cheating here, only some (very) high clocks. Why bother cheating for a 2nd place, btw? Obviously there is another dude who has better HW than mrlobber. If this score is so unbelieavable, then how could it be just 2nd? If the memory and CPU are both beyond any imaginable limits?

[George_o/c]

I just said that CPU-z validations can be altered ( faked ).

Everybody knows that, and I know lots of people who can do it ( if they really wanted to ).

I bet I can do it too, but I don't.

Can you guarantee that nobody is doing it though ?

 

Οf course you can't ... it's getting ridiculous though ... How are we ever going to know if something is valid or not ...

 

Validation ---> can be hacked

Screenshot ---> can be edited/photoshop-ed

Video ---> Cheat program could easily run at the "background", without being spotted

 

[Massman]

Okay, I think we've seen and said enough about this.

 

From what I understand of this discussion, the main problem is the fact that Team Latvia (Tapakah, MrLobber and Kiwi) always seems to have very, very good hardware to bench with, be it either videocards, processors, memory kits or motherboards. If I understand correctly, the actual scores are not being questioned, nor are the actual frequencies that have been achieved on that particular hardware; it's a matter of 'too much good hardware for one person', especially since those persons claim not to have handpicked hardware.

 

Now, let me clear up the term 'handpicked' as I think we're using different definitions here. If Tapakah refers to handpicking, he means hardware that has been selected by the manufacturer and send to a bencher in order to achieve outstanding frequencies. Pro and Gautam probably use the definition to handpick equals to select one out of many samples, which is very different from the definition Tapakah uses. In the first one, you only have one piece of hardware that you work with: the very good overclocking cpu/vga/memory/motherboard; in the second definition you have to pretest very much hardware in order to FIND the best overclocking one.

 

As far as I know (I didn't check it myself), Tapakah has worked in the warehouse of an hardware distributor at the RMA department. If that's true, he would have acces to A LOT OF hardware, which he could pretest anytime he wanted to. Considering the amount of time he spends on overclocking, from what I've heard from MrLobber, it wouldn't come to a surprise to me if he indeed has spent that much time on pretesting the hardware. Now, this process can be called handpicking hardware, if you use the second definition, no? Furthermore, chances of finding the golden hardware would raise quite a bit. In addition, it's a known fact that not all the hardware is Tapakah's, which means that lightning didn't struck at the same place every single time.

 

BUT, even if we rule out the hypothesis of the incorrect definition, the scores still look valid, as there are no scores that are really out of line, as Gautam already said. Therefor, it would seem a little drastic and in fact way over the top to consider the results as cheated and invalid, as we only have a limited amount of tools which we can use to identify a cheat. Statistics can be used to raise questions, but cannot be used to convict a person. As already said, there is a way to decrease the questions raised about the legitimacy of Team Latvia's scores, namely bench in public. The longer this is postponed, the longer people will have questions, obviously, so I would ask Sam to think about HIT again. As far as I know, the people who organise the bench session at HIT can help you to come and university schedule ... well, skipping a few lessons shouldn't be that bad (). I see you have plans on visiting Cebit09, so hopefully we will actually meet there.

 

Regarding the other comments:

- Unlike what some persons apparenly think, being a member of the OCX Team does not make to a cheater and the membership can not be used as an argument in this kind of discussion.

- Although everyone has the right to question a score, I would still very much stress the fact that we are on a public forum and therefor should be polite. Behave, behave, behave!!

- Yes, we all know that benchmarks can be cheated ... I think we also know that people do actually cheat, just like you'll find people cheating in every sport. I believe that the correct question is not "How can we cheat", but "how can we reduce the number of cheaters"

[dinos22]

because we all know OC is very predictable and repeatable and never much about luck or patience

 

you know what i mean

why do you post such a smartass comment

[mrlobber]

BAD thing though is that I thought that mrlobber was decent...

When he moved to the "other" forum, their "master" have manipulate them with some kind of brain wash, to cheet...

 

Hipro, thank you for opening my eyes to the thing how easy people change their "sides" based on things they think the "next morning" without having any evidence.

 

To your knowledge, I've been an OCX member almost from the very beginning of that forum when it had like 50 or less registered users (even before the server crashes which occurred through the last year). Though, I've never spammed around much, and have always tried not to remain blindly one sided in conflicts which boiled around previously. You can easily see that if you look back around in the past. And I've never spoken with OPB even on MSN, not to mention phone or real-life meeting. Thus, he obviously must have possession of some transcendental powers for being able to brainwash other minds over disances larger than several thousand miles...

