HWBOT Rev.4 - The Plan.

[Bobnova]

The problem i have with the proposed team rankings is that the CPUs that give good points are few in number.

E8xxx, e6600, q6600, i7 920, and that's really about it.

The other CPUs just aren't worth much. I would be much more positive about the new rankings if the points calculation for less popular hardware was changed, as it is you have to be top3 to top5 to get good points until there are 200-300 submissions for a benchmark.

That makes it extremely hard if you're on anything but LN2 with whatever motherboard that chip loves, and/or if your chip isn't a golden sort of thing.

 

If the points tapered off more slowly, the new team format would work a lot better.

I still don't like it, but i can see the point of it at least.

[SoF]

I think we have different opinions here but let's just make it more simple: team rankings in the way planned are not reflecting any kind of "team-ranking" but only individuals best results...so we can remove team rankings completely - out, over, end....would be fine for me - friendship between all teams as there is no competition between teams directly...why not, could save a lot trouble

[euklidis]

So we first must remove the motivation from the new members to see If this is going to work.

[MattNo5ss]

This is a valid point. One thing we were playing with (concept) was to have a similar split up for teams as we had for users where one team has both an Xtreme part and an ambient part. This situation is a bit more complex coding-wise, but not completely undoable.

 

Another idea would be to have subteams and larger 'mother' teams. This would be the opposite of the current strategy of having one huge team and trying to enlist as many people as possible. Something like:

 

- OC Forums

-- OC Forums LN2 Boys

-- OC Forums "we don't need no liquid nitrogen"

-- OC Forums "I like them old and cheap"

 

But that makes things more complicated as well.

 

Thanks for the response. Something like that is exactly what I was thinking would happen anyways. Once the sub-zero guys get all the team's points, then the ambient guys would split off and make a "OC Forums Ambient" benching team.

 

The mother and sub teams idea is interesting, especially if the points from each sub team contribute to the mother team's point total. So, would there just be 2 divisions, sub-zero and ambient? Or, a division for each type of cooling, LN2, Dice, Phase, H2O, Air, etc.?

 

Sorry I didn't respond earlier in the thread, but ~10 pages of mostly **** puts a distance between posts pretty quickly...

[Leeghoofd]

The proposed team ranking will be a best off what your team can do...

 

Which is sometimes a more honest reflection then what we are seeing now Christopher SOFius. Ofcourse it's not only about hardware sharing.

 

But an example of the state we are in :

 

I even see hardware sharing between different teams, just check out the TOP 6 in the ATI Radeon 4290 scores for 3Dmark06... backgrounds, icons, hardware matches... hell even some dates ; Sorry but this kindda crap has to end.

 

But where does the Hwbot staff start ? I'm glad I'm not in their position, as it will be pretty hard to get everybody's brain dialed in...

 

So we first must remove the motivation from the new members to see If this is going to work.

 

So what did motivate you to be in Hellas team ? To be in the top 3 ? To contribute ? Or to learn stuff and have fun ?

 

Seems you forgot the FUN factor a while ago man... it's a freaking hobby not a way of life !!

Edited September 19, 2010 by Leeghoofd

[Massman]

I blame the names of the corporations shown on the bot's frontpage for this, not the bot's staff. In fact I know it can't be fun for them either.

 

The thing is ... you shouldn't. Not many people realize this, but if it wasn't for the three MFCs stepping up and support the development, it's very likely that HWBOT would not have been up anymore. The running costs just kept on growing and investments of previous years never got covered. In the end, it's thanks to the three corporations on the front page that this site still exists .

 

If you want to be angry at anyone, it should be those MFCs that think it's okay to use this site for marketing and research, but have no interest in supporting the development. Those are the ones that make the financial situations of the site a problem, not the ones that support us.

 

Also, I don't really understand all the hatred towards corporations to begin with. Everyone needs to understand that for most of the hardware manufacturers, extreme overclocking is something very new. This means that things get fucked up sometimes (competitions for instance); the important thing is to learn from the mistakes and try to avoid them in the future. That's precisly the reason why with this revision I've pro-actively enquired the partners what they think about it: that's right - hwbot invited the manufacturers to talk about the next revision. Not the other way around.

 

If we want to improve the overclocking game, we need to take into account that both manufacturers as individuals are interested in playing. Excluding either is pointless, therefore we can only embrace both. In other words: try to find a solution that both parties can be happy with.

