How to fix the rankings :)

[Alan_Alberino]

I don't think works long-term.

 

No matter how obsolete the e.g... 780Ti gets, it will always be ranked against the latest top-end, but it would compare well against the mid-range of the next gen.

 

I am still not reading posts properly, clearly. Fan noise + music + forums.... bad mix.

 

Now 780Ti competes in globals against Titan X Pascal, so it's the same than now, I think it's the best way to separe graphics card without changing too much the actual system and making a complicated system with ROPs or similar things that lot of new users don't know and will complicate the understanding of HWBOT rankings

[K404]

Long term is not an issue since it's globals we're talking. We don't reclassify an old 4 core CPU as a 2 core just because there is a new 2 core that performs as well as the old 4 core one. You want globals in high-end/mid-end whatever, buy a last gen GPU. You want to bench for longer lasting point, go hw-points.

 

If long term doesn't matter then why is this conversation happening in the first place?

 

Card A is released at price X. The second it is replaced at the same price point, it becomes just as uncompetitive to global as the current situation.

 

Using price as a defining factor, there is the option here of making hardware stay competitive for much longer and allowing users to get FAR better value for money if they hold onto their hardware for a few years.

[Alan_Alberino]

there is the option here of making hardware stay competitive for much longer and allowing users to get FAR better value for money if they hold onto their hardware for a few years.

 

That is why hardware points exist

[Rauf]

@Rauf, how do you feel about using MSRP at launch as metric?

Sounds perfect to me. What is relevant is prize and performance. Since prize will always follow performance this way to categorize will handle itself.

[buildzoid]

I also like the price braket segmentation based on MSRP.

 

By just implementing a MSRP segmentation you will have people going for GP with say 250$ cards, 500$ and 750$ cards. The by product of this will be that the best card in each price braket each year would get more submissions which would boost the HW point value and so it would be more relevant to bench in a year or 2.

 

For example if we did divisions of:

0 -150

150-300

301-450

451-600

601-750

751+

 

Then right now people would bench the RX 460 in the 150$ bracket, 480 and 1060 for 300$ bracket, GTX 1070 for 450$ bracket, GTX 1080, Fury, Nano, GTX 980 for 600$ bracket, 980Ti for 750$ braket and TITANs for 751+

 

The end reult would be that all these cards would get more subs so in a year they would have a relevant amount of HWpoints. Multi GPU setups would just shifted up by the cost of the GPUs. So 2 RX 480s would be in the 451-600$ bracket and 4 of them would be fighting in the GTX TITAN arena. IMO that would work great. More people benching more cards is IMO always a good thing and it would also make OCing more accessible to "mere mortals" who can't buy a TITAN.

 

I've personally decided to just bench what ever the hell I want without worrying about points. But for people who do care about points this would IMO spice things up as there would be a lot more viable hardware each year to choose from.

[Alan_Alberino]

I also like the price braket segmentation based on MSRP.

 

By just implementing a MSRP segmentation you will have people going for GP with say 250$ cards, 500$ and 750$ cards. The by product of this will be that the best card in each price braket each year would get more submissions which would boost the HW point value and so it would be more relevant to bench in a year or 2.

 

For example if we did divisions of:

0 -150

150-300

301-450

451-600

601-750

751+

 

Then right now people would bench the RX 460 in the 150$ bracket, 480 and 1060 for 300$ bracket, GTX 1070 for 450$ bracket, GTX 1080, Fury, Nano, GTX 980 for 600$ bracket, 980Ti for 750$ braket and TITANs for 751+

 

The end reult would be that all these cards would get more subs so in a year they would have a relevant amount of HWpoints. Multi GPU setups would just shifted up by the cost of the GPUs. So 2 RX 480s would be in the 451-600$ bracket and 4 of them would be fighting in the GTX TITAN arena. IMO that would work great. More people benching more cards is IMO always a good thing and it would also make OCing more accessible to "mere mortals" who can't buy a TITAN.

 

I've personally decided to just bench what ever the hell I want without worrying about points. But for people who do care about points this would IMO spice things up as there would be a lot more viable hardware each year to choose from.

