The Poll: Allow E.S. or disallow ?

[BenchZowner]

I'm not the one posting crazy clocks and promising unseen clocks on retails too.

Plus I would be willing to do anything to prove any score of mine if asked.

[Kal-EL]

That could just as well include you as anyone else

 

I don't get it, you saying bz cheats or has the capacity to cheat or has cheated in the past?

[knopflerbruce]

I don't get it, you saying bz cheats or has the capacity to cheat or has cheated in the past?

 

No, I say it's just as likely that he cheats as anyone else if you can't prove it. Now he's saying high clocks on retail = cheat. BS! He'll ignore any result that doesn't fit with his theory, until there are 300 of them...

[Kal-EL]

That doesnt make sense, some people are cheaters and some arnt. Can't mash them up like potatoes and deal in absolutes. Only sith lords deal in absolutes.

 

Quite a bit of ignoring going on lately, if you can't auger the point, side step it and auger another point. Based on the premise that one fact if proven will prove all facts, flawed.

[knopflerbruce]

That doesnt make sense, some people are cheaters and some arnt. Can't mash them up like potatoes and deal in absolutes. Only sith lords deal in absolutes.

 

Quite a bit of ignoring going on lately, if you can't auger the point, side step it and auger another point. Based on the premise that one fact if proven will prove all facts, flawed.

 

If bencher A and bencher B have never been caught cheating, they have an equal possibility of being a cheater. That's my point.

[BenchZowner]

@knop:

 

Simply put, if it wasn't Andre, and I suddenly chime in and post a SuperPi 1M at 6.85GHz and a 3D Mark05 at 6.7GHz with a retail 980X, wouldn't most of you ( if not all ) be asking for proof ?

Come on, lie to me in my face

 

[ feel free to substitute my nick with another bencher's nick... be it Riska, be it Nosfer@tu, be it Evil Ananas, be it ryba, be it tapakah ]

...

[knopflerbruce]

@knop:

 

Simply put, if it wasn't Andre, and I suddenly chime in and post a SuperPi 1M at 6.85GHz and a 3D Mark05 at 6.7GHz with a retail 980X, wouldn't most of you ( if not all ) be asking for proof ?

Come on, lie to me in my face

 

[ feel free to substitute my nick with another bencher's nick... be it Riska, be it Nosfer@tu, be it Evil Ananas, be it ryba, be it tapakah ]

...

 

People can have a luck with a retail, well-known nickname or not. I don't think we've ever blocked users because they submitted scores that were too good for an unknown OC'er. We look at other things, proof of photoshop etc.

[BenchZowner]

I think you're wrong.

It might not be your fault, I think you weren't a result moderator in the past, were you ?

 

One relatively recent example ?

$@39@...

 

Don't waste your time, I have the msn log from my conversation with massman.

 

There are other examples from the past with a few people from other teams and countries, unfortunately I don't remember the details.

But, I'm not saying it's bad.

Every "weird" or "eyebrow-raising" result should be checked up and if things look naughty asking for more proof isn't a bad thing.

Unless you guys think it's fair to only ask some people for proof while others have immunity.

[Kal-EL]

If bencher A and bencher B have never been caught cheating, they have an equal possibility of being a cheater. That's my point.

 

If there are no other variables then sure flip a coin. Its overly simplistic to me.

 

Still don't get your point in how it relates to the discussion tho.

[Massman]

Massman I respect you, you are a good guy but some of the stuff you have said in this thread regarding voting statistics etc make no sense, why have a vote if the majority lose? I dont get that at all. whats the point in polls if the majority are overuled?

 

That sidenote was not about winning or losing, it's only to elaborate on how the voting systems can give a wrong impression. As Tin said: as there are more non-smokers than smokers, a vote on disallowing smoking will very likely end up against smoking. Possibly because it's the right way, but also possibly because there's a majority of non-smokers.

 

In this way, a group of people can always block another group of people, even if the outcome doesn't make sense. It's a similar bias of those who have a crazy ES voting yes and those who have 100 weak ES voting totally no.

 

A voting poll can always be used as guideline, but should not be used as tool to determine the path taken. If the latter was the case, you'd simply say "the mob knows best", which has been proven incorrect scientificly .

[Kal-EL]

That sidenote was not about winning or losing, it's only to elaborate on how the voting systems can give a wrong impression. As Tin said: as there are more non-smokers than smokers, a vote on disallowing smoking will very likely end up against smoking. Possibly because it's the right way, but also possibly because there's a majority of non-smokers.

 

In this way, a group of people can always block another group of people, even if the outcome doesn't make sense. It's a similar bias of those who have a crazy ES voting yes and those who have 100 weak ES voting totally no.

 

A voting poll can always be used as guideline, but should not be used as tool to determine the path taken. If the latter was the case, you'd simply say "the mob knows best", which has been proven incorrect scientificly .

 

Well that illustrates your point much better than all the dancing :banana::nana: , it seemed for a while your point was to just ignore all aspects of the poll. I chalked it up to sword fighting syndrome.

