The Poll: Allow E.S. or disallow ?

[BenchZowner]

While I'm not a HWbot decision-maker, I would like to see what most of the overclockers think and want.

Do we want the E.S. ( especially the CPUs ) to be allowed for submissions and points on HWbot ?

Not allowed at all ?

Allowed but in a separate "pro" league ?

 

This poll is for everyone, not just extreme overclockers, so please everybody cast your vote.

[Leeghoofd]

it's always like hunting down the golden batch Bill, the ones that got them crazy AO ES samples just got the edge over the rest... but there are some freaky retails out there too... you can't ban them too, as they have an edge over the other retails...

 

it's a no win situation man...

 

Imagine if you bought one or more ES samples and they were all crap... case is like always : if you have good contacts or enough cash to spare you can do a wide selection of hardware. Users like me have to have big luck as I can only afford one CPU and one motherboard, if it's crap I have to try to sell it asap, probably with a big loss... and hoping the next buy will be better...

 

He with the most toys win Bill, nothing even you can do anything about it ( sadly )

[BenchZowner]

Luck is a factor indeed, but no luck can net you a retail B1 6.8GHz Pi...

That's what it's about.

[Leeghoofd]

And how many ES's do that ? one ? a few ?

What about all E8600 users that couldn't do 6.5Ghz 3D ? and had to settle at 6-6.2Ghz... same story but retail this time... in a past not so far away...

 

I see the ones voting againt ES in general as a bit frustrated clockers, just because they couldn't get these samples. I would want to know if they got an AO if they didn't want to bench the bejeezus out of it... it's life, some just have more fun... does it make them better than you, that's another thing... on paper yes they have the higher score, but can they do the same on a live event ? That's another thing...

 

Maybe Massman and co can work out a score based on efficiency ( score vs CPU/GPU clocks )...

Edited June 5, 2010 by Leeghoofd

[BenchZowner]

The E8600 situation you describe is normal and not considered an unfair situation.

Everybody can buy an E8600 and have equal chances to get a decent chip.

 

On the other hand the 980X e.s. and the 670 E.S. a tad less are things you can't get, it's a very different situation.

[Leeghoofd]

Only thing to me that is different with these E8600 and your dilemma is that the quantity is far less, for the rest it's all about a certain CPU that is just plain better then all the rest...

 

you can discuss endlessly, I just say good luck to those that have these clocking monsters, I can't compete untill I get a good CPU somewhere, somehow, someday. But ban, move their scores is a bit far stretched to me...

[Massman]

Maybe Massman and co can work out a score based on efficiency ( score vs CPU/GPU clocks )...

 

I can but people lie.

[BenchZowner]

The good E8600s aren't E.S. however, and the E8600 ES's weren't untouchable by the retails like the 980X & 670's are.

With the E8600's it was just a matter of luck or how many chips you can afford/RMA/whatever.

If you can't find a good one, that's your problem.

It's not like you can't buy one.

 

With the 980X/670 E.S. however, you can't really touch them with a retail.

You can't buy more than a very limited few of E.S. off ebay ( and of course, those could be pretested by another OCer and being sold because they sucked, what happens to the dozens andre, nick, and other ES people come by you think ? ).

And plus, it's not about money, most of the times people get access or ahold of lots of ES's ( either pretest more than a couple at a manufacturer and keep the best, or even receive 4-5-6-7-... E.S. from a manufacturer permanently without paying ).

 

p.s. Albrecht, if you want a good E8600, Q822A435... just msn me, unlike the Q3FE's/Q3QP's, you can buy a great second-hand E8600.

[Leeghoofd]

Well if I asked you to sell that 345 a few years back would you have done it ? these Super CPU's (if still alive) will also be up for grasps a while from now.

But then new stuff will be out that's again faster... don't you see the same trend repeating itself

Edited June 5, 2010 by Leeghoofd

[Hollywood]

My vote goes for the first option.

I rly don't mind if the top clockers, or anyone else, use ES hardware, cherry gfx or whatever.

To me it looks like this: I like to see whats possible and what the top guys can manage with that kind of hw.

