cheaters sucks..

[dinos22]

my point is

he has lots of hardware which he benched with in the past that EVERYONE would consider gems

 

one of those will be able to reproduce these results

 

if it does I AM CONVINCED

 

very simple

[dinos22]

and all I'm saying is that benching and good results is large part luck of the draw, timings and patience, things were are not easy to control in a public area.

 

5 different pieces of his OWN hardware

and a few days in russia whether during the show or not

 

that is PLENTY of time to pull off something decent

 

tapakah's results indicated that he is a supreme bencher with great troubleshooting experience....i dont know what your experience is like benching like this jmke but these results say a lot about the bencher as they do about kingpin, MM, hipro and others that are on top

[dinos22]

are you arguing for the sake of arguing or a little slow

 

did i say that he has to provide his best scores

 

look at the specific pieces of information provided in the thread

 

we are talking about for example just bein able to run RAM at 660MHz 4-4-4- 2.5vdimm stable on that Biostar board

 

that results is repeatable very very easily if the hardware really is capable of that

 

if it isnt it will be easy to find out

 

i am not saying he has to do the same times dumbass

[dinos22]

yes you are frustrating me with your ridiculous comments

you need to sit down and think about what someone writes before you shoot off your mouth. it will probably make a conversation a lot more civilised

[Predator]

 

 

 

 

you don't need much more of an incentive with those "bring it" at the event huh

[dinos22]

:nana::nana::nana::nana::nana:

damn it i knew someone would figure out my secret

[pro]

i am certainly not accusing all of ocx,

 

it seems this issue will never be resolved...

 

dont get the wrong picture, this isnt about envy as its been made to be believed. this is about the fact one individual posses so many pieces of hardware that are unmatched in raw mhz..

 

if sam really does have all these pieces of hardware he claims to, then let us all learn from him and his binning processes as hes doing really well..

 

if he doesnt, and something else is going on, then so be it, thats something only he really knows, do what you gotta do man

[Massman]

Anyway, some of you have just made my final decision of quitting OC so much easier. In a benching world where multi thousand $ worth rigs dominate in Vantage (making competitive benching hardly achievable for people not owning their own serious business), and 2D benchmarks are the last-gasp-of-fun left for people which are neither millionaires nor directly/indirectly sponsored by h/w manufacturers, if a result which isn't even a WR, is readily called a "cheat", without any ability (because, as you say, "validations can be faked", "videos can be faked", "h/w clocks can be faked") to prove the opposite, it eventually doesn't come down to proof and logic, but some mysteriously driven belief of almost religious roots. This especially scares me by looking in the past when my country was forced to live under similar-principle belief systems for 50 years, when anyone could be named "enemy of the motherland" without any chance of proving the opposite, because, for the NKVD, MVD, KGB (whichever name that organization carried at particular times), the proof (even if it existed) actually never mattered. What mattered was that, using the classic Orwell's quote, "all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others", and you usually happened not to be in that "more equal" category.

 

I don't see my place in such a world.

 

If I remember correctly, you were one of the people who actually worked in the CDT-thread over at XS, no?

 

Anyway, the fact that you're quitting the overclocking scene partially because multi-dollar Vantage rigs rule the world has nothing to do with the actual money you have to spend on your rig, but has everything to do with what goals you set for yourself in this overclocking community. If you're aiming for top spots in every benchmark, then yes, the multi-doller Vantage rigs will mess things up for you pretty badly, assuming you will not find any source of hardware besides your own pocket. If you, on the contrary, aim for having fun in overclocking, it's pretty easy to have a lot of fun overclocking ... very easy in fact. I have at the moment the gear to aim for top spots in some global rankings: E8600 with excellent stepping and a 4870X2. But instead, I rather spend my time hunting for sub30s 1M with my Athlon XP ... weird no? And I promise you, when I've finally broke 30s, I'll probably start benching my Asrock AGP motherboard, for which I bought an X6800. It's all a matter of personal objectives.

 

Now, I do know what comment will follow: Hwbot doesn't allow people to bench in old hardware categories, because the big points are only to find in the global rankings. Well, we are actually working on a new hwboints system that would hand out more points to excellent old hardware overclocks. From the moment RB gives me approval to post the suggestion in public, you'll know what it's about.