[knopflerbruce]

I think you're wrong.

It might not be your fault, I think you weren't a result moderator in the past, were you ?

 

One relatively recent example ?

$@39@...

 

Don't waste your time, I have the msn log from my conversation with massman.

 

There are other examples from the past with a few people from other teams and countries, unfortunately I don't remember the details.

But, I'm not saying it's bad.

Every "weird" or "eyebrow-raising" result should be checked up and if things look naughty asking for more proof isn't a bad thing.

Unless you guys think it's fair to only ask some people for proof while others have immunity.

 

One thing is to ask about a submission, another is to ban the user for submitting it. What you call a "weird" result is usually "weird" because of crazy efficiency or something like that, not because of the name it was submitted under. Hell, I never touched a Wolfdale before my E8700 at 6.7Ghz... no-one accused me of anything then.

 

If there are no other variables then sure flip a coin. Its overly simplistic to me.

 

Still don't get your point in how it relates to the discussion tho.

 

I don't see that there are many other variables, tbh. We catch cheaters who submit "bad" scores, too, it's not limited to the ones who have 500+ boints;)

 

It's not really relevant to the discussion,so I guess it's time to stop arguming about that. I just made a point about one of Bill's posts a couple of pages ago.

[BenchZowner]

I never said "ban a user with a weird or just very good score", neither said "Ban Andre if he posts a 6.85GHz Pi1m with a retail 980X".

What I said is, just like you can doubt a user's result, the same applies to Andre and any member/OCer.

And since, there's none retail 980X out there running SuperPi 1M at 6.7GHz+ I don't think it's unreasonable to have doubts about a result, no matter who the overclocker that got it is.

[icebob]

This is getting ridiculous, bench what you have, period. If I go to the drag strip and whoop everybody's arse cause Crane sent me a "special" set of camsharf, should be banned for that? You will never hear any complain about that, just a nice job man! If you want to have more "special" stuff, then just work harder and be consistent, make contact and shoot should happen. It's a competition dude, get everything you can have to win it. When you go to a drag strip you can get slapped on the back of the head if you try to look under the hood! Isn't that what we are doing? drag racing computer? The only thing we can do is work harder, bench more often and hope some door will open, crying about how the world is unfair will not open doors....

[Splave]

Umm i have to say LOL this guy i have brought several AO samples from him and everyone was a DUD they are all pre binned when i first contacted him he was telling me he is good friends with Andre and Nickshih and is a TOP overclocker- message him yourself he will tell you same thing

Exactly! he told me he has lunch with Shammy weekly rofl

 

 

That sidenote was not about winning or losing, it's only to elaborate on how the voting systems can give a wrong impression. As Tin said: as there are more non-smokers than smokers, a vote on disallowing smoking will very likely end up against smoking. Possibly because it's the right way, but also possibly because there's a majority of non-smokers.

Yes but can the same be said for voting for john mccain or barrack o'bama? If more people like o'bama then o'bama will win right? Tis the nature of voting, its done to tally the masses to make a decision!

 

 

PS I think we should still allow hipro to smoke because he is a legend and my favorite person for the 480 bios

[BenchZowner]

<== moved all his runs with any kind of "sponsored" hardware or E.S. hardware to non-ranked...

 

Let's see who's who...

 

As for the "manufacturer interference" it's up to the sponsored/overclockers to control, or even turn down.

[$@39@]

People vote in order to change things. Nobody can prove the opposite!!! How can somebody think that he can? Wake up!!! Mass is there anything that discourages you from making a dicision? If you have allready dicided just let us know and not continuing this thread.

[Massman]

There's always been the intention to decrease/remove manufacturer influence in amateur rankings. This also never has been said otherwise.

 

Removing (points from) ES tomorrow is just not the solution we're looking for ...

[$@39@]

Yes of course it's not a solution but it's a first step. Otherwise making a different league for sponsored and non-sponsored o/cers is something that in my opinion is better because people who have beasts ES's won't have to hide them or cheat with cpuz and also companies will continue the sponsorship and advertisement of their products

[uncle fester]

Wait Massman your basing the whole not reason for not removing points from ES samples is that people will just cheat CPU-Z. Do you have no faith or trust in overclockers ??? one or 2 might but would be caught out and why would they do that , do they have no honour or respect and only care about how big their ego and epeen is ??

________

BUY MAGIC FLIGHT LAUNCH BOX

Edited February 28, 2011 by uncle fester

[BenchZowner]

The CPU-z excuse is indeed a lame excuse, sorry I had to say that.

 

Just like somebody with an ES can cheat and make the ES appear as a retail, the same way a guy with a retail or any random CPU can fake CPU-z and the accompanying screenshot to pretend that he has a 6.5GHz E.S. for example...

[Massman]

Uncle,

 

No, not entirely of course. The logic behind "removing ES from the rankings now is not a good solution" is based on more than just one argument.