I'll never be able to compete with the top guys. Even if i had plenty of ES hw.

It's the skill, wich keeps the top guys up there, not just cherry hw.

So, keep pushing the shit out of these kind of hardware!

 

Hollywood

[euklidis]

i have to go with the third... they can post them but with no points... I've said it before... you can't buy ES so easy, and if you find one it will already be tested

[Kal-EL]

My vote goes for the first option.

I rly don't mind if the top clockers, or anyone else, use ES hardware, cherry gfx or whatever.

To me it looks like this: I like to see whats possible and what the top guys can manage with that kind of hw.

I'll never be able to compete with the top guys. Even if i had plenty of ES hw.

It's the skill, wich keeps the top guys up there, not just cherry hw.

So, keep pushing the shit out of these kind of hardware!

 

Hollywood

 

If you were competing on a retail platform with no hardware support from manufacturers, you would care a great deal about improving the playing field. Its easy to sit back in the rankings and chalk it up to "Its great to see the great scores". But if you're getting close to the top end of the rankings with hopes of breaking into the top ten, you'd be pretty disheartened to continue while getting slapped around by ES chips you have no access to.

 

Sure you could ebay some reject ao's or find some black market dealer in Taiwan but odds are you won't get anywhere decent.

 

TO me, I see manufacturers investments in top tier overclockers for marketing purposes. Manufacturer after manufacturer looking for the next world record to market their wares. So they support their overclockers and support them well. This is awesome, we get to see wicked prototype hardware doing amazing things on Ln2.

 

I guess the question really boil down to:

 

Why do you submit benchmarks to hwbot?

[Patch]

Why do you submit benchmarks to hwbot?

 

Supes says it right there.

 

In the last year I've purchased gobs of retails and a few ES's from ebay. The best chips I've gotten have been lucky retails from a retailer. Every second hand chip has been a complete or relative dud, despite the advertised claims.

 

It's a myth that good ES's are available to anyone. Any ES on ebay has already been binned and rejected by someone else. And, you're not even supposed to buy em anyway.

 

Officially, ES chips are the property of the manufacturer. If they are going to be allowed on the bot, then Intel should open an account and get the points whenever a bench is submitted with one.

 

But hey, as long as they're accepted I'll keep trying to get em.

[Alriin]

I think it's not fair. So disallow them!

[Gautam]

It doesn't matter Bill. If you disallow ESes, there will just be corporate retail binning. It won't change a thing.

[BenchZowner]

It doesn't matter Bill. If you disallow ESes, there will just be corporate retail binning. It won't change a thing.

 

It does, partially though.

The best retail won't be as far as the E.S.'s are.

Plus, with some help of a golden hand aka tsan you can find a decent retail in 1-2 tries ( man tsan's the luckiest person I've ever met, just let him pick up the CPU/VGA for you... ).

 

I'd rather go 6.2GHz 3D vs 6.4-6.5GHz 3D than 6.2GHz vs 6.7GHz.

 

Corporate binning will always be here, but they don't get to test every chip that gets out of the production facility, and sometimes some of those are gems, real gems

[Hollywood]

It doesn't matter Bill. If you disallow ESes, there will just be corporate retail binning. It won't change a thing.

 

That's so true!

 

Btw, its not that easy to sit in the back of the rankings with no chance to get up.

I have spend thousands of euros over the last month for my overclocking hobby.

And that's what it is to me, a hobby.

Two GT's died on me within a few weeks. Several mainboards and graficcards as well.

It's not easy to effort the money for that, but i do, cause of the fun i have.

If you had a racingteam, with superior tyre manufacture, wich gives u an advance of a sec per lap,

and its within the rules, u would be mad if they would ban them.

I dont care about that. Ppl like me, and there are thousands, bench just for fun.

Fair or not, i would like to see the big numbers coming.

I said in in my first post within this thread; i would not be able to compete with the guys on top.

Even if i had ES hardware or not. And i rly thing that this counts for the most of benchers around the world.

This is just what i think. If others think diff, its okay to me.

To me, there is a bigger problem with cheating than with ES or non ES hardware.

