The Poll: Allow E.S. or disallow ?

[Buckeye]

... you ... can ... make ... ES ... look ... like ... retail ...

 

Does everyone understand that the our entire knowledge of the ES sample is based on the "(ES)" indication in the CPU-Z software application? That's the ONLY clue we have when it comes to detecting ES in screenshots ... even FM links don't say ES or not.

 

Okay, if you understand this, then ...

 

Do you guys remember that AMD has made HIGH-LEAKAGE ES samples look like retail in CPU-Z?

 

Okay, if you remember this, then ...

 

1) We can only detect "ES" with CPU-Z

2) You can make CPU-Z see "non-retail" as "retail"

 

=> Remove ES = ???

 

 

Sorry I cant seem to get this quote thing to work right... I was trying to quote Massman here

http://hwbot.org/forum/showpost.php?p=59133&postcount=126

 

How ever that may be, if HWBOT say no ES allowed it will send a message to the manufactures about this issue.

 

Yes they can play there silly games like you say, but at least we can start makaing a path to clean this mess up that has been created with ES chips.

 

No one simple answer like No ES will not solve 100% of this problem, but it will show to the manufactures that we are getting tired of this ES game.

 

Then we fight the next battle that comes along. Which might be something like different leagues for manufactured supported people with all there special binning etc.

 

 

The main point that I gather from all this is avgerage joe, like myself cannot and will not compete the way it stands now.

 

Not that I am anything great at all but I saw long ago how tilted the whole thing is here with ES, Manufactured supported guys, secret high binned chips and secret hardware sharing going on. So I do not use HWBOT nor will I will until things get sorted out here.

 

I saw on another post on a different forum from a bencher who is also very frustrated, better to take the money spent on benching and buy a Harley, or better you life in some other fasion instead of play this tilted game.

[I.M.O.G.]

The way I see it hwbot.org is the best competition platform there is for the consumer PC hardware industry, despite its shortcomings like this thread highlights.

 

If you distill all the complaints and compliments, the bottom line is that most everyone competing is doing this for fun - even the people getting the ES chips are doing it because they like playing with hardware. The people complaining are more worried about their boints as they compare to someone else's than they should be, and they are losing sight of the fact this is fun even if the playing field isn't 100% level with scientific accuracy.

 

I voted for option 1 because in the end the boints are just numbers systematically assigned to give us something to compare eachother with and have more fun. If you want to compete with people at the top, you have to play the game a certain way and position yourselves the way those individuals have, simple as that... If you don't want to play the game that way, there are many other ways you can compete on hwbot and still have a lot of fun.

 

I definitely see the value in looking at ways to improve and standardize better, but I think massman and richbastard have struck a pretty good balance with the way things currently are. There will always be griefers regarding the details, but the way submissions have grown and subzero has exploded... That's a testament to the fact these guys are doing a lot of things right here and a lot of people are enjoying it. And to the griefers - if you guys motivate people to look for better solutions, in the long run you are helping move things forward too and thats great. Its good to better understand the perceptions people have and find whats important - if hwbot doesn't do it, someone else might. In the end tho, I think the right ingredients are here and they'll keep improving in the future as they have in the past.

 

So Props from Overclockers.com - I may not be an active bencher, but I have a lot of fun keeping track team OC Forums and watching them compete against the other teams and members around them. Thanks for the great platform to do it upon hwbot!

[Bobnova]

You can't prove or disprove that someone is getting sponsorship any more easily then you can prove or disprove that a CPU or GPU is an ES.

Either way it can be (easily) hidden by people that care enough. I think it's pretty obvious that the companies care enough.

 

Even with video, you can't be sure you're watching the right video, and who says the chip doesn't have a different, retail, heatspreader glued on?

 

FYI:

I can barely read the text on my e5200, ceramique and IC Diamond have polished it right off.

[KONAKONA]

We all love the crazy scores by skilled champions but it'd sure be nice to have some hope of competing somewhere.

 

QFT, it all boils down to this.

 

That said, I do think the advantage of ES chips is being a bit overstated, like they are some kind of magical gem chip. Some of them are nice clocking chips, but there are nice batch retails as well. I think this has been brought up before though. Looks like there was a big squabble over how to prove it is/isn't an ES chip as well. I don't see what's wrong with just a validated CPUz.

 

From what I've seen the only way to make things more competitive is to split things up in to small categories, but there has already been resistance from some of the more professional benchers (the whole global gold cup and world record argument). The only way to completely isolate skill would be to divide things down to the batch number of the chip and revision of the motherboard, ram, and cooling, which obviously is too far. I'm an advocate for furmark since a true 3D category would be a much welcome addition to the bot. Yes it has been known to kill cards, but that's already a given doing this kind of stuff, isn't it?