 

Next there's the rather incorrect analogy of the KGB-alike instances. I think it's more than normal, at least these days, that scores can be questioned and discussed, which is in fact completely the opposite of what you like us to believe. There's room for discussion and doubt, which is not the fact in what you say. There's a giant difference between being accused and being convicted here, please understand that. If you have indeed no place in such world, namely the overclocking scene, than you will have a hard time anywhere else as well. Everywhere in this world, when someone is better than the rest, people will question that person and his results. Jezus supposed to do miracles, but I know many people, including me, have a hard time believing he actually walked over water. Bolt broke two world records on the latest Olympics, but even the head of the Olympic comitee has doubts and claims that "we'll only know the true champions of these Olympics in 2016". Do you remember what happened when Kinc and Shamino broke the 3DM06 world record a few years ago? I'll spare you the details, but they eventually pulled that score, although it was proved more than legit a few months later.

 

One more thing. Hipro, stand up for the words you said about OCX or take them back. It is fine if you have your own negative opinion on particular people (including probably me from now on), however, implying what you said about a whole forum / team is a different story. Yourself, I doubt, you would like it if somebody gave similar comments about the Greek team. And don't worry about my blindness, I'd have said what I just said also if you would have said it about XS or any other forum I've been a member of.

 

Which is a comment I agree totally on. If you want to give comments on other people, accept that you will be given similar comments back. There's a very nice thread in here that illustrates what is being said here.

 

so you think that i never benched in public lol and have no experience in benching

 

Actually, he never said you didn't bench in public or don't have any experience in overclocking whatsoever. All he tried to explain was that overclocking is not predictable, which is actually incorrect as I explained underneath.

 

let me know if make their best scores in public events or on their own at home in their own country/setting

 

That's not the point, John. The point is that this kind of gem hardware can always be pushed, in front of an audience, to certain frequencies which make it special overclocking gear. If he hits 650Mhz instead of 660Mhz, it's fine as well, it's just a matter of showing that with a little bit of luck and patience it's possible to achieve that frequency. Same goes for the videocards. If he hits 1210Mhz instead of 1250Mhz, everyone will believe that 1250MHz is doable in an enclosed environment where you have all the time to work up to the highest frequencies.

 

Overclocking is actually quite predictable in this way that equal hardware at equal frequencies should perform pretty much equal, variance allowed of course. It's not like your CPU will do 6500MHz one day and only 5700MHz the next day in the same conditions. And if it does, there's definitly something wrong with that CPU.

 

you don't need much more of an incentive with those "bring it" at the event huh

 

That was my initial thought as well

[hipro5]

@ the rest of "supporters" why don't anyone of you fly Latvia and watch Sam benching off, if he cheats i will cover all expenses plus a 10%

 

or maybe you are afraid of been brainwashed as well

 

I'm IN on that deal......

 

PLUS that afterwards and if it was cheating involved:

 

a. those two users will be banned for LIFE in every forum and in hwbot and

 

b. YOU will personally (pay me of caurse ) open a thread in XS, OCX, hwbot asking sorry for cheaters that are existing ONLY in OCX...

 

are you IN or are you chicken?.....

 

 

EDIT: I don't PERSONALY call these guys "cheaters" - for the time been - .... I just have seen BEFORE and now, "strange scores" and I HAD SENT a PM a month ago or so, to a hwbot mod about them and watch them closely - NOW as I see those "strange scores" are keep coming and coming.......

Edited November 8, 2008 by hipro5

[hipro5]

let me know if make their best scores in public events or on their own at home in their own country/setting

 

me, Vince and Shamino, broke a year ago the 2k6 with 2 x 2900s...... IF I was alone - for example - the score whould be questioned because that period of time 2k6 was "NVIDIA's bench"....That WR which was made by three of us, took place at my place watched by over of 20 people.....

 

Lately, I've benched and took the 2k1 WR in 4870s CF category in public too....

 

SO benching in public with hardware you KNOW and you're familiar with, is NOTHING more that benching them at home alone....

Edited November 8, 2008 by hipro5

[Predator]

I'm IN on that deal......

 

PLUS that afterwards and if it was cheating involved:

 

a. those two users will be banned for LIFE in every forum and in hwbot and

 

b. YOU will personally (pay me of caurse ) open a thread in XS, OCX, hwbot asking sorry for cheaters that are existing ONLY in OCX...

 

are you IN or are you chicken?.....

 

 

EDIT: I don't PERSONALY call these guys "cheaters" - for the time been - .... I just have seen BEFORE and now, "strange scores" and I HAD SENT a PM a month ago or so, to a hwbot mod about them and watch them closely - NOW as I see those "strange scores" are keep coming and coming.......

 

 

Only in OCX huh? , your team has been accused of hardware sharing recently, did i or any of the OCX members jump into that crossfire? NOT, why? because we have class

 

I would be mad too if with all the hardware sharing i would still lost the 1st so quick , buy hey, I AM NOT calling your team cheater of course.....

