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I did some testing with Win 8 Dev Prev a while ago. It did improve the 2D Transparent Windows scores quite a bit, but some (most) of the other sub-tests were hurt by it.

The mouse tweak works on ATI cards as well. The results below are on my "fully bloated and underpowered" daily driver PC. I've been able to squeeze 12K+ out of that setup with the proper OS and OC. No mouse movement Slow mouse movement (Like a cat) Fast mouse movement (Like a mad-man)

I understand that Sweet... My point is that if we start to go down the path of ditching benchmarks because the tweaks start to become too difficult to manage/identify... Who's to say that other benchmarks will not go out the same door in the future? My examples of LOD and BIOSes may have not been the best, but the idea is there... Just because a benchmark can be tweaked in ways that are hard to manage/spot doesn't mean that it should be thrown out. In my opinion; it means that people should work harder at finding those "hard to find" tricks to get the most out of the bench.

Scott... That post was not aimed at you man. I have nothing against you. I agree with you on what you say about loopholes not being tweaks. I agree with you on most of your argument actually... The one thing I don't agree with you on is the "let's ditch it" part; I'll explain my train of thought. If we say that PCM05 should be ditched because it's too hard to moderate and because it is too hard to separate tweaks from cheats; what happens next? Do we ban GPU BIOS edits for better 3D scores because they are impossible to spot? Do we ban the special "REX BIOS" that makes for much more efficient SPi runs because the moderators can't tell who's using it and who's not? Do we ban LOD for 06? My argument here is that if we start down this path, the time may come when "NO TWEAK" is allowed... And what fun would that be? You are entitled to your opinion and I respect it, but I am entitled to mine as well. I recognize that I, sometimes, come across a bit antagonistic, but trust me... My posts are in no way attacks on anyone in particular.

I don't see this as an issue of tweaks... It's an issue of whether one uses something that has been forbidden in the rules (SW RAM Disks or not). It's already been shown that when one puts enough time/effort/money into the storage part of the bench great results can be had. That's not a tweak; that's someone going out and buying the HW needed to compete... I go back to the 3D benches... Are we going to outlaw voltmods/franken cards/TiNed cards/Shammied cards simply because not everyone "knows" how to get such things done? Are we going to throw out Vantage because people don't have access to Untochables addon cards? Or because they don't have the experience and knowledge that the top dogs have? I don't think that ignorance (read as "not knowing about a tweak") is not enough of a reason to get all up in arms about it. And believe me when I tell you; if I ever find a "tweak" that gets me 100+ webpages/s in PCM05; I am NOT going to come out and blabber it to everyone. Or are we going to ask everyone that spends time looking for tweaks that give them an edge to reveal their hard work for everyone? I'm sorry, but the fact that someone doesn't know a tweak doesn't make IT illegal... It just means that those that don't know it have not spent enough time with the bench to find it. This is not elementary school where every kid gets a trophy whether they win or not. We're all adults here and those that put more time and effort into it are the ones that get the rewards.

LOL.... Is this what we're coming to? If it wasn't run at stock speeds and on old IDE HDDs it needs to be reported.

Please don't take this as an attack on you Scott... I don't know you so I would never even think of attacking you, but to me, all that sounds like "All my scores got made irrelevant by people that found new tweaks and used them so I want their scores gone; even if it means mine are gone too"... Can't tell what's real? Fine; picture requirement. Problem solved. If someone is going to claim that they ran four MAX IOPS in RAID0 to get those HDD scores; let them show proof. Just like MTech and SteveRo do; you can see their storage setups on every submission. I know this benchmark has a bunch of holes in it, but so do a lot of others... I don't think there is a benchmark on the Bot that can't be tweaked to achieve higher scores. So where do we stop? Do we remove 01 because you can trick better scores out of it with "modded" BIOSes? Do we remove 06 because you can get better scores out of it with LOD? Do we remove Spi? They are all tweakable, they are all open to "illegal" tweaks that would be super hard to spot too. Or do we go to HWBot created wrappers for every benchmark where the thing runs on "pre-determined" settings chosen by the HWBot staff and no one is allowed to run them in any other way? I just don't see it happening that way man. As much as some people may not want to admit it; the Bot is a site where we compete against each other; and where there is competition there will always be people looking for a way to be better than the next guy. I say; make it clear what's legal and what isn't legal and then let us play. Picture of the HW and there should be a piece of paper with used ID and date visible on the picture. Like most people use when they are selling HW at any of the boards. If you have a camera that can take pictures so you can sell your chips, you can use that same camera to take pictures when you bench. I don't know about anyone else, but my camera is always on my desk, next to my PC when I bench.