 

I think too much segmentation looses the concept of global, even as I said when I gave the price dividing idea I edited the post later too make only two big categories: Less than 750, and more than 750...

 

Global points right now are obtained comparing with every existing piece of hardware, too much categories would make it very easy to get globals for everyone and they would lose the concept of globals...

 

From another point of view, this would expand modding mid-end cards and putting them under LN2, which will be more fun for the users who know how to mod a card, but it will be more difficult for enthusiast users that don't know how to mod a card to get a good place even in a hardware category of a mid-range card...

[K404]

That is why hardware points exist

 

I've wanted to say that in my last few posts. People want more global points but don't like the cost.

 

If the only deciding factor is launch price, then a card has it's one time as a global player, then is only useful for hardware points.

 

Which is pretty much how it is now.

 

Adding more sub-global DOES give more cards a chance to shine and gives more cards popularity, which will help their hardware points when they're globally useless.

 

 

BUT

 

more cards could be worth more for longer! Using the same classification criteria! Why is that being ignored? People still game using (example) GTX680 because they are still saving for GTX1060 or whatever comes next. They would still be told that what they have is only good for hardware points.

 

....and that isn't how real-life PC hardware is used.

 

I'm not saying the idea is bad, i'm saying that it can do more than the original suggestion

[mickulty]

I hadn't thought of the effect of people going for globals on hardware points. That makes the prospect of all cards still becoming obsolete with new releases in their price range a bit more palatable. I don't envy whoever has to collect price information for every GPU on hwbot though and I'm still not sure what would happen to the rebrands like 7970 ($549) -> 280X ($300) that are currently having their categories merged - do you screw over the 'new' card by keeping it in the high category, or give an unfair advantage to the old card by dropping it to the price point of the rebrand?

 

BUT

 

more cards could be worth more for longer! Using the same classification criteria! Why is that being ignored? People still game using (example) GTX680 because they are still saving for GTX1060 or whatever comes next. They would still be told that what they have is only good for hardware points.

 

....and that isn't how real-life PC hardware is used.

 

I'm not saying the idea is bad, i'm saying that it can do more than the original suggestion

 

A 680 has 32 ROPs, so the only more recent nvidia cards it'd be against are 960s and 950s and that's a pretty fair fight

 

ROPs may be a bit technical but it's easy to look them up, they're in wikipedia's lists of nvidia and ati stuff. In fact, once people overcome the innate fear of a vaguely technical term it's at worst equally easy to find out as launch MSRP and in nearly all cases (lol 970) a figure that carries more certainty than MSRP does with modern shenanigans like 4GB unicorns and FE cards.

[K404]

Now 780Ti competes in globals against Titan X Pascal

 

 

You are thinking too literally. It was an example. As your idea stands, 780Ti will have to compete against... I don't know... GTX2080, 3080, Fury8X

 

If you are putting forward an idea like this, you have to spin the idea out years into the future

[buildzoid]

I think too much segmentation looses the concept of global, even as I said when I gave the price dividing idea I edited the post later too make only two big categories: Less than 750, and more than 750...

 

Global points right now are obtained comparing with every existing piece of hardware, too much categories would make it very easy to get globals for everyone and they would lose the concept of globals...

 

From another point of view, this would expand modding mid-end cards and putting them under LN2, which will be more fun for the users who know how to mod a card, but it will be more difficult for enthusiast users that don't know how to mod a card to get a good place even in a hardware category of a mid-range card...

 

To be fair as of right now mid range cards are completely under represented on HWbot. No one benches them. There are 17 submissions for Firestrike on the RX 480. One of the most popular cards in the Steam HW survey the GTX 960 has 84 Firestrike subs here on HWbot. So we aren't really gonna harm anyone because there isn't anyone to harm to start with.

 

On the other hand this sort of heavy price point segmentation would hopefully get people to buy low end cards to practice modding with and then move up or stay with the low end stuff.