 

1) Our notion of 'ES' is based on the detection by CPU-Z, hence the applicability of the rule is relative to CPU-Z's capability to detect it

2) There is no way to detect VGA ES samples through GPU-Z

3) Introducing the 'ES forbidden' rule means removing them across the board, including Yorkfield, Wolfdale, Conroe and older as we want consistent rules

4) Removing the ES mid-game in unfair to those who have spend a month's paycheck or more on trying to acquire one

5) It doesn't solve the underlying issue of marketing-related overclocking scores dominating amateur rankings.

 

Furthermore, for the 980X, the issue is the difference in stepping rather than the difference between ES and retail. I think no one cares about the B1 ES samples as they are a lot worse than the current average retails.

 

Also, it's not about trusting or having faith in the overclocking community (I reckon whoever lost faith earlier will have gained loads of it seeing Hipro5 share the coldslow), but rather experience. If there are two things I've learned from X years of HWBOT it's that a) people will go very far to have an edge over the competition and b) people will consider people cheaters for the slightest oddity in submissions/scores/explanation. This means that IF it's possible to get ES's to look like retail and it gives an edge, people will do it and even if no one would do it, people would accuse people of doing it. A good example of this is the assumption by someone that any 6.7GHz retail shown by AndreYang will not actually be retail.

[BenchZowner]

Just a question Pieter,

how exactly do you know that one of the guys with AquaMark 3 runs ( for example ) with a 6.6GHz++ E.S. are indeed real and not photoshopped mipmap runs ?

[|ron]

Uoh, what a big topic...

So, when the discussion goes enormous, it's better to try to do an abstract of the points :

- who has dozens es to try, will surely find a monster cpu (we have seen in the past that this is not a thing that cuts out everybody, but almost all yes... for example in i7-975 category, stummerwinter got a monster cpu that could beat even the es, my friend Fogna in E8600 category got a retail cpu that could beat almost everything etc...). For a company, giving someone 50 ES cpus, is different to give him 50 retail cpus... the ESs are not going to be sold, the Retails yes, so maybe a there will be a little difference in "brands gifts".

- let's consider the time factor: who has a bunch of ESs, starts to take confidence, to do research, to understand limits and problems of a platform, months before that all the other clockers... so, when everything goes finally on sale, you're competing with people that have tons of backup screens, continuosly receives support from the brands and have also much more time from a generation to the next one to fine tune everything.

 

So, let's take a look at HWBOT mission Statement: http://hwbot.org/article/news/info

As you can read "HWBOT aims to turn overclocking from a hobby into a worldwide, competitive sport. Just as any sport, we think this should be divided into a professional and amateur league.

 

The continuous “overclocker league†is the amateur league. Anyone can join, and become noticed by achieving a high rank. Currently you will not get into the top 100 without extreme cooling (LN2) and knowledge.

 

Officially recognized competitions will be the “professional†league"

 

So... a division is already written in the statement, a bit vague a think... let's do a comparative between Formula1 and Hwbot: in F1 there are rules and limits decided by the Chiefs, to let the partecipating teams compete on a rather equal point of start...

Ferrari, McLaren, Renault have an advantage, represented by HUGE fundings for R&D... so that is why they usually dominate the rankings, in the decades.

Removing the funding-cap available per season, will result in a non-competition situation, with Ferrari that could spend in R&D about 100 times the amount that a small firm can afford.

I think that rules are quite fair... Ferrari continues to do VERY fast cars because, even with the funding-limit, they have a better know-how, experience, better engineers etc... but even Ferrari make mistakes, infact in the last years they dropped down, due to bad choices... if there was no limits, they could have all the ways to develop other technologies, spending a small nation GDP, mantaining the lead and annihilating the "enemies".

 

To report all into our overclocking world... the only way for a good skilled clockers not supported by anybody to compete against kingpin and andreyang (just an example) is that them will get both fired by evga and intel respectively?

 

I prefer the other way: ES allowed but getting no points... the WRs will be probably continue to be done by using ESs and they still earn the respect and ammiration fo the whole community, but the points will be earned only where everybody can compete with hardware you can buy (no, a 980x ES sold at 2.000euros isn't something that the 95% of the clockers can buy).

You are a rich guy and you can buy 10 retail 980x? Whoa, you're a lucky guy, but maybe you have to spend a lot to find the monster one... maybe I can buy only one 980x but a very good one at the first choice! So it's luck vs. luck.

 

Allowing the ESs is Certainty vs Lucky.

 

For me, ES allowed, with no points earned from them.

[Jor3llBR/Elano]

Just a question Pieter,

how exactly do you know that one of the guys with AquaMark 3 runs ( for example ) with a 6.6GHz++ E.S. are indeed real and not photoshopped mipmap runs ?

 

There is no way you can guarantee that BenchZowner and that's starting an entire new argument, take 1x AQ3 2nd place for instance, the jpg is so heavily cropped and edited that you can barely see the scores compared to all the other AQ3 screens...

 

That's why HWBot.org ban when they spot a cheater, they will fall someday.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Jor3llBR
wr broken now 2nd place...