Should HWBot be divided into a two class structure?

[BenchZowner]

Those of you who "bench for fun", are you willing to have all your results point/hwboint-less ?

Who needs personal & team rankings when he only bench for fun ?

[mega_option101]

Divide them please

[Brian y.]

 

There's a thin red like between allowing the manufacturers to use and enjoy the benefits of HWbot and allowing the manufacturers to interfere and in the end control HWbot and its rankings.

 

While I agree with this to an extent IMO the one who submits these "manufacture" results should of taken the responsibility in regards to checking the "do not participate" box.

If you check this, this submission will not receive cups, medals or points. It will appear in no ranking except for the HWBOT WORLD RECORDS page. You can use this if you use hardware which is not available through retail channels (eg. cherry picked samples, ES, hardware under NDA, etc).

They are the valid current WR's at the moment and they deserve to be on hwbot as these scores had to be produced(earned) and they are awesome in every right, but there is no reason why they should of affected the point system. IMO splitting up the league is not the answer here. In the end the league(s) itself will only be as good as the members that participate in it. Unfortunately this is the one variable that in the end will dictate to the overall success/failure of the league IMO.

[Patch]

K404 mentioned the only real valid reason for splitting: to let people bench ES chips without people griping.

 

Problem is that this pro league will need to be formed in one of 2 general ways.

 

1) Competition/qualifying based on points or some other metric. This won't fix the problem AT ALL. Contrary to common belief, a whole bunch of "sponsored" folks won't make the cut and will continue to muck up the "amateur" ranks.

 

2) Assemble the ranks by "invitation" or designation only - based on someone's perception of skill or by manufacturer support level. Sort of like a lot of "open" manufacturer sponsored competitions are run now. This method is just stupid.

[K404]

Welll.... its hard to compete against people who have everything given to them- multiple samples of each, to find the best gear. A reasonable % of them dont even need to pay for all the LN2.

 

IMHO... as someone mostly on the outside of what im about to say.... if you have a stack of parts and they were all free.... its easier to take chances. "Y'know what.... i'm gonna try 1.5vTT on this 980X" Its hard to compete with that when all the parts come out of the monthly pay packet and you're hoping the resale value will be alright.

 

There is more to a Pro league than reducing the flame-fest over use of ES.

 

 

 

 

Heading into the very-unlikely-to-happen route... it would be great if amateur could be split up a bit based on cooling. Theres hundreds of guys on air/water.... cant compete against the LN2 guys, irrespective of sponsors. I would say that affects more people than the ES arguement.

Edited June 10, 2010 by K404

[romdominance]

Some great thoughts here thus far. I don't think that there is an effective way to create a pro class. This separate class system would cause more debate and finger pointing than exists already. It really would serve only to make people feel better about there standings, all in the call for more "fair" competition. We all really know how we would be classified, but how many would stand up to the plate and openly admit it? What purpose would it serve to divide the leaders in overclocking into a pro league, really? Sounds divisive to me and really doesn't solve anything.

 

What if instead of moving points and people, not rewriting algorithms but simply changing the colors of peoples user names to denote there status in the league. If you openly work for/or regularly with a manufacturer, your name would be in green (because we are all green with envy lol) denoting that you are in the "manufacturers" class. If you are sponsored or consider yourself a pro, your name could appear in red to denote you are in the sponsored/pro class. Then the novice/retail guys could hang in with the blue.

 

I don't think you should penalize someone for great results or pathfinding thru undiscovered tech. If an overclocker has worked their ass off and been rewarded through sponsorship or a contract, then I say "well done". He can be acknowledged as a pro without suffering a penalty for it. The way I see it, if we are serious about our overclocking, we want to surpass the sponsored/pro anyway, so what difference do boints or a separate league make? The odds seem insurmountable sometimes, but we all do the best with the hardware available to us. If a guy has huge product support and free LN2, I personally don't feel so bad coming in below him. I love working with my team and being a member of the retail army.

 

No need to separate the results or points. We would all just know what the score is and continue on with the battle for better benches.

[El Gappo]

Welll.... its hard to compete against people who have everything given to them- multiple samples of each, to find the best gear. A reasonable % of them dont even need to pay for all the LN2.

 

IMHO... as someone mostly on the outside of what im about to say.... if you have a stack of parts and they were all free.... its easier to take chances. "Y'know what.... i'm gonna try 1.5vTT on this 980X" Its hard to compete with that when all the parts come out of the monthly pay packet and you're hoping the resale value will be alright.

 

There is more to a Pro league than reducing the flame-fest over use of ES.

 

 

 

 

Heading into the very-unlikely-to-happen route... it would be great if amateur could be split up a bit based on cooling. Theres hundreds of guys on air/water.... cant compete against the LN2 guys, irrespective of sponsors. I would say that affects more people than the ES arguement.