 

I can take a lot of shit from a lot of people, but when I see people claim that the only reason things change is to 'make more money' ... well, it pretty much breaks me in half and makes me think whether it's worth to put this much time/effort in trying to build bridges ...

[SoF]

The proposed team ranking will be a best off what your team can do...

Which is sometimes a more honest reflection then what we are seeing now Christopher SOFius. Ofcourse it's not only about hardware sharing.

 

But an example of the state we are in :

I even see hardware sharing between different teams, just check out the TOP 6 in the ATI Radeon 4290 scores for 3Dmark06... backgrounds, icons, hardware matches... hell even some dates ; Sorry but this kindda crap has to end.

 

But where does the Hwbot staff start ? I'm glad I'm not in their position, as it will be pretty hard to get everybody's brain dialed in...

 

Fully agree on the second part but I can't see the benefit of the new calculation method even your explanation has a point after reading it some more times. anyway as I said it can be removed completely I think I expressed how important it is in the end for me personally. still it is an important point as long as the ranking exists

[euklidis]

The proposed team ranking will be a best off what your team can do...

 

Which is sometimes a more honest reflection then what we are seeing now Christopher SOFius. Ofcourse it's not only about hardware sharing.

 

But an example of the state we are in :

 

I even see hardware sharing between different teams, just check out the TOP 6 in the ATI Radeon 4290 scores for 3Dmark06... backgrounds, icons, hardware matches... hell even some dates ; Sorry but this kindda crap has to end.

 

But where does the Hwbot staff start ? I'm glad I'm not in their position, as it will be pretty hard to get everybody's brain dialed in...

 

 

 

So what did motivate you to be in Hellas team ? To be in the top 3 ? To contribute ? Or to learn stuff and have fun ?

 

 

Seems you forgot the FUN factor a while ago man... it's a freaking hobby not a way of life !!

 

I am friend with most If the guys In my team, and we are having fun together benching or going out for q coffee. The feeling that I contribute to somethint made me trying to become better. Competing with others makes it funnier and more interesting. New If you wannna offer something to your team you have to buy toner of hw and become the best. That leaves enthusiasm out of the game.

[bazx]

your problem is how you want to fund hwbot

 

if you go with manufactures you will be bent over and told to touch your toes

 

if hwbot need support to survive it should put a small $2 a year subscription on the service

 

and stay in control of its self

[Massman]

your problem is how you want to fund hwbot

 

if you go with manufactures you will be bent over and told to touch your toes

 

You seem to fail to grasp the complexity of the situation. We don't just want to work with manufacturers to get more money, we also want to work with them so we can guide them within the overclocking community. If there's an actual business relationship, there's a way to explain WHY the community doesn't like MFCs screwing up competitions, for instance.

 

As I said before: ignoring the manufacturers's wish to use overclocking for marketing is the wrong move. It's important that they actually understand what's going on in the community. Just to give a small example: MFCs have a hard time understanding that the overclocking competitions with high-end hardware are less interesting than competitions with cheap stuff. Or that it's not really motivating to get a R5870 as prize if you need the same model to compete.

 

Again, we're working not FOR manufacturers, but WITH them .

[Leeghoofd]

How much money, let me rephrase it, red money do you think is involved Bazx ?

 

Think you need to rethink it...

 

Weren't you the guy from the MSI F1 OC team ? Did you sell out then ?

Edited September 19, 2010 by Leeghoofd

[bazx]

i think what you just said is more to do with your own need to talk with manufacturer

 

when i started to bench there was no manufacture interest in us

 

and the longer i have been around overclocking the more i realised that we don't need them

[bazx]

How much money, let me rephrase it, red money do you think is invloved Bazx ?

 

Think you need to rethnk it...

 

i am a little more savy then you give me credit for

 

you put a price on it and we will see what can be done

[RoccoESA]

- Live overclocking competitions affecting your point total.

 

I cannot understand - has which with the achievement overclocking to do - why gives points for this

 

 

 

sorry 4 my bad english - i translate with babelfish

[Massman]

Ok BazX, you're also on my ignore-list.

[[GF]Duke]

Why wait for a public event where i have to be on my best behavior. It's quite obvious when I am there for a manufacturer I can't mix it with personal problems

 

Convenient for you I guess.

 

Conveneint for me I can always go to your house if your afraid to come to mine.