 

i am IN, will you fly to Latvia to watch them how they easilly bench at those speeds, and then will you ask for apologies in public? or are you chicken?

 

take it easy budy, all an air

[hipro5]

Only in OCX huh? , your team has been accused of hardware sharing recently, did i or any of the OCX members jump into that crossfire? NOT, why? because we have class

 

I would be mad too if with all the hardware sharing i would still lost the 1st so quick , buy hey, I AM NOT calling your team cheater of course.....

 

i am IN, will you fly to Latvia to watch them how they easilly bench at those speeds, and then will you ask for apologies in public? or are you chicken?

 

take it easy budy, all an air

 

OK..... Deal with the guys if they want to and I'll tell them when......Deal?....

Yes, if they bench THAT HIGH (or a bit lower), I'm not afraid to ask appologies in public.....When I'm RIGHT, I STAND UP and fight and when I'm WRONG, I accept it.....

I'm not "hidding" like "someone else" ALWAYS does......

 

P.S. jmike you're an ass...

[Massman]

Take this to PM/mail, thanks.

[t0mz0r]

When I'm RIGHT, I STAND UP and fight and when I'm WRONG, I accept it.....

I'm not "hidding" like "someone else" ALWAYS does......

 

Well, maybe someone has just outgrown the whole kindergarden accusations.

 

I would too.

[hipro5]

Well, maybe someone has just outgrown the whole kindergarden accusations.

 

I would too.

 

......or maybe someone is trying to avoid the reality....

[mrlobber]

If I remember correctly, you were one of the people who actually worked in the CDT-thread over at XS, no?

 

Anyway, the fact that you're quitting the overclocking scene partially because multi-dollar Vantage rigs rule the world has nothing to do with the actual money you have to spend on your rig, but has everything to do with what goals you set for yourself in this overclocking community. If you're aiming for top spots in every benchmark, then yes, the multi-doller Vantage rigs will mess things up for you pretty badly, assuming you will not find any source of hardware besides your own pocket. If you, on the contrary, aim for having fun in overclocking, it's pretty easy to have a lot of fun overclocking ... very easy in fact. I have at the moment the gear to aim for top spots in some global rankings: E8600 with excellent stepping and a 4870X2. But instead, I rather spend my time hunting for sub30s 1M with my Athlon XP ... weird no? And I promise you, when I've finally broke 30s, I'll probably start benching my Asrock AGP motherboard, for which I bought an X6800. It's all a matter of personal objectives.

 

Now, I do know what comment will follow: Hwbot doesn't allow people to bench in old hardware categories, because the big points are only to find in the global rankings. Well, we are actually working on a new hwboints system that would hand out more points to excellent old hardware overclocks. From the moment RB gives me approval to post the suggestion in public, you'll know what it's about.

 

Next there's the rather incorrect analogy of the KGB-alike instances. I think it's more than normal, at least these days, that scores can be questioned and discussed, which is in fact completely the opposite of what you like us to believe. There's room for discussion and doubt, which is not the fact in what you say. There's a giant difference between being accused and being convicted here, please understand that. If you have indeed no place in such world, namely the overclocking scene, than you will have a hard time anywhere else as well. Everywhere in this world, when someone is better than the rest, people will question that person and his results. Jezus supposed to do miracles, but I know many people, including me, have a hard time believing he actually walked over water. Bolt broke two world records on the latest Olympics, but even the head of the Olympic comitee has doubts and claims that "we'll only know the true champions of these Olympics in 2016". Do you remember what happened when Kinc and Shamino broke the 3DM06 world record a few years ago? I'll spare you the details, but they eventually pulled that score, although it was proved more than legit a few months later.

 

Massman, I've always liked discussions with your participation, as you never seem to lose rational approach to any topic, thus, trying to stay as objective as possible. I'd love to discuss with you all this, and more in a live meeting whenever it would happen

 

Perhaps I was too harsh in my comparisons, thus, to a certain degree (more than 50% ) I actually agree with your follow-up comments I quoted above. Then again, there are a couple of points I'd like to further comment myself

 

First of all, my decision of quitting competitive OC of any degree, which has matured itself within the last six months, is mostly caused by an internal "focus shift" and some other changes in my life. Thus, the latest events (associated with scores, which I personally considered to be the final serious benches for me) in fact wouldn't have changed my previously made decision anyway, and I just used the opportunity to express my views of the latest trends in the overclocking world.