 

I've kept my mouth shut thus far in these debates because although I like the idea I can't see it working. There are many flaws in the es argument, one being that AMD do not even mark their es samples clearly and they aren't recognizable in cpu-z screens etc. People lie.. But your unlikely-to-happen comment made my brain fart;

 

What if there was a separate points system that showed up on your profile like globals do but were awarded for "fastest retail sample" or "fastest dice run" "fastest air run" etc? Not effecting overall points or team points because it's to easy to cheat, just points to take pride in. It would be nice for users like myself that cannot get ln2 but still pride themselves on getting the highest results in a given cooling category or on a certain stepping Maybe not even points, just a medal or cup.

 

I think rev 3.5 was a step in the right direction allowing you to search for the highest cooling results. Maybe add retail and es to the filter options also?

 

There are plenty of ways to do it without splitting up the community. Who wants to be king of the amateurs? =/

________

Creampie Granny

Edited May 13, 2011 by El Gappo

[K404]

Its not enforceable, thats the thing. Im maybe speaking out of turn, but Massman was/is right. Theres such a crossover between air and water temps/ MHz, it would be a massive headache to enforce. Norwegian/Russian winter air/ water? Compressor-chilled water? Johnnys LN2 liquid chiller? Aircon? If theres points and medals, someone might cheat or bend the rules to dominate a leaderboard

 

 

I'd happily be king of amateurs. Means I dont have to worry about all the company contacts I dont have and I can still be towards the top of the leaderboard

[El Gappo]

How about if you lie you're banned lol.

 

I do think a compulsory tick box for es/retail should be added for submissions along with the filter option. I'll just keep my fingers crossed to amd es bashers do not lie..... yeah right

 

If it's just a filter option the way cooling and core selection is now with no leader board without actively searching for it there would be less incentive to cheat it.

________

Tdr 250

Edited May 13, 2011 by El Gappo

[PizzaMan]

I like the idea of amateurs striving and benching their brains out to earn the right to be a pro. The pro league shouldn't be limited to just 'manufacture sponsored' benchers either, but all 'manufacture sponsored' submissions should be in the pro league. Pro's should be able to submit as amateur if they are not currently benching with sponsored hardware. I also think all LN2 submissions should be considered pro. So this kind of leans me towards El Gappo's post. Maybe instead of pro vs amateurs, we have cooling solutions vs each other. Air is air, regardless if it's chilled or not. Same for water, chilled/ambient same class. Yes, people will cheat. This is unfortunate. Let their consonance hold them.

 

So maybe a triple point system, hardware, global, & cooling. Then give ES's a drop down box with a choice between 'retail' and 'ES', so they are not scored against retail hardware. This would make ES points lower, but they would still be good purchases for WRs.

 

Just some thoughts. I'm still a little mixed about all this. It's not an easy problem with an easy solution.

[BenchZowner]

Or just drop the points ( on everything ) and it's all done

[K404]

I dont entirely disagree with that, Bill. Rev 3 changed the categories that people focussed on. 15 points max for the popular hardware categories... the only people who benched were the people interested in it. Now theres been a new flurry of submissions based on the new, more graded popularity... with more points.

[skierkid450]

I agree with going by cooling, but the only way to enforce that(or easily be able to tell) would be forcing temperature apps running for the screenshots(and forcing screenshots too, i still see a lot of new submissions that do no provide screenshots which is disappointing as I personally use HWBot submissions as performance comparisons from GPU to GPU, CPU to CPU as that is what they are, when you can tell what cooling is used. recently I looked through the 3dm Vantage(CPU score) i7-9,i7-8,i5-7,i5-6,i3,C2D,C2Q,AII X2,PII X2,AII X4,PII X4,PII X6 submissions searching for 4GHz runs or close to it just to see how the scores scaled architecture to architecture, or Intel to AMD and based my purchases and suggested routes for friends solely on my findings, that and discovered HT is and has always been an additional half-core performance wise...) a submission shouldn't be able to be done without a screenshot, plain and simple for anyone

 

could have air cooling/water be the standard as there isnt really a huge difference in temperatures between high end air and most water because, well both are dependent on on ambient room air temperature, its all efficiency past that.

 

then you have the serious categories, phase change/refrigeration/cascade/Dry Ice/LN2+ all of which are at least consistently below freezing(granted yes, if you live in the far north you can dependably have temps below 32F/0C outside during winter months but we're not talking any colder than -10F really whereas you take cascade or dice even which are still significantly lower than that)

 

[points-wise]

have the global points listing where everything is still together, but have a sub ranking for below zero cooling or above which are independent of eachother, but the above freezing category would be scaled to gain more points since there are far more results above freezing than below(right?), not to mention air would not gain much of anything from the global points where below freezing would take the majority of their points(and have a temp. app like coretemp running, or require a photograph of the system if coretemp does not function at the current temperature to keep the dice or cascade guys out of the aircooling category(a LOT of people forget to change it off air, so you see lots of guys on "Air cooling" at 5GHz...))