 

What you want a confrontation? That wasn't what i was saying at all. See your reading into something that wasn't there. Sort of like the statement you made "I don't think you would want that to happen". You see how that goes? End of discussion. Plz get on topic. BTW everyone on my team told me to edit that post because it insinuated without pointing a finger in any way. Like yours did.

 

Massman, my apologies for the trash. It won't happen anymore.

Edited September 19, 2010 by [GF]Duke

[bazx]

i have been on that list for many years

 

it does not change anything

[Blutregen]

I think we should go back to topic: constructive criticism on Rev4.

 

How HWBot fund the site should not be part of this - perhaps it can be discussed in another thread ?

 

@Massman:

If there is a possibility for the community to help - maybe you can think about it and make a suggestion how this could be realized.

[Bustah]

you invited manufacturers to discuss where the site was going? what about the guys that put in years of helping to build up the database? the users. they are seeing problems with the new revision, will they be listened to and action-ed. I see the vast majority posting in this thread against [overwhelmingly] the team points changes for example.

 

cmon mass listen to the people, even charge a sub fee, i'd be happy to pay it, but not this please, it will kill team motivation.

[bazx]

I think we should go back to topic: constructive criticism on Rev4.

 

How HWBot fund the site should not be part of this - perhaps it can be discussed in another thread ?

 

@Massman:

If there is a possibility for the community to help - maybe you can think about it and make a suggestion how this could be realized.

 

rev 4 is about funding

[Massman]

you invited manufacturers to discuss where the site was going? what about the guys that put in years of helping to build up the database? the users. they are seeing problems with the new revision, will they be listened to and action-ed. I see the vast majority posting in this thread against [overwhelmingly] the team points changes for example.

 

cmon mass listen to the people, even charge a sub fee, i'd be happy to pay it, but not this please, it will kill team motivation.

 

Obviously they will be addressed and discussed ... you don't need to pay any money for that. All I ask for is that instead of producing random crap, people would just post the point of issue.

 

No offense to those that actually did come forward with a decent reply .

 

//edit: the reason why we spoke with manufacturers first is because the relationship between us and manufacturers is not as long-standing as the one we have with the community. Usually, we can get decent feedback from the community quite rapidly, whereas with manufacturers it's sometimes a bit more difficult. Also, the eta was set at 2011, which is like in 3 months if everything goes REALLY fast. It's quite likely it's going to take a bit longer to actually put it in production (designer, etc). It's not as if we just launched it and said 'here you go' ...

[Leeghoofd]

People need to get the focus off the idea that this new REV is steered by the companies...

 

This Rev4 is intended to correct some major flaws that have happened in the past... being it albeit a bit harsh. This ain' texactly race horses Bazx... though it might reflect it sometimes

 

So eg by creating a rule that sort of limits the amount of hardware bought by a team will make the manufacturers benefit ? Pure logic then : As a result they will put more money into Hwbot. The latter will impose even more rules :eg buy only the cheap stuff. As a result even more money rolls in..

 

I don't get it... do you ?

 

I kindda like this, even more than with the F1 OC... makes me wanna screaaaaaaaaaaam

Edited September 19, 2010 by Leeghoofd

[RoccoESA]

a simply possibility to avoid hw-sharing is the indication serial of the hardware (for example with a picture)

[bazx]

there a very few people that benefit form manufacturing input so why do we care what they think?

[KONAKONA]

I think you never read or understood the rules. It's due to this sharing attitude that we are now ending up with a pilestack of new rules. And now you start to complain ? (I only quoted this post, your other post is even more obvious of rule violation)

 

Do I look like I'm the kind of person who has ever gotten good hardware for free? All of the hardware I've ever gotten has been either bought at a reasonable price or traded for other hardware of equal value, except for a netbook I got for free once. That netbook wasn't a golden sample either. If I did participate in hardware sharing I'd at least have some global points by now.

 

Regardless of the current rules, the basic idea of not allowing hardware sharing seems flawed. Overclocking is based just as much on what hardware you have as it is the skill you have to overclock it. Not just how well the CPU/GPU clocks, but the motherboard, ram, cooling, etc. You have to have the knowledge for what parts to get and where to get them as well as the cash to pay for them. If you have the knowledge to get them temporarily from someone without paying anything, then good for you. That's your advantage. Chances are though if you aren't paying for it then you don't have the hardware to back up a golden CPU/GPU then you aren't going to have the right hardware under or on top of it anyway.

 

I've yet to hear any good reasons to prevent hardware sharing other than "What about people who don't get hardware" and "Go buy your own".