 

I don't know if these price segmentation should get global points or perhaps some whole new points like class points or something. However as of right now my main gripe with HWbot is that there are too few ways to earn points. You either bench old stuff for HWpoints or ultra high end stuff for global points. There is no space for benching what I would consider relevant hardware here. A 1500mhz GTX 980 Ti is worth about 20 global points in Firestrike a 1500mhz GTX 960 which is similarly difficult to achieve is worth an incredible 4.5 HWpoints. If I was the guy with the 960 I'd be pretty annoyed. But I'd be even more annoyed if I had a 380. Which is the same performance and price range as the 380 but worth even less points because there's like 10 people with the card on HWbot and so even if I got first I'd get 2 points.

 

I'm not saying the MSRP thing is the best way but I'm just saying I want to see a system where current gen midrange hardware is actually worth benching for everyone.

[Guest cowgut]

why is it when a new high end piece of hardware comes out craps on the older scores with ln2 with just water or air people call for change?

 

whats next? ?

they have hardware points just forget global till a few years and your 480 will have some hardware weight

all the money you spend on vga's and gp's is always short lived what else is new.

 

its just as bad as giving more points because the high end is more sxpensive.

 

so ok a get a 1200usd vga I want more points then not less .

see that's stupid to use cost at all,cant afford the big toys then go bowling or go play with older hardware

stop screwing with gpu global points we all know its for high dollar cards always has been

Edited August 21, 2016 by cowgut

[Guest cowgut]

Previous TITAN: vendors had branded cards. Current TITAN: vendors have no branded cards. It's only interesting to try to aim for OC marketing if you have branded cards (even if it's just a sticker).

 

 

 

Hmmm ... maybe vendor globals is something to consider.

 

you nuts? ok then so then we can have 6 different classes in each league to?

guys that are good woth dry ice guy that are just ok with dry ice guys that suck with dry ice.

oh then add the day it was run at like the best score on a Tuesday or sunday lol if it gets weird you can add am and pm classes to the league

 

 

ok then why don't you close all hardware rankings for vgs'a unless they have the cpu that comes out no more then 1 year after it?

you know then maybe no 88gts with intel cpu's passed the c2d?

so guys cant get a legacy stock(or w/e cooling) gpu pair it with a modern cpu on ln2 and take the hardware ranks?

let the guys go play for points in that oc sports thing you have.

sure some change or tweeks has to be done some times but holy shit this has to stop

[Elkim]

Thats a another interesting idea. We want more people involved in benching. Many of those people doesnt have money to buy modern hw, so they could bench old hw and get the points. But, they dont because there are always submits with old cards and 6700k on ln2.

[havli]

I don't think this is going to work... Let's say there are 15 GPU generations, so in order to bench them all you must own 15+ CPUs and similar amount of boards? That is even less affordable than single 6700k. Also running C2D @ LN2 might be more expensive than for example 6600k @ air, while being slower.

[Guest cowgut]

yeah welcome to benchmarking^

 

 

Am I being thick or too simplistic? Why does any of that matter?

 

It's a legit card, available to anyone with the money. Same as any other previous card. Marketing doesn't factor into my considerations as to whether something is worthy or not

 

but but...the name brand pro's are not getting them.

then if an asus or msi bencher got one he would have to pay for it himself like some sorry poor old regular bencher.

 

I am still waiting for a tin write up but I don't think it will happen since no evga cards.

 

as for the 480????who the bunny said you cant bench it? nothing is stopping anyone from playing with the card....or you have points for only motivation?

[Elkim]

I don't think this is going to work... Let's say there are 15 GPU generations, so in order to bench them all you must own 15+ CPUs and similar amount of boards? That is even less affordable than single 6700k. Also running C2D @ LN2 might be more expensive than for example 6600k @ air, while being slower.

 

 

 

Good point forget that

 

yeah welcome to benchmarking^

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

but but...the name brand pro's are not getting them.

 

then if an asus or msi bencher got one he would have to pay for it himself like some sorry poor old regular bencher.

 

MSI canceled their OC program in june AFAIK

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited August 21, 2016 by Elkim

[mickulty]

why is it when a new high end piece of hardware comes out craps on the older scores with ln2 with just water or air people call for change?

 

whats next? ?

they have hardware points just forget global till a few years and your 480 will have some hardware weight

all the money you spend on vga's and gp's is always short lived what else is new.