 

Anyway, some of you have just made my final decision of quitting OC so much easier. In a benching world where multi thousand $ worth rigs dominate in Vantage (making competitive benching hardly achievable for people not owning their own serious business), and 2D benchmarks are the last-gasp-of-fun left for people which are neither millionaires nor directly/indirectly sponsored by h/w manufacturers, if a result which isn't even a WR, is readily called a "cheat", without any ability (because, as you say, "validations can be faked", "videos can be faked", "h/w clocks can be faked") to prove the opposite, it eventually doesn't come down to proof and logic, but some mysteriously driven belief of almost religious roots. This especially scares me by looking in the past when my country was forced to live under similar-principle belief systems for 50 years, when anyone could be named "enemy of the motherland" without any chance of proving the opposite, because, for the NKVD, MVD, KGB (whichever name that organization carried at particular times), the proof (even if it existed) actually never mattered. What mattered was that, using the classic Orwell's quote, "all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others", and you usually happened not to be in that "more equal" category.

 

I don't see my place in such a world.

 

It looks like me & Sam are now almost-the ultimate cheaters. Obviously, we are the first intelligent cheaters who could fake any cpu/gpu speed while being able to fake the scores so that they still would look "reasonable" enough. But we're still not perfect, and, just like usual criminals, have ignored some small details which have lead us to being caught red handed. Because the ultimate cheat would be to get these clocks lower (so that no accusations of "lottery hardware" followed), fake the results a little bit worse, so that the 32M WR, for instance, would be beaten by 0.1 second only, and then safely claim this new achievement as the result of many hours hard benching. That's what we're working on right now, and then you'll not be able to prove anything, MUAHAHAHAHAA

 

Or even, perhaps this is the best time to start faking Vantage scores (since we can reproduce any validation output, we could claim having a Quad Crossfire rig, and start faking 3D results as well to eventually put that crap 3D bench back in the abyss it originally came from).

 

You probably know kiwi from XS. Now list him in the cheaters category as well (sorry kiwi if it indeed happened, but it is inevitable anyway, I guess). After all, he has also benched together with Sam (though not for WR's), and we've met and sold various hardware each other virtually hundreds of times. So he must be "infected" with the "virus", or "brainwashed", if speaking hipro's words. Oh, and btw, both that EVGA board as well as the Asus came to me from him. Suspicious, eh?

/sarcasm mode off

 

This is my last intelligent post on the matter. From now on, I'll eagerly wait for the moment when I'm going to be able to put a big fat middle finger right in the face of several name-calling people at the second, when it will eventually be proven that these scores were not faked. Now of course, I'm expecting the same from everyone if the opposite were somehow "proven", and I would not be insulted by such an attitude then. Right now I am though.

And by the way, so far it looks like for several people it is much more convenient to continue posting "cheater" stuff from their comfortable chairs than to actually try and do anything on that "public bench" to really happen.

 

One more thing. Hipro, stand up for the words you said about OCX or take them back. It is fine if you have your own negative opinion on particular people (including probably me from now on), however, implying what you said about a whole forum / team is a different story. Yourself, I doubt, you would like it if somebody gave similar comments about the Greek team. And don't worry about my blindness, I'd have said what I just said also if you would have said it about XS or any other forum I've been a member of.

 

Other than that, come over to Latvia this winter or next spring / summer (this is a general invitation not addressed directly to hipro). There won't be any overclocking championship or anything like that because, as a small market, Latvia doesn't interest any of the big hardware companies (moreover, they would want us benching 3D (read = Vantage) for PR, which we don't want). However, perhaps for some mysterious reason the companies still might find it fun to sponsor you a trip to our country. What I can promise, beer is really tasteful here, although myself, I prefer rum better, since beer usually gets me headache only. And with the economic recession in full speed soon, the overinflated local prices will be falling down here soon too, and every tourist will be welcomed much warmer than before. This is a nice and beautiful country, you'll see, and although bad people can be found everywhere, there aren't, and won't be any cheaters anywhere near either my living room, or Sam's place at the other side of our capital city, Riga. You'll see.

Edited November 7, 2008 by mrlobber

[dinos22]

so you think that i never benched in public lol and have no experience in benching

 

tapakah has at least 5xcomponents with him still that will very easily prove the legitimacy of his scores. I didnt say he had to do the same scores...not at all...but with such great pieces of hardware he should easily be able to show their potential...very easily...as its not just one piece of hardware but many....surely at least one of them will be able to do the clocks/settings/frequency claimed

 

surely with a few days of benching in russia and some of those components it should be pretty easily achieved

 

you are the one ass-u-m-ing

[Predator]

Hipro, thank you for opening my eyes to the thing how easy people change their "sides" based on things they think the "next morning" without having any evidence.