 

That's about all I have to say, time to watch the rest of this play out.

[Brolloks]

There seems to be a rather wide spread impression that ES CPU's are great and OC beasts, that is not true...you get more bad ones than good ones, I have had my share of ES chips and can attest to that. The golden ES ones you see breaking records on the bot are binned by people that have access to dozens of them, in that sense it makes it unfair imo, but you cannot ban ES chips just because of those instances.

[diezel]

the people vote .the people make hwbot

[kow_ciller]

The heavily sponsored guys need to be listed and marked in a separate division. As many have already stated, its pretty easy to figure out who gets parts for free and gets a chance to bin hardware. If someone works for a company or has the ability to bin components at the factory they should really be put in a separate league. Sure there isn't a way to be 100% certain that people wont cheat, its the exact same way that there is an honor system now to some extent and rules are broken now. It wont ever be 100% that people wont use ES processors/ video cards/ motherboards, but then again people share chips/ video cards going against the rules as it is now.

 

The bottom line is that hwbot needs to lay down the law with the manufactures. If they say "hey, we wont put up with your cheating bullshit" its less likely that they will break the rules for a little gain of saying they're at the top for a short while. If a company is caught aiding a cheater it could end up being a big PR problem amongst overclockers. It would be nice to see people not trying to find loopholes, but obviously that wont happen as long as there are people participating.

Edited June 7, 2010 by kow_ciller

[Patch]

ES or no ES, a separate league would suck.

 

Unless I'm invited. Give me binned CPU's and GPU's along with NVIDIA/ATI provided mod instructions and special BIOS versions.

 

Then see how a bumbling overclocking idiot does against the overclockers some of you assume have untouchable skills.

 

 

Manufacturers would never send me anything, though........

 

My services don't come cheap.

[TinTin@OCQQ]

Vote a poll for banning smoking for the whole planet, the result will be just like this because most people don't smoke! It is a meaningless vote!

 

With a ES, people still need spend tonnes of LN2, tweaking of the OS, techniques of overclocking, I don't see any difference. Or just because ES are better clocker? Many people get the ES are not free, including mine....!!

[hipro5]

Vote a poll for banning smoking for the whole planet, the result will be just like this because most people don't smoke! It is a meaningless vote!

 

ARE YOU FLUCKEN CRAZY??.......

Make a poll like this and I'll kill you with my bare hands......

[TinTin@OCQQ]

ARE YOU FLUCKEN CRAZY??.......

Make a poll like this and I'll kill you with my bare hands......

 

I do smoke too~

[BenchZowner]

@ TinTin@OCQQ

 

Wanna see how things are on the other side ?

Let's swap CPUs for a day, and we'll then see how you'll react and how easy you'll take it.

 

The message is very clear... maybe it's too bright for some people...

[TinTin@OCQQ]

@ TinTin@OCQQ

 

Wanna see how things are on the other side ?

Let's swap CPUs for a day, and we'll then see how you'll react and how easy you'll take it.

 

The message is very clear... maybe it's too bright for some people...

 

I also bench with retail i5 661, yes, not as good as ES. Seeing many good ES results, SPI 1M, 32M, Wprime32M, 1024M....etc. I didn't complain since it was just me not going to find the good ES.

[euklidis]

ES or no ES, a separate league would suck.

 

Unless I'm invited. Give me binned CPU's and GPU's along with NVIDIA/ATI provided mod instructions and special BIOS versions.

 

Then see how a bumbling overclocking idiot does against the overclockers some of you assume have untouchable skills.

 

 

Manufacturers would never send me anything, though........

 

My services don't come cheap.

 

That's why seperate leagues are good... get good scores in the amatures league may propably get you the ticket for the sponsored league

[uncle fester]

Wow interesting thread, do i think there is an unfair advantage with certain people having a tray of GEM ES cpu's well ofcourse.

Do i think HWBOT are going to do anything about it ..... no, im sure they have they're reason's.

As overclockers can we do anything about it ??? yes ofcourse we can have a bit of honour and stop ego tripping about how big our epeen is based on silly points and stop using AO ES cpu's.

Really at the end of day i don't care, i do what i do because i love doing it, even with retails i will push myself and aim to beat the big boys no matter what cpu they use. GEM Retails will come maybe CO/DO who knows.

 

Nothing personal Massman but you really come across as extremely stubborn and have only excuses why this proposal wouldn't work and not why it would, yes manufacturers may cheat with cpu-z but would the overclockers using them have no respect and only care about their ego ???? maybe they would but one day they would slip up and end up banned for life. Really people we have to moderate ourselves and not let stupid points or silly ranking by a website force us to cheat over each other.