 

its just as bad as giving more points because the high end is more sxpensive.

 

so ok a get a 1200usd vga I want more points then not less .

see that's stupid to use cost at all,cant afford the big toys then go bowling or go play with older hardware

stop screwing with gpu global points we all know its for high dollar cards always has been

 

I think this thread is predicated on the idea that it would be nice if 3D benching wasn't a case of having to buy thousands of dollars worth of hardware or just 'go bowling' instead.

 

What you have to remember is back in 2010 the GTX 580 was only $500 and you could be reasonably competitive with a 570 at $330. Then come late 2011 we had the 7970 at $550 and the 7950 close to it and at $450. But now we have a situation where some of the time you need to pay $1200 to be competitive, and the rest of the time the sub-titan cards are $650+. This is not how it's always been, the market has changed drastically.

 

The 2D rankings are and continue to be perfectly fine with per-core categories and are doing an excellent job of making everything from old singlecore semprons and athlon/phenom X3s to i3s, i7s and LGA2011 i7s viable. Surely just wanting a comparable situation for 3D rankings is not such a horrifying goal?

 

It would be a problem if better-separated rankings ended up kneecapping Titan scores. Perhaps at the moment a simple solution would be an expansion of WR points so the best Titan users are still properly rewarded? If nothing else though, if it becomes the case that a 1060 is the card you need for the most points, I'm sure a lot more titan users could afford a 1060 than the number of 1060 users who could afford a titan

 

By the by, here's a thought experiment for you. Imagine we had 3D division, based on something like ROP count or launch MSRP (I still think ROP count makes way more sense because it's a tech spec, launch price is a bit arbitrary). Imagine the 1060 and 1080 are currently the two best GPUs for global points. Now imagine someone wades in and says "I think the 3D global ranks should be merged, I paid $1200 for my Titan XP, I want more global points dammit! 1060 users should stop trying to compete and just go bowling!". Imagine how well that would go down

[Guest cowgut]

if you cant play globals be a hardware master.

please no talk of globals based on something like ROP count or launch MSRP or brand,then its not global.

 

seems some are just hurt they cant afford a top end card

get a used 980ti you can still do well for about 350usd

 

if you want a cheaper hobby then blowing is good right?

\it guys that only would bench a piece of hardware for points that's what we should get changed .

benchmarking is for fun not points when some learn that it will fix itself.

so you have a 480 or 1060 yet?

seem like ok cards to play with maybe see points in a few years or so,but if you want points today from a new card you have to pay.

don't get me wrong the best cards are priced way too high but is life.

Edited August 22, 2016 by cowgut

[mickulty]

if you cant play globals be a hardware master.

 

The difference between the current hardware #1 and #2 is globals, FYI.

 

please no talk of globals based on something like ROP count or launch MSRP or brand,then its not global.

 

The same could be said of globals based on CPU cores, surely? I think maybe it's WR points you're thinking of that aren't divided by any aspect of hardware specs.

 

seems some are just hurt they cant afford a top end card

get a used 980ti you can still do well for about 350usd

 

if you want a cheaper hobby then blowing is good right?

 

I'm not sure the "you're just bitter you can't buy a fair chance" attitude is especially helpful. The cheapest 980Ti on ebay.com that doesn't use the reference PCB is $400 but even if it was only $350 to compete that's still a lot for just the cost of entry.

 

\it guys that only would bench a piece of hardware for points that's what we should get changed .

benchmarking is for fun not points when some learn that it will fix itself.

 

Of course points matter - if they don't why are you defending the status quo, surely you shouldn't care? A big part of the issue is right now if you're not loaded but like 3D you have to choose between a lot of old hardware (fun) or putting everything into only stuff that gets globals (points). That's not a great tradeoff for people to have to make, and surely if it can be made so you don't have to sacrifice fun to do well on points that's worthwhile?