 

To your knowledge, I've been an OCX member almost from the very beginning of that forum when it had like 50 or less registered users (even before the server crashes which occurred through the last year). Though, I've never spammed around much, and have always tried not to remain blindly one sided in conflicts which boiled around previously. You can easily see that if you look back around in the past. And I've never spoken with OPB even on MSN, not to mention phone or real-life meeting. Thus, he obviously must have possession of some transcendental powers for being able to brainwash other minds over disances larger than several thousand miles...

 

Anyway, some of you have just made my final decision of quitting OC so much easier. In a benching world where multi thousand $ worth rigs dominate in Vantage (making competitive benching hardly achievable for people not owning their own serious business), and 2D benchmarks are the last-gasp-of-fun left for people which are neither millionaires nor directly/indirectly sponsored by h/w manufacturers, if a result which isn't even a WR, is readily called a "cheat", without any ability (because, as you say, "validations can be faked", "videos can be faked", "h/w clocks can be faked") to prove the opposite, it eventually doesn't come down to proof and logic, but some mysteriously driven belief of almost religious roots. This especially scares me by looking in the past when my country was forced to live under similar-principle belief systems for 50 years, when anyone could be named "enemy of the motherland" without any chance of proving the opposite, because, for the NKVD, MVD, KGB (whichever name that organization carried at particular times), the proof (even if it existed) actually never mattered. What mattered was that, using the classic Orwell's quote, "all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others", and you usually happened not to be in that "more equal" category.

 

I don't see my place in such a world.

 

 

 

This is my last intelligent post on the matter. From now on, I'll eagerly wait for the moment when I'm going to be able to put a big fat middle finger right in the face of several name-calling people at the second, when it will eventually be proven that these scores were not faked. Now of course, I'm expecting the same from everyone if the opposite were somehow "proven", and I would not be insulted by such an attitude then. Right now I am though.

And by the way, so far it looks like for several people it is much more convenient to continue posting "cheater" stuff from their comfortable chairs than to actually try and do anything on that "public bench" to really happen.

 

One more thing. Hipro, stand up for the words you said about OCX or take them back. It is fine if you have your own negative opinion on particular people (including probably me from now on), however, implying what you said about a whole forum / team is a different story. Yourself, I doubt, you would like it if somebody gave similar comments about the Greek team. And don't worry about my blindness, I'd have said what I just said also if you would have said it about XS or any other forum I've been a member of.

 

Other than that, come over to Latvia this winter or next spring / summer (this is a general invitation not addressed directly to hipro). There won't be any overclocking championship or anything like that because, as a small market, Latvia doesn't interest any of the big hardware companies (moreover, they would want us benching 3D (read = Vantage) for PR, which we don't want). However, perhaps for some mysterious reason the companies still might find it fun to sponsor you a trip to our country. What I can promise, beer is really tasteful here, although myself, I prefer rum better, since beer usually gets me headache only. And with the economic recession in full speed soon, the overinflated local prices will be falling down here soon too, and every tourist will be welcomed much warmer than before. This is a nice and beautiful country, you'll see, and although bad people can be found everywhere, there aren't, and won't be any cheaters anywhere near either my living room, or Sam's place at the other side of our capital city, Riga. You'll see.

 

mrlobber, i would have say the same as you stated here, if my english wouldn't have suck so bad as it current does

 

the only thing i would change is the part of quiting, bro, don't give up just cause others think you cheat

 

btw, i still think the Predator would kick ass badly your chainsaw holder making autostop anytime

[dinos22]

of course i benched in public many times

 

here is an example of my first big bench

big show (ATOMIC Live...one of the biggest in australia)

massive audience

our LN2 tank was damaged and we had 7L of LN2 or something stupid like that to try and pull off some OCs

one of my first LN2 bench sessions

i never took this CPU to LN2 before personally but i knew it was a good overclocker

 

We(me/pro/moloko) did one of the highest ever frequencies for 32M on second go (first run crashed(superpi shot off) on 8th loop...we actually cold bugged it...YES we didnt even test for cold bugs ) with a lot of ppl watching including our main Intel contact who we just met not long before that who was going to hopefully start helping with hardware.....we only received this mobo the day before and did some quick FSB tests on DICE just to make sure we can do at least 550 which i was hoping to achieve......only moments before main show which was even scheduled for a certain time...So we had a specific time windows when we had to do this as well

 

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=163000

 

 

 

 

it was not a tweaked run but to pull of that frequency with a few litres of LN2 with such pressure is not a small task

i've done a lot of stuff before and after that including TV shows....

i know all about pressure benching

Edited November 8, 2008 by dinos22