 

Peace people.

We do this because we love it lets not make haters

________

Ford 999 History

Edited February 28, 2011 by uncle fester

[crio]

I voted for the Allow them as submissions without points option.

 

Tin what say aint correct.Anyone can get his hands on a pack of cigarettes and there are no special ES cigarettes.

On the other hands ES cpus are hard to find (first hand,not pretested second hand cpus that are probably degraded)

and most of em are given to Manufacturers or big OEMs to pretest their systems.

[nzaneb]

Can I get a poll to see if we can ban theses things.

 

It's not fair you have an ES cpu

It's not fair you have more money than me

It's not fair you won't tell me your tweak/s

It's not fair you won't tell me your mods

It's not fair I can't get LN2

It's not fair LN2 cost LOTs here

It's not fair I can't get X hardware here

It's not fair I can't bin hardware like you

 

But if you give me all the hardware, tell me all the mods and tweakes, let me download your OS, I'll kick your @ss!

 

 

What a Joke

 

My sentiments exactly. Keep it like it is.

[BenchZowner]

While we're at it, why don't we just preselect the top 10 ranking and assign a spot to preselected OCers.

You don't have the right to get past X.

Even if you lawfully surpass his score, your score will be ranked under his.

 

Works out for both ranking-addicts and the greedy manufacturers that lots of you beg up.

[Hardass]

Voted!

[Massman]

Tin what say aint correct.Anyone can get his hands on a pack of cigarettes and there are no special ES cigarettes.

 

Tin refers to a reason why this POLL is biased: there are more people who don't have an ES than people who do have an ES (just like there are more non-smokers than smokers). Because the group is a lot larger, it's likely that the outcome of the poll is affected by group size.

 

Compare it to this:

 

Group A = I like apples = 20 people

Group B = I don't like apples = 1000 people

 

Poll: should be remove apples from our shopping list?

 

Since Group B is larger, more people will vote to remove apples. Actually, in Belgium we have a law to prevent large groups to win voting over small groups. This is a known phenomenon

[hokiealumnus]

Wow. I got to page ten and my eyes were starting to bleed from the bickering.

 

Since everyone else is sharing their $.02, I'll do the same. I like bullet points, so here's my list:

 

*ES hardware is generally not any better than binned retails.

 

*Take ES away and you'll get binned retail in its place, whether it's the same individuals or different ones with access to retail binning that might not have access to ES chips.

 

*The top players are there because of their skill. The hardware might help, but most likely, those up top now will be up top regardless - because they're damn good overclockers.

 

*What happens when binned retail replaces ES at the top? Will there be a new poll to eliminate them?

 

*Say you eliminate the people that manufacturers help bin the hardware. Next up will be those that have enough money to buy a bunch of hardware and bin it themselves. So let's keep people with money out of the competition too.

 

*Person X has access to inexpensive / free LN2, but person Y can't get it for under $10/litre. Let's find the former and ban them...it's not fair!

 

*Where does it stop? How would you even enforce any of this?

 

This is a game. For most, it's a fun hobby. People will use the tools available to them to reach the top. I'd posit the ES chips are up top right now simply because the best benchers in the world used them. If you get rid of ES, the best benchers in the world will be right back there with retail hardware...because they're the best benchers in the world.

 

Quit going on a witch hunt for perceived hardware advantage. There will always be someone, somewhere with an advantage that someone else perceives to be unfair. Life is unfair. Get over it and go back to having fun benching!

[BenchZowner]

*ES hardware is generally not any better than binned retails.

 

We're not talking generally here, so be my guest and prove the following wrong by finding a 6.86GHz SuperPi 1M Core i7 980X and a 7.12GHz CPU-z validated retail Core i5 670.

 

*Take ES away and you'll get binned retail in its place, whether it's the same individuals or different ones with access to retail binning that might not have access to ES chips.

 

It has been mentioned a million times before, binning retails is much harder than binning ES's when it comes to finding a good chip asap.

Plus, the "mere" mortals have a chance of getting a competitive chip when everybody's playing with retails.

With the ES you have no chance to get "lucky" and find a retail as good as the top ES.

Don't know if an IQ higher than 60 is needed to understand this.

 

*The top players are there because of their skill. The hardware might help, but most likely, those up top now will be up top regardless - because they're damn good overclockers.

 

Nobody said they're not, but why are you excluding everybody else ?

Why don't the "top 3" win in live events or even get ranked at 7th or even lower place more or less ?

You're making it sound like there are 10 top OCers and the rest are noobs.

 

*What happens when binned retail replaces ES at the top? Will there be a new poll to eliminate them?

 

Nothing, because people complain about the ES and not about binning.