 

so you have a 480 or 1060 yet?

seem like ok cards to play with maybe see points in a few years or so,

 

No, I don't - see above. My recent GPU purchases are a 4850, 570, 6450, 8800 ultra, 2900 pro, 2600 XT, pair of 4890s, 6800 gt, GTX 275, Radeon 7000, Radeon 9250 and a 9800 GT. Together they add up to the same price as a 4GB RX 480. I could have just got the RX 480 instead of all that, but then I'd have only had one piece of hardware to play with and I'd have been scared of breaking it. This way I have 13 different cards to play with.

 

but if you want points today from a new card you have to pay.

don't get me wrong the best cards are priced way too high but is life.

 

If there was no better way I'd agree. This thread isn't here to whine and complain, though. This thread is here to try and find a better way. And if we can find one - IMO we have - then the idea that the status quo is 'just the way it is' is the worst reason imaginable not to go for it because if we had the proposed system already it'd be equally applicable against a move to the system you're defending.

 

If you have any constructive feedback on the issues - whether SPs should be involved, cost vs ROPs, how best to futureproof any grouping system, or for that matter any arguments in favour of the current system that are based on its merits and not its position as the current system - I'd be really interested to hear it

[ObscureParadox_3XS]

@Rauf, how do you feel about using MSRP at launch as metric?

 

not sure how this fixes the issue at hand honestly.

 

Lets take the last generation of cards as an example, the 980 and 970 would most probably be in the same price category as the 980Ti since their prices were slightly inflated due to them being the fastest products on offer at the time. Then Titan X comes along, is realised for a stupid price. Is in it's own category, great. But then 980TI is released and is in the same category as the 980 and 970 no doubt so the bitching will probably start all over again as those with money can capitalise on the easy points with the Titan X being in its own category and the 980Ti dominating its category easily.

 

TL:DR This doesn't seem like a solution but more of a hornets nest to a whole new era of "money wins in overclocking" since your rich OC'ers will LN2 everything, bench all of the new GPU categories with their golden CPUs so the little guy can't even get close anyway.

 

I think we just need to accept that with the way Nvidia release their products there will be a 2 month period where H20 will compete with LN2 until they release their top "Ti" card.

 

Also if we want to split AMD and Nvidia apart then we might as well do it on the CPU side too.

 

I think people have decent ideas but are not really thinking them fully through here. Yes what we have is not perfect, but that is simply because AMD are not competitive right now. Most of the issues we have with leaderboard rankings etc all come down to the fact that Nvidia and Intel have a near monopoly in their respective areas so the price of the products are obscene now.

[mickulty]

not sure how this fixes the issue at hand honestly.

 

Lets take the last generation of cards as an example, the 980 and 970 would most probably be in the same price category as the 980Ti since their prices were slightly inflated due to them being the fastest products on offer at the time. Then Titan X comes along, is realised for a stupid price. Is in it's own category, great. But then 980TI is released and is in the same category as the 980 and 970 no doubt so the bunnying will probably start all over again as those with money can capitalise on the easy points with the Titan X being in its own category and the 980Ti dominating its category easily.

 

TL:DR This doesn't seem like a solution but more of a hornets nest to a whole new era of "money wins in overclocking" since your rich OC'ers will LN2 everything, bench all of the new GPU categories with their golden CPUs so the little guy can't even get close anyway.

 

I agree that the 980Ti ending up categorised alongside the 980 would be bad. ROP count would suffer less from this issue

 

You're 100% right about the top still being ruled as much by dollars as dewars but you'd have new low-midrange categories that should hopefully get a lot of participation and would be somewhat insulated. Hopefully they'd be less CPU dependent in some benchmarks too since the GPUs would be slower.

 

Also if we want to split AMD and Nvidia apart then we might as well do it on the CPU side too.

 

I think people have decent ideas but are not really thinking them fully through here. Yes what we have is not perfect, but that is simply because AMD are not competitive right now. Most of the issues we have with leaderboard rankings etc all come down to the fact that Nvidia and Intel have a near monopoly in their respective areas so the price of the products are obscene now.

 

This is an argument that I've seen put forward in a lot of places, starting in 'why we need amd' blog posts and moving into intel and nvidia fanboys on reddit upset about 6950x/titan prices ranting at AMD for allowing it to happen rather than blaming the company actually setting the prices despite the fact that they have no intention to actually consider an AMD product.