 

Second, you're absolutely right in your comments about the fun part in overclocking, and I'm glad to hear that hwbot is considering moving to a different hwboints system where elite benches of older hardware would gain more weight as an award for the effort people have been putting in there (although note that the comment you said you expected didn't follow ). However, my personal concern with the "WR benching" is that today, as never before, it has become not a race of skills and "sense of adventure exploring never reached territories in hardware frequencies", but a race and display of PR events, with h/w companies using top end overclockers for their product open and secret promotions, organizing "overclocking events" where your application gets promptly refused as soon as you mention the country you're coming from, and other both "hardwarical" as well as " boxes they are trying to push individual overclockers into (as a more xtreme type of guy, Sam has been much more hit because of this attitude, although I wouldn't like reveal some essential stories without his permission). But it shows up in the forums as well with people crowding around Nehalem and Vantage threads, raving about "great skills" in topics where close-to-wr scores with a couple expensive videocards running on stock air have been reached, and so on. Low end overclocking has not lost anything of the personal objectives appeal which you were talking about, however, human is essentially a social being, and you want to share the fun you experienced clocking a particular setup or reaching a small milestone with the others as well... but if nobody except your local close friends is paying attention, you start wondering, is it worth devoting any fine tuning effort in this at all... yes, it's all about personal objectives, as you said.

 

And last, about the better results being questioned... actually I don't see much difference between being accussed and convicted. Yes, as you outlined, it is there (technically), but in the overclocking world, with the accusations your reputation is damaged permanently (that is how I still see it, different people might have different opinions on this). And it certainly doesn't help that I've heard several behind-the-scene reasons how the animosity between XS and OCX originally developed as well as details on Sam's ban at XS which are certainly not the one-sided events as they have been portrayed so far.

 

This small margin between accusations and convictions is why I do not watch competitive sports much anymore, for example. The tip of the iceberg which has been revealed in recent years with sports gambling and associated bribing impacting games in team sports, and secret doping laboratories working for individual athletes, outlines the fact that now you can't draw a line anymore where some nature blessed tremenduous talent of an athlete is involved, or if it has been boosted by underground chemicals unknown to doping control. Even though there are only handful of athletes caught red handed, you can't be sure of anyone anymore. I believe, the comment you quoted on Bolt's phenomenal records, is exactly on what I just said above.

 

Linking all this back to high level overclocking, I see some astonishing results being questioned, and some not. If it is indeed so easy to fake them, then, as I said in my previous post, what hinders anyone who's smart enough of faking credible results with credible hardware frequencies? Even in public if cheat programs were to be run in background? I know, this discussion is leading nowhere as these questions have been asked numerous times before, but I still want to understand.

[hipro5]

I have thinked about this situation a LOT and I came to some conclussions:

 

a. - and the EASIEST WAY - is this CPU to be SEND to a respectable overclocker to bench it at 6600MHz AT LEAST as for Super-Pi 1M and AT LEAST 6550MHz as for Pi-Fast.......

IF he manages to do so, then I - personally - believe every other bench that was made...

IF NOT, then ALL the other benches which was done with the VGA's, mobos, CPUs are FAKE....

 

b. Go to HIT at Russia with the hardware and bench it there....ALL expences are paid as I read so there is no excuse the money thing....

 

c. I come to Latvia and see myself so to convince pro or any other, that you guys are right.....

 

 

IF any of the above can't be done, then I'm sorry but PERSONALLY I will not believe that the scores provided are "legal" and not cheated....

[boblemagnifique]

Tapatak ->

 

I would like to see some videos and pics of your benchmark in action, it makes the authenticity of your material has exceptional (the best as usual) ...

[TheKarmakazi]

I can understand people questioning a score, since there has been cheating by people in the past (not refering to anyone in this thread at all, just in general). Many of the above post are valid and thought provoking.... but many are also childish and pointless. I think most people here are adults, and should try to act like one. When it devolves into name calling, nothing will be resolved. Even if you do not think the other person deserves your respect, restraint, or courtesy, you should give it to them. Cheaters, liars, thiefs, criminals, etc... all eventually get caught. And to my knowledge, no cheating has been PROVED. It is only speculation...

 

Although there are many things that may separate us (countries, hardware budgets, sponsorships, cherry picked hw, etc, etc), should we not concentrate on the thing that brings us together? Our love of hardware, overclocking, and pushing things past all previously believable limits? As a personal rule I try to stay out of things like this, and so I will not be posting my personal opinion. BUT, I think it would do a service to all involved if we just take a step back. If people want to bench publicly or fly to someones house to validate, fine. But really I think every record broken is a great thing! Someone has pushed it harder than anyone else has... this is a cause to celebrate! Competition can get the best of many of us, but an ego is a nasty thing to let rule you.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

edit: Mr.Lobber I sincerely hope you do not quit OC, especially over things such as this.

Edited November 8, 2008 by TheKarmakazi

[TaPaKaH]

I do not want to sound as I'm making excuses but it is really not THAT simple as you may think.