 

-from a user with 123 submissions that get points, and 104 of those submissions gain .1 ea. yes, I bench above freezing-and i also get some hardware for review, but have purchased all motherboards and CPUs and most of my GPUs and all cooling. -getting peripherals and cases dont help overclocking too much

[knopflerbruce]

I've ran alot of stuff on air, and I usually end up getting a few points here and there:confused: It's definately possible to get points on basic air/water cooling. Yes, you need subzero to get top spots (normally), but why is that such a bad thing? A cheap pot and some LN2 isn't that expensive, at least not in the US. In the end, you choose cooling method yourself. Lower temps = better scores, but it's also more risky and difficult when you have to start insulating and psh voltages through the roof - but that's what this game is about

[skierkid450]

I've ran alot of stuff on air, and I usually end up getting a few points here and there:confused: It's definately possible to get points on basic air/water cooling. Yes, you need subzero to get top spots (normally), but why is that such a bad thing? A cheap pot and some LN2 isn't that expensive, at least not in the US. In the end, you choose cooling method yourself. Lower temps = better scores, but it's also more risky and difficult when you have to start insulating and psh voltages through the roof - but that's what this game is about

 

well cheap for one person is pricey for another, my most powerful video card is a GTX 260-216 i got for $150, which is also the most i've ever spent on a single part too(until 1055T which i'll afford in another week or two)(my H50 will last me until AMD replaces the AM2/AM3 socket with something entirely new)

 

to get my locked(15.5x) Phenom II X2 up to 4.2GHz on air i was pushing 1.7 volts and was proud that i could get that high with the chip being a locked version compared to everyone else's Black's as i had the highest C3 next to chew who is up at 6590MHz

[Massman]

Splitting points up based on cooling is a very nice idea in theory, but in practice just not possible. Software temperature read-outs are oh so cheatable and not at all a good verification tool.

[chuchnit]

^ this. You can calibrate the temp programs to read what you want.

[BenchZowner]

There's an expensive and community based solution to split the categories by cooling type, but it'll still kinda be based on the "honor system".

Only live sessions watched by at least 5 independent/moderation people can be put in a cooling category ( or proven by watching the live stream video on livestream ).

I'm quite sure people will start saying "I don't have a camera or web camera" ( I LOL especially at the latter part of the excuse )... but it's one of the things that can be done irl.

[SF3D]

There is no point in cooling categories or giving points based on cooling methods.

 

What difference does it make, which cooling have been used during some benchmark. Like in Finland we have -30C° on winter and +30C on summer. If you bench in a shed, how do you compare those aircooled results. In watercooling category I could use my chiller, which can do all temperatures between +30C° to -35C°

 

But if I have got these ideas somehow wrong, tell me what was the real deal. I might have missed some posts in a hurry.

[romdominance]

No your on it SF3D. This conversation seems to have evolved into the dumbing down of hwbot. It is counter-productive to penalize members for taking their oc to the uber level (separate cooling classes? 8P ), isn't that what its all about? If you want to segregate sponsored/manufacturer members, do it in such a way as to identify them, but not penalize them. We need to see what these components can do in the right hands with unlimited resources...gives us a target and motivates us.

[PizzaMan]

Splitting points up based on cooling is a very nice idea in theory, but in practice just not possible. Software temperature read-outs are oh so cheatable and not at all a good verification tool.

 

You don't need any kind of verification for cooling. The OC its self should be enough to tell a difference. If you see someone claiming to benchmark a CPU at 6Ghz on water or air, you know they're lying. If someone submits something questionable, request a system pic.

 

If you worry to much about if something is 'cheatable' or not, you'll never be able to make any changes. There will always be someone out there willing to lie, cheat, and steal. Doesn't mater how well you think the rules are played out, people will find a way around it. It's like the whole hardware sharing rule. How is that enforceable? How was that ruled as a 'not so cheatable' action that could enforced? I find it would be easier to tell if someone is lying about cooling than it is tell if someone is using shared hardware. Your 'so cheatable' point seems null to me.

[knopflerbruce]

The problem is that in this case it's too easy to cheat, plus it's really hard to determine what's fair and what's not. Siberian winter vs Arizona desert temps? You run on air in -50c environments, that's within the definition of air cooling, but in reality it's even better than phase change.

[Deanzo]

I'm quite sure people will start saying "I don't have a camera or web camera" ( I LOL especially at the latter part of the excuse )... but it's one of the things that can be done irl.

 

Well to give you a good laugh...

 

I don't have a web camera.

 

I mean that, I really, really don't

 

 

Camera, yes. Video my benching, sure do it all the time...easy.

But 99% of my online benching friends live in other time zones, so what good is a web camera to me.

[BenchZowner]

for Livestream recordings, video on demand

[Monstru]

35 oC ambient here now in the summer. I do not have air conditioning so I bench in my underwear and nothing more. Sure you wanna see me live? =)) =)) =))