 

The thing is, it's a duopoly. AMD started the overpricing shenanigans with original Athlon FX and it's a pattern that's been followed on and off since. I guess arguably Asus started it on GPUs with ares/mars? But anyway, back in the days of 'small chip' with the 4870 and 5870 prices were reasonable enough even though amd weren't at all competitive for the high end, more recently with the 600 and 7000 series amd were if anything slightly ahead (in the market, say what you will about unreleased big kepler but that's not the point) but prices climbed noticeably. To be fair there's also an element of silicon just getting more expensive. So, overall, the distortion isn't AMD's fault and AMD having faster products won't magically bring the high end and therefore globals down to $200-300.

[Rauf]

not sure how this fixes the issue at hand honestly.

 

Lets take the last generation of cards as an example, the 980 and 970 would most probably be in the same price category as the 980Ti since their prices were slightly inflated due to them being the fastest products on offer at the time. Then Titan X comes along, is realised for a stupid price. Is in it's own category, great. But then 980TI is released and is in the same category as the 980 and 970 no doubt so the bunnying will probably start all over again as those with money can capitalise on the easy points with the Titan X being in its own category and the 980Ti dominating its category easily.

 

TL:DR This doesn't seem like a solution but more of a hornets nest to a whole new era of "money wins in overclocking" since your rich OC'ers will LN2 everything, bench all of the new GPU categories with their golden CPUs so the little guy can't even get close anyway.

 

I think we just need to accept that with the way Nvidia release their products there will be a 2 month period where H20 will compete with LN2 until they release their top "Ti" card.

 

Also if we want to split AMD and Nvidia apart then we might as well do it on the CPU side too.

 

I think people have decent ideas but are not really thinking them fully through here. Yes what we have is not perfect, but that is simply because AMD are not competitive right now. Most of the issues we have with leaderboard rankings etc all come down to the fact that Nvidia and Intel have a near monopoly in their respective areas so the price of the products are obscene now.

I don't think people actually read through the posts here, because there is lots of misinformation. The thing I find most appealing is that we will create the GPU equivalent of the 4 core cpu category. The most popular category, and thereby the one which gives the most points, will not be decided by hwbot, nvidia or AMD. It will be decided by what has been, and will be, benched the most by the community. My guess is that lower priced GPUs will be most popular, and how can that be a bad thing?

[Strong Island]

I don't think people actually read through the posts here, because there is lots of misinformation. The thing I find most appealing is that we will create the GPU equivalent of the 4 core cpu category. The most popular category, and thereby the one which gives the most points, will not be decided by hwbot, nvidia or AMD. It will be decided by what has been, and will be, benched the most by the community. My guess is that lower priced GPUs will be most popular, and how can that be a bad thing?

 

 

That's all I want also, it sounds amazing and a lot of fun. It's a shame we are not benching a lot of these cards, we could be having a ton of fun.

 

Also I dont think this has anything to do with titan. We have been throwing these ideas around for awhile now.

 

I also think releasing 4k catzilla and fsu will help alot.

 

If you buy a titan right now, there arent even that many non cpu bound benches, so you would need a 8-10 core also.

 

I have enough for one or the other but not both. Who wants to buy a titan, mod it, then compete in like 3 benches. More intensive benches might help.

[ObscureParadox_3XS]

Don't get me wrong guys, I would love to see a system that's better for overall fair/cheaper OC fun. But I don't believe a complete reshuffle of the ranking system like the ones mentioned is the way forward.

 

Also with reagrds to the Higher catagory not necesserily giving a lot of points, you have to remember that older cards like the original titan and a few other super high cost cards will make it in there. Also then do we decide that we will seperate kingpin cards from base models since their price is significantly higher.

 

Please don't mistake my thoughts as simply bashing others ideas to keep the status quo, I just want a fully thought out and easy to understand system that will work in the long term so we're not constantly forced to update the system every 5 or so years. I absolutely appreciate that you guys are trying to come up with ideas to improve on what we have but I don't see anything here thus far which I believe we can advance on to make into the next platform.

[K404]

8 Pages in. Time for a rationalisation.

 

What are we discussing, what's the problem?