If somebody starts complaining about binning 99% of the community will tell him to suck it up.

 

Next please!

[Thor941]

We're not talking generally here, so be my guest and prove the following wrong by finding a 6.86GHz SuperPi 1M Core i7 980X and a 7.12GHz CPU-z validated retail Core i5 670.

 

 

 

It has been mentioned a million times before, binning retails is much harder than binning ES's when it comes to finding a good chip asap.

Plus, the "mere" mortals have a chance of getting a competitive chip when everybody's playing with retails.

With the ES you have no chance to get "lucky" and find a retail as good as the top ES.

Don't know if an IQ higher than 60 is needed to understand this.

 

 

 

Nobody said they're not, but why are you excluding everybody else ?

Why don't the "top 3" win in live events or even get ranked at 7th or even lower place more or less ?

You're making it sound like there are 10 top OCers and the rest are noobs.

 

 

 

Nothing, because people complain about the ES and not about binning.

If somebody starts complaining about binning 99% of the community will tell him to suck it up.

 

Next please!

 

Amen!

[hokiealumnus]

BZ, you are way out of line with your attacks man. I did nothing but post my opinion and you attack by implying my IQ is in the range of mentally retarded.

 

I'm not going to clutter up yet another page with bickering so I'll just respond to your points and begone.

We're not talking generally here, so be my guest and prove the following wrong by finding a 6.86GHz SuperPi 1M Core i7 980X and a 7.12GHz CPU-z validated retail Core i5 670.

Yes, you are talking generally because you're talking about introducing a rule that affects the whole of HWBot, not just those chips. Sure, ES samples might be better than retail for those two chips...ok. Why eliminate ES as a whole because of that?

 

How about finding an ES i7 920 from when they came out that beats a good retail D0? Top ten SuperPi 1M runs with a 920 are all D0. ES != better than retail all the time.

It has been mentioned a million times before, binning retails is much harder than binning ES's when it comes to finding a good chip asap.

Plus, the "mere" mortals have a chance of getting a competitive chip when everybody's playing with retails.

With the ES you have no chance to get "lucky" and find a retail as good as the top ES.

Don't know if an IQ higher than 60 is needed to understand this.

Really? Just because someone disagrees with your premise doesn't mean they are less intelligent than you. I fully understand what you're saying, but disagree with you. If everyone agreed, the world would be a boring place. Why can't we disagree without devolving into such vitriol.

 

Yes, retail binning is harder but not impossible or even improbable. It will replace ES binning if ES are disallowed, guaranteed. It will just take a little more time to get there.

Nobody said they're not, but why are you excluding everybody else ?

Why don't the "top 3" win in live events or even get ranked at 7th or even lower place more or less ?

You're making it sound like there are 10 top OCers and the rest are noobs.

I'm not excluding anyone and there are lots of overclockers that are far from noobs that aren't in the top ten or the top 100 or 1,000.

 

Perhaps the top three may not win at live events because they need more time to do what they do best - tweak the crap out of their OS / hardware. For some it takes days to get the top overclock, which is not possible at live events. Not to mention there's no binning at live events - you compete with what you get, which might be less than stellar.

 

But you know all of this, or at least you should.

Nothing, because people complain about the ES and not about binning.

If somebody starts complaining about binning 99% of the community will tell him to suck it up.

It's a slippery slope you're sliding down, that's all I'm saying.

[BenchZowner]

BZ, you are way out of line with your attacks man. I did nothing but post my opinion and you attack by implying my IQ is in the range of mentally retarded.

 

I fail to see where I said anything about your IQ.

 

Yes, you are talking generally because you're talking about introducing a rule that affects the whole of HWBot, not just those chips. Sure, ES samples might be better than retail for those two chips...ok. Why eliminate ES as a whole because of that?

 

Hello hello... is anyone knocking on my door...

We are talking about the 980X & 670 E.S.

Nobody would have a problem if the usage of those specific ES's gets disallowed but all the other ES's ( Wolfdales, Yorkfields, Pontiums ) remain as normal, ranked and with points awarded, since they're not any better than the retail parts.

 

Let me rephrase the poll for you:

 

Should HWbot do allow/disallow ( no points, or just have them without being awarded with points/cups/etc ) the 980X & 670 ES ?

 

Yes, retail binning is harder but not impossible or even improbable. It will replace ES binning if ES are disallowed, guaranteed. It will just take a little more time to get there.

 

Once again, retail binning isn't illegal, never was, never will be.

And it's not as hard as E.S. binning is for the people with no access to first hand ES hardware.

Are you trying to ignore this line or what ?

 

The rest are nonsensical, I won't waste my time explaining things you should know since you appear to be an experienced bencher, well aware of the situation and the community in general