 

 

best regards

[der8auer]

I've often asked to disallow ES CPUs in the past. So thanks for starting this poll

 

First i thought about "totally disallow them". But i've got no disadvantage if they are part of hwbot without points.

 

Just an example:

i7-965 retail CPUs are C0 stepping. But there are ES Samples in D0 stepping which clock much better than normal retail CPUs... So there is a real disadvantage for normal folks...

[Bobnova]

I am not a fan of ES stuff being on HWBot, when some people are getting free kilobuck cpus it's mighty hard to compete against them without a ton of money, and some ES stuff is simply untouchable by retail as mentioned before.

As manufacturers get more into OCing i expect to see more and more specially binned "ES" samples being sent to people. The more that happens, the less chance there is for a mere mortal to even get close to a WR, regardless of skill or money.

 

ES has no place on HWBot.

[Hollywood]

I've often asked to disallow ES CPUs in the past. So thanks for starting this poll

 

First i thought about "totally disallow them". But i've got no disadvantage if they are part of hwbot without points.

 

Just an example:

i7-965 retail CPUs are C0 stepping. But there are ES Samples in D0 stepping which clock much better than normal retail CPUs... So there is a real disadvantage for normal folks...

 

Sure it is, no doubt. But to be honest; do you rly think, that you could compete with the top guys if you had the same hw?

It's more than just the hw to take a top spot.

Ladies, this is just hwbot. And i dont say that in a bad way.

Benching and overclocking is a very big part in my life.

But there is much more than just that.

 

I'll try to give u another example: Take the Fermi slow cold bug. Some of the top clockers know how to handle it and take a huge advantage.

Most of us dont know how to get rid of that.

So, as most of us dont know how to manage big clocks with these cards, it should be banned?

There are plenty of great retail GT's out there.

To me, it doesnt make any diff: ES or retail binning.

 

best regards

 

Hollywood

[Alriin]

Yes Hollywood, i think a lot of People they have no Money can compete with the top guys.... Malkav as one... or Hardware King Turrican. I am a Noob and i am on Global Position 77 because i have a little bit more Money and more madness :-) respectively i have a LN2-Dealer close to my Home. But i never had a chance against Malkav or Turrican when i sit on the same Setup and must bench it. ;-)

[steponz]

I think there needs to be different classes... Probably the only way to seperate binned retails and es's.

 

pro/amateur/novice

 

Similar to golf or racing... Stipulations for each... I really don't see any other way.

 

Even with ES's gone.... binned manufacturer chips or cards are really just unfair..

 

A good question about ES chips... most of the guys who had 1 or 2 killed them and spent there own money on them... The pros probably got trays or them...

 

I think the real problem is the manufacturers.

[Mr.Scott]

to Me, There Is A Bigger Problem With Cheating Than With Es Or Non Es Hardware.

^^^This^^^

[Kal-EL]

So, as most of us dont know how to manage big clocks with these cards, it should be banned?

 

Hollywood

 

There is a great number of talented and knowledgeable overclockers out there more than capable of achieving those clocks with the same hardware. These same talented overclockers do not have the privilege of the cold bug fixed provided by some manufacturers and nvidia.

 

Don't sell yourself short on your potential. I'm 100% hobbiest and enthusiast but it doesn't mean I'm gonna like watching your average joe overclocker beat the guts outa his retail hardware just to be creamed by Gigabyte or MSI.

 

This is exactly whats happening, average joe's make up the majority of submissions at hwbot yet they are being pitted against insurmountable odds when competing directly against Manufacturer backed prototype hardware binned and designed to destroy world records.

 

Is hwbot participation completely and utterly about corporate competitive marketing or will there be a space for retail/average joe overclockers to excell?

[speddy411]

I really dont like it to see submissions made with ES HW.

 

Of course those Scores are sick and most of the Time current WR but its not fair against all those other guys who dont get sponsored by NVIDIA, INTEL and so on.

 

They dont have the opportunity to get a cherry-picked, fixed 980x or anything like that, so they cant reach (even if they got the know-how) those sick scores.

Edited June 5, 2010 by speddy411