I'm in for option 2. PCM05 is my favorite benchmark because its "tweakability". Even before the "new tweaks" were allowed; I used to spend hours upon hours just testing out different settings on IE, different LOD numbers, etc. I found some tweaks that had never been mentioned before, I ran into obscure tweaks on sites in languages I could not read... And at the end of the day; when I applied all those tweaks, I was able to improve upon my previous scores. Things got even better when the newly approved tweaks came about. Here's my take on this... The rule about SW RAM Disks has been in place since I joined and it was a generally agreed upon rule. So what has changed from then to today that there is such an uprising with RAM Cacheing? I may not know much about that technology, but it sounds to me that it is just fancy words for a SW RAM Disk and that's not allowed. So PCM05 is more tweakable than other benches, live with it... Just because some people don't have the means to be able to get the kind of HW that is needed to compete in a benchmark doesn't mean that those that can should not be allowed to play. If that's the case; every 3D benchmark that benefits from "modded" BIOS files and "franken-TiNd" GPUs should be thrown out too. I know I could never compete with Vince in Vantage (simply because I don't have access to his resources and knowledge), but that doesn't mean that the fact that he runs 4 x 580s that have been under the TiN treatment should be reason for me to bitch about his "inflated" scores. I simply nod and Ohhh and Ahhh when I see them posted and wonder about how nice it would be to be able to play with all his toys. I guess what I mean is... "Stop stomping on the poor dead horse"... PCM05 is there for those that are willing to make the investment in HW to max it out and for those willing to spend countless hours scouring over registry files looking for a way to make IE load faster. Just because some of you can't afford the HW to compete, or don't have the time to search for tweaks doesn't mean that the rest of us shouldn't get to play the game.

Hell yeah! 7970 Laying down the law on Heaven-X. Git'r done!.....

I have a feeling that come Jan 9th there's gonna be a mad dash for 7970s everywhere...

On a lighter note. Christian did kind of warn us about this. See post #16. I can't help but picture him; sitting at his home looking at us "lemmings" struggle against each other for the past couple weeks... It must have been quite entertaining to him to see OCF and OCN trade blows all this time; all the while, he knew he had this in the bag and we were basically fighting for second place.

I get what you're saying. I just hope that the rule gets clarified to avoid these situations in the future.

Not quite. Rejected CPUz validations happen on many other AMD sockets and it has nothing to to with stability. It has happened to me in the past, even before CPUz implemented the 3s delay on validations. It has to do with the way HTRef fluctuates on AMD boards and the way CPUz checks the frequency for validation. Ambiguous rule is ambiguous is all I can say about this one. Valid link can easily be interpreted as having a url that links to an existing submission. I think that is how it is being enforced actually because if it weren't we'd have a lot of the newer FX submissions get taken out of the rankings due to their being "rejected" by CPUz. Please, don't see my replies as any attempt at antagonizing any teams here. I just want clarification of the rules that apply.

That's the part I don't get. AFAIK there is no rule that says that validation must be accepted by CPUz for it to be submittable for competition. I thought the same rules for normal CPUz submissions applied; therefore, my question. I understand the underlying basis of why it was questioned; I just did not see any rules stating that explicitly.

And on your first chip.

I don't get it... CPUz validations in RED get submitted/accepted all the time. We all know it happens quite regularly with AMD and more so now that CPUz has the time delay on validation. Why is this, all of a sudden, a big issue?

I knew that Vaseline stuff reminded me of a movie; could not think of which one until now! Congressman Dilbeck: You've never covered yourself with Vaseline? Erb Crandal: No, no, not unless I have third degree burns, no. Congressman Dilbeck: You don't know what you're missing. I've got it all over. It's down in my boots. I can feel it squishing between my toes...

Amazing what just 3L of LN2 will get you... Now go get more of the "cold sauce" and make this chip squeal hard.

Very nice Matt... Now time to whip out the 8 core chip and go for 8GHz+

That second video gave me a bit of wood!... This is just F'n amazing; and on "non-final" units nonetheless; just imagine what the Rev3 units will be capable of... I see 9+ submissions in the near future for sure. And now we just wait and hope efficiency is at, or at least near that of SB.

Hot diggity!.... Good going Opty. This one may just be the one that nails it for us.

LOL Opty.... To be fair to Shrimp; he's running a dual core cpu with a 6850 gpu; and even though he was on LN2 I could bring my 955BE pretty close to the clock speeds he got with his 565 so my two extra cores, the better GPU and the faster/tighter ram gave me the edge on that one... LN2 did not matter much on this one for him. Having said that; I'm sure some of his teammates are already planning how to take K10 back from us, but I welcome the competition.... It just forces me to keep tweaking so I can find those extra points.

Waaaaay to go TJ.

Of course! And I still haven't gone cold with the chip so you best bring it my man.

Oh... so you've taken first blood with the subzero stuff... Ok. I guess I'll have to get my pot and throw some subzero runs together.