 

Sure, George can come to Riga to see us bench (please note that this initially wasn't my idea) but there are quite a few things that stand in the way, such as venue (my parents simply won't let someone with "bad manners" who doesn't speak neither Russian nor Latvian in my flat which is out primary bench location), cost (after WCH hockey Riga is much more expensive than, for example, Berlin or Paris) and entertainment. Sure, those can be solved with some effort put in the organisation but I don't want hipro to be the only adjudicator as he is, obviously, party interested and not always objective (pardon if I accuse you, George ... may be I don't know you very well yet).

 

As I've said, HIT is a no go as well.

To leave EU and go to Russia I need a visa, which, due to bureaucratic properties of Latvia, needs 1-2 full workdays spent on collecting necessary papers and 3-4 more weeks for "them" to stamp it in my pass ... time which I simply do not have.

Other question is the cost of tickets/hotel which, if you book them "so late" are going to cost a lot.

And, last, at the moment I have extremely intensive schedule at the university, so missing couple of days will be hard (I have a lot of "debts" I can barely manage already ... sorry, but I put personal education on top of overclocking in my priority list)

 

I suggest myself (can't speak for mrlobber) coming to CeBIT (or any other big public event which will take place early in 2009) where there will be a wider audience and more opportunities to make suggestions / ask questions "during the process".

I'd be happy to send my hardware to other person to confirm it but, if I'm afraid it won't make any sense as some consider me "the source of mass cheating evil who can brainwash everyone" (LOL), so the BS may not end with that

Edited November 8, 2008 by TaPaKaH

[hipro5]

Accually I don't have bad manners as you say.....

I'm a nice guy if you ask a LOT of people from the NET around the world that have met me in person.

My additude becomes a bit bad, ONLY when I see things like that and ONLY....

 

When CEBIT time comes as you claim, that CPU might have been "damaged" or burned and THERE YOU GO with ANOTHER excuse.....

 

BETTER is to send it to Dedal of SF3D or a person we ALL trust and respect, NOW - NOT after a month or so.....to clear things up....

IF you want to "crear things up" with NO OTHER excuses.....

 

ALL others are excuses to "crunch the time" like someone else did.....

Edited November 9, 2008 by hipro5

[Gautam]

BETTER is to send it to Dedal of SF3D or a person we ALL trust and respect, NOW - NOT after a month or so.....to clear things up....

That sounds pretty good to me...if either of those two can replicate then there will be no doubts. You can explain to them however it is you did it, then they can show the rest of us results.

 

(Someone like Kinc who isn't involved in hwbot might be worth a consideration too)

[Oliver]

when talking about shipping the cpu, it could also be to one from team japan

 

it is important that its a trusted person, bcoz if you get it you can just play bs with it or "force" it to degrade or eventually die, so clocks cant be re done again

[hipro5]

Oliver, IF MY name was involved in such occasions, the hell with the CPU M8 and I wouldn't care if the CPU whould die.....After all it's my name and not a flucken CPU if you can understand what I mean.....

 

PLUS it will be sent to TRUSTED person....

 

....AND I doupt that ANY of these things will happen (even send it to a trusted person) because I don't see any "possitive reaction" of these guys here....ONLY excuses here and there....and in the end the "list" of the "untrusted people" will grow bigger.....

Edited November 9, 2008 by hipro5

[Gautam]

I want to remind you guys that say it's always a certain bunch "singled out" or never the guys in the "elite club" that someone questions were raised over the scores of none other than Kinc in the past. First it was his 06 score a little over a year ago that most of us figured was bugged...he tried to replicate it himself, couldn't, and removed it promptly. (Even though that score was done live in front of many witnesses) Now there's this debacle over the 4870X2 scores. He was one of the first to have a "high" Crossfire score and many people thought it was bugged. He removed it, even AFTER making multiple videos showing that his game test scores were repeatable. I actually privately urged him to keep it published as we both felt that the score was fine (and it was a WR), but he said that he'd rather just remove it rather than have anyone even think for a second that he was doing something wrong. (Now of course we know that the score is perfectly reasonable and has since been passed)

 

Also perhaps a few VERY astute hwbot members might have noticed that about a month or so ago, Vince briefly submitted an apparently extremely fast 1M time somewhere in the 7.01 second range at little over 6500 flat on a Rampage Extreme BIOS 0206. I mentioned to him that it looked strangely fast for the clock. He had a feeling that it was way too fast as well, and suspected that it was a bug in SetFSB. He removed it on his own likely before anyone even noticed it.

 

To true legends, their reputation is worth more than any world record...